Help Support MotoGP Forum:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ Jan 29 2007, 10:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>he can't make honda worry, because worrying is an emotion, and emotions are unnessecary, so Honda dosen't have them
thats right! they're pushing toward robot nirvana!
thats right! they're pushing toward robot nirvana!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tinks @ Jan 29 2007, 01:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>yehh the fact that he dominated testing might also make honda a little worried
Not so sure Valentino dominated testing, day 3 maybe! Aside from that, I'm sure Honda have enough knowledge of Valentino and the threat he poses without getting concerned over pre-season testing. They know that threat, Suzuki will be raising a few eyebrows though.
Not so sure Valentino dominated testing, day 3 maybe! Aside from that, I'm sure Honda have enough knowledge of Valentino and the threat he poses without getting concerned over pre-season testing. They know that threat, Suzuki will be raising a few eyebrows though.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alex @ Jan 26 2007, 12:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That 'liner' as you put it was a one-off, I normally fill out a few sentences if not a whole bloomin' essay from time to time, a lot like you. Yeah it's good to write loads, unless it's all crap.
I suppose in a way Hayden doesn't have a 'crack' as I put it because we haven't seen it effect him yet in any shape or form so i'm not really entitled to say that but I do think it may effect him in some way but then again he may just hide it or he may not feel effected by this in any way. I agree when you say both of their personalities are different - they totally are. Rossi is a live and bubbly person but also acts like a child when he doesn't get his own way whereas Hayden seems to be a lot more serious - especially when riding or just before a race. After each race he's as cool as a cucumber (unless his team-mate has knocked him off).
Well there's more than one way to look at it - Farmboy (or Trick Daddy as he would like to be called) typically in over 3 years (with 4 exceptions Laguna, Assen with a lot of luck and Valencia where he cried like a kid that had .... its pants) finishes somewhere behind the winner. Yeah sure he's consistent, but that's like going out with flat-chested chicks because they have nice eyes. Valentino is a RACER a WINNER and an ENTERTAINER and that's the difference - So JUMKIE take that for your weekend
I suppose in a way Hayden doesn't have a 'crack' as I put it because we haven't seen it effect him yet in any shape or form so i'm not really entitled to say that but I do think it may effect him in some way but then again he may just hide it or he may not feel effected by this in any way. I agree when you say both of their personalities are different - they totally are. Rossi is a live and bubbly person but also acts like a child when he doesn't get his own way whereas Hayden seems to be a lot more serious - especially when riding or just before a race. After each race he's as cool as a cucumber (unless his team-mate has knocked him off).
Well there's more than one way to look at it - Farmboy (or Trick Daddy as he would like to be called) typically in over 3 years (with 4 exceptions Laguna, Assen with a lot of luck and Valencia where he cried like a kid that had .... its pants) finishes somewhere behind the winner. Yeah sure he's consistent, but that's like going out with flat-chested chicks because they have nice eyes. Valentino is a RACER a WINNER and an ENTERTAINER and that's the difference - So JUMKIE take that for your weekend
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ptk50 @ Feb 2 2007, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Valentino is a RACER a WINNER and an ENTERTAINER and that's the difference - So JUMKIE take that for your weekend
You must find it hard to dislike Hayden, afterall despite Rossi having all the qualities you described above, he still got beaten by Nicky fair and square. So credit is obviously due.
Look at it like this. Rossi started riding in the grand prix paddock in 1996. he won his first premier class crown in 2001. Hayden only arrived in 2003, yet he is the 2006 champion. It doesn't look so bad for Nicky afterall...........
You must find it hard to dislike Hayden, afterall despite Rossi having all the qualities you described above, he still got beaten by Nicky fair and square. So credit is obviously due.
Look at it like this. Rossi started riding in the grand prix paddock in 1996. he won his first premier class crown in 2001. Hayden only arrived in 2003, yet he is the 2006 champion. It doesn't look so bad for Nicky afterall...........
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2006
- Messages
- 22,701
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 2 2007, 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You must find it hard to dislike Hayden, afterall despite Rossi having all the qualities you described above, he still got beaten by Nicky fair and square. So credit is obviously due.
Look at it like this. Rossi started riding in the grand prix paddock in 1996. he won his first premier class crown in 2001. Hayden only arrived in 2003, yet he is the 2006 champion. It doesn't look so bad for Nicky afterall...........
yes but by 2001 he was now a 3 times world champion if your going to count back to 96,
Look at it like this. Rossi started riding in the grand prix paddock in 1996. he won his first premier class crown in 2001. Hayden only arrived in 2003, yet he is the 2006 champion. It doesn't look so bad for Nicky afterall...........
yes but by 2001 he was now a 3 times world champion if your going to count back to 96,
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 2 2007, 04:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>yes but by 2001 he was now a 3 times world champion if your going to count back to 96,
+1
Hayden deserved his World Title! IMO when Hayden's racing around the track, he is working. When Vale is out there, he is playing around and having a good time. Not sayin one is better than the other- jumkie
For all I know my last statement has nothing to do w/ this post, I kinda went blank while I was writting this.
does anybody else here that?
