Stoner critical of Hayden

Jumkie said:

It’s well enough to say, ‘hey, I think Nicky screwed up my lap’; its quite another thing entirely to say, ‘hey, Nicky screwed up my lap on purpose, intentionally’ (which means he did that for some dubious purpose)…and say it publicly.

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I am fairly sure that was not stoner's point though. His consistent argument is that this is a safety issue, and I believe it is about this for him and not about people screwing up his laps; I also believe he is correct in this view, if exaggerated with some of the specific incidents (I wouldn't necessarily baulk if someone said many of the incidents). Imo he is not saying that nicky is morally reprehensible and deliberately screwed up his lap, but rather that it wasn't accidental that nicky was going slowly on the racing line and hence in stoner's view constituting a safety risk.



This doesn't imply that I think nicky is morally reprehensible btw, just that he does not consider it to be as big a safety issue as stoner. The whole thing does not seem as big for the riders as it is for rossi fans currently bereft of other avenues to criticise stoner; my surmise as I have said previously is that they think stoner has a bee in his bonnet about all of this and don't take it very personally, perhaps also recognising that there is some basis in fact even if he exaggerates the matter.

So ......... is Stoner still dissin away on farmboy? or have they finally gotten over it ....... let me know when they do cos its taking up so much of their time ....... those two crazies ...... going on and on like that.

Jumkie said:

? Taking your reply at face value, it’s seems a bit odd, unless I missed the humor. Is that all you got out of my post Dave? I found it a bit strange that in my previous post you had emphasized, "had", regarding Casey’s potential change in his respect for Nicky, though it seems a rather tangential point to Casey calling Nicky out on his integrity. However, that was NOT the premise of my post, now was it? I had put in bold the part that Casey accuses Nicky of “intentionally” getting in his way, that is, calling into question his integrity. In my last take, to which you replied above, it seems you may have missed my point or grossly over simplified it. Allow me to present a scenario; you have your takes as a journalist and as a fan, have you have ever misspoke or have all your official takes been flawless? Now imagine if you did make a mistake and a fellow accused your misspeak as “intentional” for some dubious purpose (otherwise, what’s the point of saying a mistake is intentional), despite you saying there was nothing there to address, not only would your accuser be saying you lied, but he’d be calling out your integrity publicly. So then, if you ever make a mistake, even a typo, you’re fair game to be accused of “intentionally” misleading your readers, for some dubious unforeseen attempt perhaps. Rather absurd don’t you think? That’s what I’m saying Casey did. It’s well enough to say, ‘hey, I think Nicky screwed up my lap’; its quite another thing entirely to say, ‘hey, Nicky screwed up my lap on purpose, intentionally’ (which means he did that for some dubious purpose)…and say it publicly.

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Calling him out on his integrity? I'm pretty sure Stoner never thought that was what he was doing. He thought he was just criticizing Hayden for getting in the way, and that Hayden was getting in the way deliberately trying to get a tow. I don't think Stoner spent much time thinking about Hayden's honor or integrity. Stoner was being a .... about someone being on the racing line, he's always being a .... about someone being on the racing line. He has a point, it's pretty dangerous, but that doesn't mean he's not being a .... about it. After every debrief when Stoner complains about another rider (and it's almost every race weekend), the press come out shaking their heads, mystified about his complaints. The man is routinely half a second quicker than the rest of field, yet he's fussing about riders who are 1 or 2 seconds a lap slower than him getting a tow, laying into them for being dangerous. Then, of course, the press all scuttle away and write sensationalist stories with the gold Stoner has just handed them.



For what it's worth, what I took away from that complaint was that Stoner was surprised at Hayden, that he regards Hayden as someone who is much better than that. Stoner never questions the integrity of riders like Hector Barbera because he doesn't think they have any, they're always looking for a tow and they're don't care that they're being dangerous and in the way.



