Spies Assen Decision

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 8 2008, 07:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>didnt he get sacked over all the tax dodging stuff?
yes but it show's even managers can make mistake's.
many contracts use wording that can be interpreted in several ways making them quite ambiguous. also there are probably many clauses that could see a rider out of a job for various reasons. sure they need a good reason to sack a rider but where there's a will there's a way.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Jul 8 2008, 07:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Tom your making a mountain out of a mole hill.We are talking about ONE race because of injury,not replacing riders on a whim or a fancy.If the manager of a team,any team,football, baseball,car racing or Moto Gp,feels that a certain player,rider is a detrement to the cause,he can pull the plug if he thinks its for the good of the team.

I'm expanding the principle that people are applying to show that it is not realistic. Loris was passed fit and chose to race, I don't believe the team manager can overturn that decision to run a non contracted rider. You may think he can and spend a long time wondering why it never happens, but i don't think Dennings actions need to be questioned in this intance. It's no big deal

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 8 2008, 08:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm expanding the principle that people are applying to show that it is not realistic. Loris was passed fit and chose to race, I don't believe the team manager can overturn that decision to run a non contracted rider. You may think he can and spend a long time wondering why it never happens, but i don't think Dennings actions need to be questioned in this intance. It's no big deal
expanding the principle = spin

what draws you to that conclusion ? i for one have know idea what a motogp team manager can or cant do.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 8 2008, 08:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>expanding the principle = spin

Applying principles to judge a situation is called logic.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 8 2008, 02:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>what draws you to that conclusion ? i for one have know idea what a motogp team manager can or cant do.
Nor do I but I would assume that he would have the right to veto a rider taking part in a Grand Prix if he didn't feel the rider was 100 percent. That's just my thought on the matter.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jul 8 2008, 08:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nor do I but I would assume that he would have the right to veto a rider taking part in a Grand Prix if he didn't feel the rider was 100 percent. That's just my thought on the matter.
i totally agree mate.

My 2 cents
Loris's crash in assen had nothing to do with him being injured ...wasn't a inability of riding the bike caused by his injury .... was more a not heated enough tire as i se it . So isn't any question of Loris ability to ride. In the first practice he proved he was fit to race.

Paul Denning – Team Manager: "I think it is necessary to make it clear that the crash was nothing to do with his recent hand injury and it was just one of those things that happens in racing. He was lucky that he didn’t break anything or cause more damage to the original injury, because it is a really fast place to crash."

And clinica mobile statement before Assen:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>GP – CLINICA AT ASSEN, CAPIROSSI EXAMINED


The Dutch TT will be raced this weekend and Loris Capirossi turned up at Clinica Mobile today at Assen to have his Scotch Cast removed from his fractured right hand.

X-rays confirmed good setting of the fifth metacarpal badly fractured just over a fortnight ago.
Capirossi responded with a smile to the ‘cruel’ examination by the Dutch medics who – in order to determine the Italian’s fitness to race - submitted his hand to manoeuvres that would have caused pain even to a healthy hand. After being declared fit, Loris has received physiotherapy and has tested some functional tapings for tomorrow’s first practice sessions.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Capirex @ Jul 8 2008, 08:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My 2 cents
Loris's crash in assen had nothing to do with him being injured ...wasn't a inability of riding the bike caused by his injury .... was more a not heated enough tire as i se it . So isn't any question of Loris ability to ride. In the first practice he proved he was fit to race.

Paul Denning – Team Manager: "I think it is necessary to make it clear that the crash was nothing to do with his recent hand injury and it was just one of those things that happens in racing. He was lucky that he didn’t break anything or cause more damage to the original injury, because it is a really fast place to crash."

And clinica mobile statement before Assen:

Thanks for that

Jesus H Christ! What fallout from not rushing into a ride.

