Stoner Cant Match Japanese Might

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mumu37 @ Apr 6 2010, 06:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>On the other hand, they do operate with fewer personnel compared to Yamaha & Honda. Given their performance from the moment they joined, I can't say that they are in a disadvantaged position. I mean they've manage to churn out more radical ideas when it comes to bike design especially on the major components like frame, swing arms and electronics.

Indeed.  Also, a small, focused company is at less risk of falling into the Toyota (F1) Trap ("Leader, leader, who's the hell is the leader?!") and/or self destructing due to an internal political war, as Honda seems to have done.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>If they were struggling somehow (financially, being small, etc), then i'm sure they'd opt for more 'proven'/'conservative' solutions rather than going to radical designs.

Can't agree with that.  Proven / conservative is what the Japanese manufacturers are all about.  If indeed Ducati does have a smaller budget / fewer resources, following the 'proven' course will only guarantee them mediocrity and mid-pack-at-best status.  Only by being truly unique and innovative (and having the competency to pull it off) will they have a chance to lead the field.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bunyip @ Apr 6 2010, 04:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Vermeulins judgement has to be questioned following his decision to go to Kawasaki wsbk when, I,m sure, much better offers were available.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Apr 6 2010, 05:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Also correct I think. CV's decision to go to WSBK on a Kawasaki both initially and even more so now looks to have been extremely ill-advised.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hayden Fan @ Apr 6 2010, 05:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>They had signed Sykes, and were promising to change the way they operate. But like typical Kawasaki racing at a world championship level, they can't do .....
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 6 2010, 05:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>BTW I rate Ichiro Yoda as probably one of the 4 "alien" technicians. Does anyone know what's happened to him? ZX10R development?
The hot word surrounding Vermeulen's signing with Kawasaki was that Yoda was heading up an all-new ZX10R with that radical 360 degree firing order. From everything I've read, that bike is the reason Vermeulen signed on. Considering Yoda is involved and they convinced Vermeulen to sign, I'd imagine it will be a strong package.

Vermeulen is still a very, very talented rider and never got the respect he deserved while in MotoGP. He doesn't strike me as dumb, either. Like I said in another thread, 2010 should be all but written off for anyone on a Kawasaki. Wait 'til next season, then let's see what Vermeulen and Kawasaki are up to. I think he will be in the title hunt, my personal opinion. And anyone who's paid any attention to my opinions in superbikes knows I've never had any faith in Kawasaki in any capacity.

^^Agreed. I just don't understand the comments. If the past has anything to do with the future then the Japanese companies will be sweating blood every time Stoner rolls out of pit lane.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Apr 6 2010, 09:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The hot word surrounding Vermeulen's signing with Kawasaki was that Yoda was heading up an all-new ZX10R with that radical 360 degree firing order. From everything I've read, that bike is the reason Vermeulen signed on. Considering Yoda is involved and they convinced Vermeulen to sign, I'd imagine it will be a strong package.

Vermeulen is still a very, very talented rider and never got the respect he deserved while in MotoGP. He doesn't strike me as dumb, either. Like I said in another thread, 2010 should be all but written off for anyone on a Kawasaki. Wait 'til next season, then let's see what Vermeulen and Kawasaki are up to. I think he will be in the title hunt, my personal opinion. And anyone who's paid any attention to my opinions in superbikes knows I've never had any faith in Kawasaki in any capacity.

Neil Spalding, someone whose opinion I hold in high regard, is adamant that Kawasaki's woes as a manufacturer are not in the engine department. Yoda was part of the M1 development team, and I believe he was responsible for designing an uneven firing order for Kawasaki as well. Spalding believes that Kawasaki have serious issues placing the engine within the frame or building a frame around the engine (whichever it is they do).

If you extrapolate Spalding's opinion of Kawasaki engineering to WSBK, Paul Bird Kawasaki will not see any significant improvement unless they can mate the chassis and the engine properly to unleash the mechanical grip in the tires.

I dont think so, Casey has as much chance as every other top rider and Ducati has the same chances as those Japanese bikes, as long as the season hasn't been started and we haven't seen anything opposite to this.

when the races start and after a few rounds (IF) we see that those Japanese bikes are that far ahead, then we can make up our mind about it, but not yet.

This can say more about Vermi's mentality, than Duc's and Casey's chances.

Austin,
Vermeulin has shown a profound level of poor judgement, but possibly for different reasons............the kawasaki 2011 project may yet be on track, but is it a good idea to:
1) sacrifice a whole year in the hope of a good 2nd year
2) retain too much pride as an ex-motogp rider and override a crappy bike to the extent that you crash and totally feck-up a years racing through injury. Not a good strategy!

I know and most people know about the radical 2011 zx 10, but intent may not guarantee success.
The 600 supersport project ha s performed well, but will the full 1000 mimic the 600,s success? No guarantee. An R1, cbr 1000 or gsxr 1000 contract would have been a safer path to follow.

(PS> Totally off topic...Just watched "The Proposition" . ........a must see( 9.5/10) Nick cave, you genius!)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bunyip @ Apr 6 2010, 10:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ducati is small ,but focussed and has a talented team of engineers.