For the record, I have been accused of misrepresenting some facts intentionally (most notably Burgess' "80 seconds" quote). Mostly, I just think ".... 'em". When I do things wrong (which is all the time) I try to hold my hand up and own up. But what other people think of me is largely irrelevant, and not something I can do much to change.

Kropotkin said:

Calling him out on his integrity? I'm pretty sure Stoner never thought that was what he was doing. He thought he was just criticizing Hayden for getting in the way, and that Hayden was getting in the way deliberately trying to get a tow. I don't think Stoner spent much time thinking about Hayden's honor or integrity. Stoner was being a .... about someone being on the racing line, he's always being a .... about someone being on the racing line. He has a point, it's pretty dangerous, but that doesn't mean he's not being a .... about it. After every debrief when Stoner complains about another rider (and it's almost every race weekend), the press come out shaking their heads, mystified about his complaints. The man is routinely half a second quicker than the rest of field, yet he's fussing about riders who are 1 or 2 seconds a lap slower than him getting a tow, laying into them for being dangerous. Then, of course, the press all scuttle away and write sensationalist stories with the gold Stoner has just handed them.



For what it's worth, what I took away from that complaint was that Stoner was surprised at Hayden, that he regards Hayden as someone who is much better than that. Stoner never questions the integrity of riders like Hector Barbera because he doesn't think they have any, they're always looking for a tow and they're don't care that they're being dangerous and in the way.

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I was going to ask for your take, but anticipated something like this which is typically fair. Fwiw I think stoner's underlying concerns are a mixture of the safety and ruining of pretty laps aspects, and perhaps at least partly formed by riding the notoriously difficult to turn midcorner ducati, but that his stance is consistent and one he believes in.



What do the paddock/other riders think? A sign of his arrogance or that he is a tad eccentric and somewhat obssessed by this issue?

Kropotkin said:

+For the record, I have been accused of misrepresenting some facts intentionally (most notably Burgess' "80 seconds" quote).

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Similar to debates about whether valentino's ambition exceeds or exceeded his talent, whether casey stoner has or had respect for nicky hayden, or how many angels can stand on the head of a pin.



However, whilst I don't think stoner can be expected to start making his press statements in iambic pentameter anytime soon, jb is famously wily and imo made that statement with malice aforethought, leaving wriggle room for plausible deniability. Again imo the implication was clear and was as you interpreted.

Kropotkin said:

For the record, I have been accused of misrepresenting some facts intentionally (most notably Burgess' "80 seconds" quote). Mostly, I just think ".... 'em".

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As always, teaching valuable lessons.

michaelm said:

I was going to ask for your take, but anticipated something like this which is typically fair. Fwiw I think stoner's underlying concerns are a mixture of the safety and ruining of pretty laps aspects, and perhaps at least partly formed by riding the notoriously difficult to turn midcorner ducati.



What do the paddock/other riders think? A sign of his arrogance or that he is a tad eccentric and somewhat obssessed by this issue?

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Other riders think dawdling on line is dangerous too, but Stoner's obsession is overblown. They get pissed off, but accept that all riders are idiots and it's not going to change.

michaelm said:

Similar to debates about whether valentino's ambition exceeds or exceeded his talent, whether casey stoner has or had respect for nicky hayden, or how many angels can stand on the head of a pin.



However, whilst I don't think stoner can be expected to start making his press statements in iambic pentameter anytime soon, jb is famously wily and imo made that statement with malice aforethought, leaving wriggle room for plausible deniability. Again imo the implication was clear and was as you interpreted.

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Here's the trouble, these people - riders, mechanics, team managers - are asked questions and are expected to respond immediately. Little time for thought. Then their words are treated to the kind of exegesis usually reserved for a meeting of the Mecca Qur'an Interpretation Society. It comes with the territory, but that doesn't mean it's reasonable.

Stoner seems to have a very large persecution complex, which seems to get worse the more success he gets. His behaviour is mistifying.



His constant emphasis on safety and others not living up to his rather lofty expectations is certainly bewildering and rather

juxaposed for an individual who races the fastest motorcycles on

the planet for a living! A few screws lose for sure, me thinks.