I have a question, if Spies breaks into the top ten at Indy, will not rushing into Assen justify his decision for anybody here?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Capirex @ Jul 8 2008, 12:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My 2 cents
Loris's crash in assen had nothing to do with him being injured ...wasn't a inability of riding the bike caused by his injury .... was more a not heated enough tire as i se it . So isn't any question of Loris ability to ride. In the first practice he proved he was fit to race.

Paul Denning – Team Manager: "I think it is necessary to make it clear that the crash was nothing to do with his recent hand injury and it was just one of those things that happens in racing. He was lucky that he didn’t break anything or cause more damage to the original injury, because it is a really fast place to crash."

And clinica mobile statement before Assen:

Hi Capirex, nice to see you on the boards. You almost never around anymore, or at least posting stuff. I had a feeling your boy Capi would get you to come out.

Anyway, let me ask you something. (Feel free to chime in tom, since you agreed with a glee.) Do you think Denning or the Clinica would have made any statement to the effect, 'Ooops, we shouldn't have cleared him as it looks he wasn't yet ready.' Can you imagine the embarrassment and loss of credibility in their management of a rider's injury?

I really think that Loris knew what he was doing if said he'll race. We're talking about a guy that got a podium with a fractured hand, rode a lot of time with a lot of injurys and it's right to give him the credit that he knew if he could ride or not and that he knows how to adapt his riding to the injurys he had.
the comentators said after the crash that they suspect either a mecanical failure or a not enough heated tire.

And do you think that the Dutch medics that were the one that declared him fit would be crazy to declare him fit if he weren't up for the job, knowing what embarrassment and loss of credibility in their management of a rider's injury they would prove?

my question: How did he managed to ride in FP1 and to get a decent time if he wasn't fit?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Capirex @ Jul 8 2008, 02:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I really think that Loris knew what he was doing if said he'll race. We're talking about a guy that got a podium with a fractured hand, rode a lot of time with a lot of injurys and it's right to give him the credit that he knew if he could ride or not and that he knows how to adapt his riding to the injurys he had.
the comentators said after the crash that they suspect either a mecanical failure or a not enough heated tire.

And do you think that the Dutch medics that were the one that declared him fit would be crazy to declare him fit if he weren't up for the job, knowing what embarrassment and loss of credibility in their management of a rider's injury they would prove?

my question: How did he managed to ride in FP1 and to get a decent time if he wasn't fit?
My question would not be of his fitness, but what would be the consequences of another fall? Does his current injury make him more likely to further injury? That type of thing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Capirex @ Jul 8 2008, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I really think that Loris knew what he was doing if said he'll race. We're talking about a guy that got a podium with a fractured hand, rode a lot of time with a lot of injurys and it's right to give him the credit that he knew if he could ride or not and that he knows how to adapt his riding to the injurys he had.
the comentators said after the crash that they suspect either a mecanical failure or a not enough heated tire.

And do you think that the Dutch medics that were the one that declared him fit would be crazy to declare him fit if he weren't up for the job, knowing what embarrassment and loss of credibility in their management of a rider's injury they would prove?

my question: How did he managed to ride in FP1 and to get a decent time if he wasn't fit?

Well sweetheart, you didn't answer my question. Oh, and I agree, these guys ride injured all the time. But his injury eliminated him from one GP, and then another! If they are clearing him, then they need to rethink the clearing process. Hence the answer to your question, I think they did lose credibility. Just look at what we are discussing, I'm sure we are not the only ones talking and thinking this about his status to race declared by the Clinica (and Denning)--that is called losing credibility (in the ability to manage such situations).

I stopped thinking about this after someone dragged the rule book out and said he couldn't ride. If he could have then that is a different story. I still think in "Assen" (to much breakfast food on the brain) the qualifying saw so many hard crashes I think he knew he was too far behind with only 2 sessions. At Donny well he had more time and had agreed to it with some time to get ready mentally. I still think he made the right call. If you jump all the time pretty soon you get the jumper label and you are jumping all over the place. Had he nothing else on the go I would say ride, and I wanted him to ride, but he did the right thing because he had too much to lose under the circumstances.