Vermeulins judgement has to be questioned following his decision to go to Kawasaki wsbk when, I,m sure, much better offers were available.

I also think that CV thinks that, because he found it tough, so must CS find it tough to beat Rossi.
A bit like Mladins take on Spies in reverse.
Im not so sure they are that focussed. All that buggering about with carbon frames and swing arms that there top boy hated and ended up reverting back to the ally one may have cost them another wc. It also put extra stress on there fragile health super star.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rossiofsky @ Apr 7 2010, 12:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I dont think so, Casey has as much chance as every other top rider and Ducati has the same chances as those Japanese bikes, as long as the season hasn't been started and we haven't seen anything opposite to this.

when the races start and after a few rounds (IF) we see that those Japanese bikes are that far ahead, then we can make up our mind about it, but not yet.

This can say more about Vermi's mentality, than Duc's and Casey's chances.

Well, Geonerd was spot on, in fact it's almost exactly what Ducati has been saying since the came into MotoGP. They have to be innovative and different and I think that Vermulen see what's been happening: It's easy to be innovative with a new formula and Ducati had a hit when the 800 first arrived. As the same formula remain the equipment become more equal and that's where the conservative Japanese finally catch up with Ducati.
Yes it's a new rule for reliability this year but if anything it seems to push Ducati into the fold rather than enable them to make new innovative steps.

It's nice to see the results and hear the official press releases after a few races to form an opinion but what's the fun in that.
We are all speculating more or less, don't fool yourself into anything else, and it's all good. The results will be here soon enough.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rossiofsky @ Apr 7 2010, 09:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This can say more about Vermi's mentality, than Duc's and Casey's chances.

Sadly, you may be right.

Anyone who's followed testing or MotoGP for the last three years should realise that, whatever happens, there isn't going to be much in it between Rossi and Stoner, to name just two. So I'm stumped as to why Vermi has made these comments now. Does Capirossi have a huge arse?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bunyip @ Apr 7 2010, 06:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Austin,
Vermeulin has shown a profound level of poor judgement, but possibly for different reasons............the kawasaki 2011 project may yet be on track, but is it a good idea to:
1) sacrifice a whole year in the hope of a good 2nd year
2) retain too much pride as an ex-motogp rider and override a crappy bike to the extent that you crash and totally feck-up a years racing through injury. Not a good strategy!
No doubt about it, it's a head-scratcher. I was hoping that he would land one of the Yamaha Italia or Tem Kate Honda vacancies but that clearly didn't happen. It makes me wonder if there were offers from any of the top teams. I can't imagine they wouldn't make some sort of an effort to sign a former title contender and MotoGP race winner. It's likely a combination of poor/no offers from top teams, the promise of a strong package for 2011, and a healthy contract from Kawasaki.

Sorry to make my point from both sides of the fence. I wasn't happy with the signing, I quite like Vermeulen and wanted him somewhere else. But Kawasaki was his decision and I assume there must be a good reason for it. He chose Suzuki in MotoGP because Barry Sheene told him not to go unless he could get a factory ride. I'm guessing the reasoning behind his Kawasaki signing lies somewhere in my earlier paragraph.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Apr 7 2010, 07:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Im not so sure they are that focussed. All that buggering about with carbon frames and swing arms that there top boy hated and ended up reverting back to the ally one may have cost them another wc. It also put extra stress on there fragile health super star.
From what I gather, the carbon swing arms respond very, very similarly to their aluminum counterparts. The biggest difference is the ease and speed of production of the carbon version. Not sure if the aluminum swing arms is still an option for Stoner.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Apr 7 2010, 03:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>From what I gather, the carbon swing arms respond very, very similarly to their aluminum counterparts. The biggest difference is the ease and speed of production of the carbon version. Not sure if the aluminum swing arms is still an option for Stoner.
Probably not an option now but was in 08/09

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Apr 7 2010, 10:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Probably not an option now but was in 08/09
Yeah, was going to add that I wonder if the aluminum is even available anymore.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Apr 7 2010, 03:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well, Geonerd was spot on, in fact it's almost exactly what Ducati has been saying since the came into MotoGP. They have to be innovative and different and I think that Vermulen see what's been happening: It's easy to be innovative with a new formula and Ducati had a hit when the 800 first arrived. As the same formula remain the equipment become more equal and that's where the conservative Japanese finally catch up with Ducati.
Yes it's a new rule for reliability this year but if anything it seems to push Ducati into the fold rather than enable them to make new innovative steps.

It's nice to see the results and hear the official press releases after a few races to form an opinion but what's the fun in that.
We are all speculating more or less, don't fool yourself into anything else, and it's all good. The results will be here soon enough.


Unlike many fans in here i dont have any knowledge about Engines and bikes, but Vermeulen hasn't said where he gets his idea from.
I also dont have any problems with speculations about the championship.