What is truly amazing is the fact that no one has managed to advise or persuade him to cease this disturbing, and dangerous

behaviour. As I said after the de puniet king hit, a $5000 fine

obviously did .... all, a 2 round ban would sort this out real

quick......personally I hope he continues with his spats, as

eventually he'll pick the wrong guy to .... with and get what he deserves.

is Assen here yet

Kropotkin said:

So you're pissed he had a go at Nicky. Is that about the size of it?

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Kropotkin said:

Other riders think dawdling on line is dangerous too, but Stoner's obsession is overblown. They get pissed off, but accept that all riders are idiots and it's not going to change.

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Krop,



Could (in your opinion) Stoner's obsession be overblown because he was fined for it yet the practice continues?



All Stoner has ever asked for (well, in recent years at least) is consistency and for many, a lack of judicial consistency is far more galling than the act that caused the issue.









Gaz

Gaz said:

Krop,



Could (in your opinion) Stoner's obsession be overblown because he was fined for it yet the practice continues?



All Stoner has ever asked for (well, in recent years at least) is consistency and for many, a lack of judicial consistency is far more galling than the act that caused the issue.









Gaz

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I really don't know. I ask Stoner about it a lot, and I never get an answer that explains his obsession, other than "because it's dangerous!"

Kropotkin said:

I really don't know. I ask Stoner about it a lot, and I never get an answer that explains his obsession, other than "because it's dangerous!"

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So is riding a bike at 200mph. Maybe we should limit the bikes speed and send them out 1 at a time. How does stoner feel about block passing and break checking? You have to work around other riders during a race so why can he get it into his head you have to do the same at other times on track. Casey just wants clear track in quali and the race. Yes he is fast, probably the fastest bloke in motogp but he has to accept he is not the only person out there and deal with it. Sometimes your on pole and get away and end up with clear track to the finish. Sometimes you don't and have to work harder for it. That boy needed more smacks as a kid imo.

Kropotkin said:

I really don't know. I ask Stoner about it a lot, and I never get an answer that explains his obsession, other than "because it's dangerous!"

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The Randy incident I accept as dangerous. The Nicky one was not in my opinion.

Yeah he may have messed up his hot lap a little, but for goodness sake it was only FP3.

He made a mountain out of a molehill & again made himself look like a .........

Absolutely love the way he rides, but getting tired of his hissy fits.

chopperman said:

So is riding a bike at 200mph. Maybe we should limit the bikes speed and send them out 1 at a time. How does stoner feel about block passing and break checking? You have to work around other riders during a race so why can he get it into his head you have to do the same at other times on track. Casey just wants clear track in quali and the race. Yes he is fast, probably the fastest bloke in motogp but he has to accept he is not the only person out there and deal with it. Sometimes your on pole and get away and end up with clear track to the finish. Sometimes you don't and have to work harder for it. That boy needed more smacks as a kid imo.

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When you go out for a practice session Reg. how do you like it when there are folks everywhere just out there plodding around running up laps?



Block passing and Brake checks!! on a road race bike!! at 200kph!!! ..... how do you feel when it happens to you Reg.?

BarryMachine said:

When you go out for a practice session Reg. how do you like it when there are folks everywhere just out there plodding around running up laps?



Block passing and Brake checks!! on a road race bike!! at 200kph!!! ..... how do you feel when it happens to you Reg.?

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This is their job. This is racing. If you cant stand the heat then get out of the kitchen !

chopperman said:

This is their job. This is racing. If you cant stand the heat then get out of the kitchen !

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What is Reg.?



Block passing!?? Brake Checks!!??



Get real Reg.















Thank the living christ they are in the kitchen and not you

BarryMachine said:

What is Reg.?



Block passing!?? Brake Checks!!??



Get real Reg.

Thank the living christ they are in the kitchen and not you

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good point. oh hold on, you didn't actually make one (as usual).