CV will go to Yamaha in a heartbeat if given the op....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jul 8 2008, 11:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My question would not be of his fitness, but what would be the consequences of another fall? Does his current injury make him more likely to further injury? That type of thing.

It's a risk assumed. It can't be a prosses based on "What If ". Remember how Marco Melandri rode after Catalunya 2006 or Rossi after Assen 2006.

@Jumkie you belive that the dutch doctors, the clinica mobile and Suzuki and Loris were wrong about his recovery. Well what got you into thinking that !? I wonder .... He Crashed ! Ohh yea:blink: he was coming from and injury wow that leads for sure to the logical deduction that he wasn't fit to race ......Oh My Really clever

I repeat : I think the crash wasn't caused by his injury: also keep in mind that the hand he injured in catalunya<u> wasn't damaged</u> after assen - even though it was a pretty big crash - just his forearm got damaged and that was unlucky cause weren't for him being caught under his bike he wouln't have had any serious injurys and is my guess he would have continue to ride.

Let me get for you this numbers:
Fp1 Times

1. Casey Stoner AUS Ducati Marlboro Team ( 1min 36.569 secs
2. Nicky Hayden USA Repsol Honda Team (M) 1min 37.186 secs
3. Dani Pedrosa SPA Repsol Honda Team (M) 1min 37.398 secs
4. Colin Edwards USA Tech 3 Yamaha (M) 1min 37.437 secs
5. Alex de Angelis RSM San Carlo Honda Gresini ( 1min 37.470 secs
6. Valentino Rossi ITA Fiat Yamaha Team ( 1min 37.480 secs
7. Andrea Dovizioso ITA JiR Team Scot MotoGP (M) 1min 37.507 secs
8. John Hopkins USA Kawasaki Racing Team ( 1min 37.652 secs
9. Shinya Nakano JPN San Carlo Honda Gresini ( 1min 37.821 secs
10. Randy de Puniet FRA LCR Honda MotoGP (M) 1min 37.951 secs
11. Jorge Lorenzo SPA Fiat Yamaha Team (M) 1min 37.987 secs
12. Loris Capirossi ITA Rizla Suzuki MotoGP (

1min 38.082 secs
13. James Toseland GBR Tech 3 Yamaha (M) 1min 38.198 secs
14. Chris Vermeulen AUS Rizla Suzuki MotoGP (

1min 38.341 secs
15. Sylvain Guintoli FRA Alice Team ( 1min 38.435 secs
16. Anthony West AUS Kawasaki Racing Team ( 1min 38.768 secs
17. Marco Melandri ITA Ducati Marlboro Team ( 1min 39.020 secs
18. Toni Elias SPA Alice Team ( 1min 39.805 secs

Loris CAPIROSSI Rizla Suzuki MotoGP ITA : Runs=4 Total laps=27 Full laps=19

1 2'10.694 53.075 21.416 31.003 25.200 189.6
2 1'44.713 34.479 17.936 28.706 23.592 249.2
3 1'41.323 32.746 17.220 28.204 23.153 265.4
4 1'40.054 32.285 16.946 28.010 22.813 269.1
5 1'39.572 32.127 16.874 27.963 22.608 284.4
6 1'39.370 32.010 16.864 27.831 22.665 268.3
7 1'58.985 P 35.473 18.851 30.141 34.520 250.2
------------------------------------------------------------
8 6'10.495 4'59.033 18.413 29.512 23.537 251.6
9 1'40.837 32.399 17.018 28.263 23.157 273.9
10 1'40.261 32.151 17.171 28.085 22.854 274.0
11 1'48.616 37.384 18.105 30.168 22.959 278.1
12 1'39.502 31.878 16.898 28.036 22.690 277.4
13 1'52.019 35.159 18.438 33.368 25.054 232.7
14 1'39.141 31.956 16.809 27.796 22.580 279.6
15 1'57.407 P 35.585 17.917 30.232 33.673 258.1
---------------------------------------------------------------
16 6'11.677 4'57.997 18.744 30.309 24.627 252.7
17 1'46.034 34.244 17.284 30.196 24.310 273.3
18 1'38.937 32.025 16.808 27.702 22.402 285.3
19 1'38.596 31.739 16.721 27.738 22.398 284.9
20 1'38.082 31.572 16.677 27.595 22.238 285.4
21 1'56.659 P 35.424 18.488 30.175 32.572 247.4
------------------------------------------------------------
22 6'46.724 5'32.992 18.970 30.663 24.099 259.8
23 1'44.009 32.718 17.111 28.887 25.293 283.9
24 1'53.950 33.590 18.285 34.752 27.323 256.8
25 1'42.844 33.795 17.499 28.645 22.905 270.9
26 1'39.393 31.738 16.839 28.139 22.677 281.5
27 2'15.579 P 36.726 24.437 35.150 39.266 168.8