But Vermeulen is a racer himself and has to know that the form of the pre season testing cant be taken so seriously for the whole season, since all factories update their bikes every week, and their riders learn to adapt their riding styles after a few weeks or months.

how can he come to that conclusion after knowing the results of only 6 test days?
and he says Japanese bikes, while we all saw that in all those 6 days, Ducati with Stoner were only a few tenth's off the pace of Vale, and Honda and Suzuki were nowhere.

if riders were to be affraid based on tests results, then Rossi had to throw the towel in the ring for the last 2 years where Casey was dominating the pre season testings.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rossiofsky @ Apr 8 2010, 08:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Unlike many fans in here i dont have any knowledge about Engines and bikes, but Vermeulen hasn't said where he gets his idea from.
I also dont have any problems with speculations about the championship.

But Vermeulen is a racer himself and has to know that the form of the pre season testing cant be taken so seriously for the whole season, since all factories update their bikes every week, and their riders learn to adapt their riding styles after a few weeks or months.

how can he come to that conclusion after knowing the results of only 6 test days?
and he says Japanese bikes, while we all saw that in all those 6 days, Ducati with Stoner were only a few tenth's off the pace of Vale, and Honda and Suzuki were nowhere.

if riders were to be affraid based on tests results, then Rossi had to throw the towel in the ring for the last 2 years where Casey was dominating the pre season testings.
IMO chris's pov is more directed at consistency and reliability across the season, rather than testing times.

Stoner himself has proven over the last couple of years, that being the fastest in pratice and qualifying doesn't translate into world titles.

So while the pre-season tests are a welcome bit of entertainment, often they don't reflect the outcome of the year.

Cv is of course more qualified than most to comment on this, there might be something in it

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Apr 8 2010, 09:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner himself has proven over the last couple of years, that being the fastest

Chris is merely giving Casey a good wrap and saying it how it is.

The Ducati has never been up to the Yam. standard, that explains the "other riders" performances, 07 included

Put purely and simply I'd say Chris is of the opinion if Stoner was on the right Yam, or even Honda, ...... we'd see what he means.

Maybe this in part explains why we didn't see Chris go to Duc. in Baylis's old seat, perhaps he feels it translates to Duc's in all racing codes and hence is a risky "proposition". ( PS ... Which I have seen Bunyip, and yeah its good ....... have you seen "the Tracker" ? )

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Apr 8 2010, 01:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>IMO chris's pov is more directed at consistency and reliability across the season, rather than testing times.

Stoner himself has proven over the last couple of years, that being the fastest in pratice and qualifying doesn't translate into world titles.

So while the pre-season tests are a welcome bit of entertainment, often they don't reflect the outcome of the year.

Cv is of course more qualified than most to comment on this, there might be something in it


has the Ducati been an unrelieable bike during the tests? if so, then he can be right, but if ducati has been a relieable bike so far, then theyr in the same situation as all the other factories.

who knows?
he can be right and at the same time he can be wrong. i just say that it's to soon to name the winners and losers in this year.

I dont say he didn't have any right to say this. but i think even an unrelieable bike at this time, can become a relieabe one after they find out it's weakness.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rossiofsky @ Apr 8 2010, 02:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>has the Ducati been an unrelieable bike during the tests? if so, then he can be right, but if ducati has been a relieable bike so far, then theyr in the same situation as all the other factories.

who knows?
he can be right and at the same time he can be wrong. i just say that it's to soon to name the winners and losers in this year.

I dont say he didn't have any right to say this. but i think even an unrelieable bike at this time, can become a relieabe one after they find out it's weakness.

There is no rule for the number of engines used in preseason so for all we know they could have used any number of engines.
Ducati had one difference from the others, peek revs and peek power. They had to throw that away now, no doubt because of reliability issues. They call it progress and drivability might have improved but they would have preferred to have less drivabilty and the upper hand with Casey's mastering of the screamer engine.
By going big bang they have made an engine more similar to the rest.
Ducati has traditionally had problems with reliability in endurance racing. Not that this can't change but this time they had to go a path where they've had no success in their WSBK counterpart.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Apr 8 2010, 12:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner himself has proven over the last couple of years, that being the fastest in pratice and qualifying doesn't translate into world titles.
You can include testing as well, and rossi also proved this in 2007 .

No doubt rossi is favourite, but we'll soon know how the bikes stack up in race trim, not necessarily by the end of this week-end though.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Apr 8 2010, 11:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>There is no rule for the number of engines used in preseason so for all we know they could have used any number of engines.
Ducati had one difference from the others, peek revs and peek power. They had to throw that away now, no doubt because of reliability issues. They call it progress and drivability might have improved but they would have preferred to have less drivabilty and the upper hand with Casey's mastering of the screamer engine.
By going big bang they have made an engine more similar to the rest.
Ducati has traditionally had problems with reliability in endurance racing. Not that this can't change but this time they had to go a path where they've had no success in their WSBK counterpart.
Ducati is reputed to have had the most powerful engine in 2006 as well though, and it is still possible the desmo valves give them some advantage in a fuel efficiency formula, although I tend to think as you do that the technology is fairly mature and that the leading teams have got to similar end points in different ways. I think even the most partisan stoner fans among whom I number myself have some concern whether he had a unique synergy with the screamer engine which is now lost to him.