Shall we also compere to his team-mate ( a FIT to race rider) placed in 12th positon:
Chris VERMEULEN Runs=4 Total laps=25 Full laps=18

1 2'14.442 58.205 19.650 31.639 24.948 228.5
2 1'44.426 34.285 17.387 29.041 23.713 272.8
3 1'41.674 33.330 17.049 28.297 22.998 273.7
4 1'39.548 32.070 16.802 28.005 22.671 284.4
5 1'38.860 31.719 16.710 27.955 22.476 283.5
6 1'52.542 P 32.587 18.325 29.501 32.129 249
---------------------------------------------------------
7 8'06.832 6'53.672 18.562 30.482 24.116 260.2
8 1'41.872 33.090 17.178 28.556 23.048 281.7
9 1'39.739 32.082 16.782 28.152 22.723 282.9
10 1'38.894 31.858 16.662 27.927 22.447 282.2
11 1'38.657 31.814 16.665 27.720 22.458 280.4
12 1'49.357 P 32.948 17.179 28.929 30.301 278.9
---------------------------------------------------------
13 6'37.899 5'23.273 21.505 29.683 23.438 178.7
14 1'40.752 32.612 16.988 28.352 22.800 280.4
15 1'38.992 31.672 16.726 27.876 22.718 281.0
16 1'38.892 31.662 16.691 27.892 22.647 283.2
17 1'47.202 P 31.631 16.726 28.757 30.088 283.2
----------------------------------------------------------
18 8'49.884 7'39.675 18.026 29.188 22.995 262.3
19 1'39.623 32.014 16.846 28.162 22.601 281.6
20 1'38.376 31.687 16.666 27.673 22.350 282.9
21 1'38.441 31.558 16.630 27.817 22.436 282.4
22 1'41.112 31.617 16.547 27.677 25.271 282.4
23 1'44.400 36.650 16.984 28.096 22.670 278.1
24 1'39.227 31.944 16.644 28.012 22.627 284.4
25 1'38.341 31.684 16.612 27.705 22.340 284.1

Also note that this:
Casey STONER Ducati Marlboro Team AUS Runs=4 Total laps=24 Full laps=17
Nicky HAYDEN Repsol Honda Team USA Runs=4 Total laps=26 Full laps=19
Dani PEDROSA Repsol Honda Team SPA Runs=4 Total laps=25 Full laps=18
Valentino ROSSI Fiat Yamaha Team ITA Runs=4 Total laps=27 Full laps=20

Also the crash vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4zq1GVkgow


I don't want to answer to your assumpions that everybody screw up and all were wrong and you are right and that all they did is to cover them up. LC crashed but also Rossi crashed and he was fit, de angelis also crashed .. many riders crashed also Rossi crashed in the same corner in 2006.

I can also make assumptions: I assume then that you belive all this because you're pied that Spies did not race in Assen.

Now if LC wouln't have crashed nobody would have said a thing.

Man, hasn't this become a discussion and a half.

Given that we are off teh 'should Spies have ridden' discussion in terms of his own decicion and onto whether LC should have ridden I may as well throw some thoughts into the picture.

IMO, if the Clinica Mobile doctors passed LC fit, and he also felt that he was ready to ride, than it was not up to Denning to say that he could not ride. I say this purely as Denning is not medically qualified (and most Team Managers would not be) so he has no right to stop LC based on medical ground when he has been cleared.

But, if Denning had doubts he should have arranged an independent medical evaluation and made a decision dependent on the outcome of that checkup.

But it appears obvious that Denning did not have any doubts based upon his trust in the decision of the circuit doctors and LC. To me, Denning allowing LC to race based upon these premises was acceptable risk (emphasis is based on the premise).

To say that Denning should have stopped LC even though he had been passed fit would open up some interesting possibilities in terms of 'restraint of trade' type scenarios and/or breach of contract (this would depend on the contract wording).

Further (IMO) there have been many riders who have ridden with an injury far worse than that suffered by LC (Melandri/Elias any number of times) and there has been little or no discussion or incidents involving these riders directly resulting from their injuries.

I also would say that it is unfair to expect Spies to take a position of an injured rider just because he has been flown to teh circuit by the team. He was there as a backup in the instance that LC was not able to ride (as in be passed fit or decide after FP that he was not ready). Basically, I suspect that the decision as to whether Spies would have gotten a ride (with no accident) was LC's and his alone and we all know that a rider will not give up their seat.

If LC's accident is/was determined to have been caused as a direct result of his earlier injury and if it can be determined that he returned earlier than he should have, the responsibility if with those that passed him fit, not Denning (IMO).





Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 9 2008, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Man, hasn't this become a discussion and a half.

Given that we are off teh 'should Spies have ridden' discussion in terms of his own decicion and onto whether LC should have ridden I may as well throw some thoughts into the picture.

IMO, if the Clinica Mobile doctors passed LC fit, and he also felt that he was ready to ride, than it was not up to Denning to say that he could not ride. I say this purely as Denning is not medically qualified (and most Team Managers would not be) so he has no right to stop LC based on medical ground when he has been cleared.

But, if Denning had doubts he should have arranged an independent medical evaluation and made a decision dependent on the outcome of that checkup.

But it appears obvious that Denning did not have any doubts based upon his trust in the decision of the circuit doctors and LC. To me, Denning allowing LC to race based upon these premises was acceptable risk (emphasis is based on the premise).

To say that Denning should have stopped LC even though he had been passed fit would open up some interesting possibilities in terms of 'restraint of trade' type scenarios and/or breach of contract (this would depend on the contract wording).

Further (IMO) there have been many riders who have ridden with an injury far worse than that suffered by LC (Melandri/Elias any number of times) and there has been little or no discussion or incidents involving these riders directly resulting from their injuries.

I also would say that it is unfair to expect Spies to take a position of an injured rider just because he has been flown to teh circuit by the team. He was there as a backup in the instance that LC was not able to ride (as in be passed fit or decide after FP that he was not ready). Basically, I suspect that the decision as to whether Spies would have gotten a ride (with no accident) was LC's and his alone and we all know that a rider will not give up their seat.

If LC's accident is/was determined to have been caused as a direct result of his earlier injury and if it can be determined that he returned earlier than he should have, the responsibility if with those that passed him fit, not Denning (IMO).





Garry

+1 thats pretty much what i thought

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 8 2008, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> i tell ya curve, some of the stuff he comes out with, we must have a motogp crew chief on our forum going under the pseudonym tom.
Perhaps he's Tom O'Kane

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Jul 9 2008, 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Perhaps he's Tom O'Kane
who's he ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 9 2008, 11:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>who's he ?
I think he's on Vermin's side of the garage. Isn't Stewart Shenton Capi's crew chief, and Tom O'Kane Chris's? He was one of the Banbury ex formula 1 set drafted in by KR, and went to Suzuki last season I think.

Tom'll know, especially if it is him