+1
Hayden deserved his World Title! IMO when Hayden's racing around the track, he is working. When Vale is out there, he is playing around and having a good time. Not sayin one is better than the other- jumkie
For all I know my last statement has nothing to do w/ this post, I kinda went blank while I was writting this.
at the start of the 01 season he had two world titles yes. But thats because he wasa riding less powerfull (easier to deal with) bikes. The point is, hayden came in at the deep end not too long ago. It took guys like Doohan and Schwantz ages to win a title.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2006
- Messages
- 24,726
- Location
- Your Mom's House
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ptk50 @ Feb 2 2007, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Valentino is a RACER a WINNER and an ENTERTAINER and
You forgot CULTLEADER.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 2 2007, 01:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>yes but by 2001 he was now a 3 times world champion if your going to count back to 96,
uhm, I think Tom was talking about the premier class. Otherwise, should we also include Hayden’s dirt track championships?
You forgot CULTLEADER.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 2 2007, 01:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>yes but by 2001 he was now a 3 times world champion if your going to count back to 96,
uhm, I think Tom was talking about the premier class. Otherwise, should we also include Hayden’s dirt track championships?
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2006
- Messages
- 22,701
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Feb 3 2007, 12:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>uhm, I think Tom was talking about the premier class. Otherwise, should we also include Hayden’s dirt track championships?
well if thats the case why did he count back to 96. if he wants to talk premier class then thats talk from 2000, rossi comes second in the championship in his rookie year then wins it the following year. it took hayden 3 years to win the championship.
i dont like the way he trys to rubbish rossis 125 and 250 championship either by saying there easer bikes to ride, i think your talking .... tom.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 3 2007, 12:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But thats because he wasa riding less powerfull (easier to deal with) bikes. The point is, hayden came in at the deep end not too long ago. It took guys like Doohan and Schwantz ages to win a title.
I don't even think the superbikes are that close. Motogp is a much much higher level. I think the 250cc class is more comparable to wsbk. But they are so different its hard to tell.
a quote of youras taken from another thread.
you contratict your self. 125s and 250s are not so easy to ride, they may have less power but its very close racing and they carry a lot of corner speed.
are you saying that 125 and 250 titles mean nothing because its not the premier class, well reading your other comments that doesnt say much for wsb
well if thats the case why did he count back to 96. if he wants to talk premier class then thats talk from 2000, rossi comes second in the championship in his rookie year then wins it the following year. it took hayden 3 years to win the championship.
i dont like the way he trys to rubbish rossis 125 and 250 championship either by saying there easer bikes to ride, i think your talking .... tom.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 3 2007, 12:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But thats because he wasa riding less powerfull (easier to deal with) bikes. The point is, hayden came in at the deep end not too long ago. It took guys like Doohan and Schwantz ages to win a title.
I don't even think the superbikes are that close. Motogp is a much much higher level. I think the 250cc class is more comparable to wsbk. But they are so different its hard to tell.
a quote of youras taken from another thread.
you contratict your self. 125s and 250s are not so easy to ride, they may have less power but its very close racing and they carry a lot of corner speed.
are you saying that 125 and 250 titles mean nothing because its not the premier class, well reading your other comments that doesnt say much for wsb
somedamnwriter
Moderator
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2006
- Messages
- 5,306
- Location
- Philippines
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 3 2007, 05:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>well if thats the case why did he count back to 96. if he wants to talk premier class then thats talk from 2000, rossi comes second in the championship in his rookie year then wins it the following year. it took hayden 3 years to win the championship.
+1
Not bad eh?
+1
Not bad eh?
I think the point Tom was making was Rossi had 4 years track experience on the GP circuits before he even got to the premier class. Sure, it's hard to win a 500 championship when you're not even racing in it, but I think it's a way of explaining how Rossi had twice as much track experience by the time he won his first premier class title. Of course, how much of an advantage track experience gives is debatable, but it sure seemed to mean a lot when Rossi didn't win at Laguna in '05, you know?
I think another thing that might factor in Hayden's slower rise to the top is the fact that his GP career has been carried out in the shadow of a legend- Rossi himself. Rossi didn't really have that problem. I'm not saying he had it easy in his 500 days, but he didn't have to topple a multiple world champ to get his title. Picture this, Doohan's infamous crashes never happen, and he's still fit to race up until the 990 era. Would Rossi have become a champ as fast as he did?
That aside, I do belive Rossi is still a faster racer than Hayden, and he's still the man to beat. And I'm not trying to make excuses on Hayden's behalf (In my opinion, men in Hayden's current sitation have no need for excuses of any kind), but I think it needs to be pointed out that Hayden may have had it a little tougher than Rossi coming up in GPs, factory Honda bike aside.
I think another thing that might factor in Hayden's slower rise to the top is the fact that his GP career has been carried out in the shadow of a legend- Rossi himself. Rossi didn't really have that problem. I'm not saying he had it easy in his 500 days, but he didn't have to topple a multiple world champ to get his title. Picture this, Doohan's infamous crashes never happen, and he's still fit to race up until the 990 era. Would Rossi have become a champ as fast as he did?
That aside, I do belive Rossi is still a faster racer than Hayden, and he's still the man to beat. And I'm not trying to make excuses on Hayden's behalf (In my opinion, men in Hayden's current sitation have no need for excuses of any kind), but I think it needs to be pointed out that Hayden may have had it a little tougher than Rossi coming up in GPs, factory Honda bike aside.
I think Richo has the right idea, very well said too. I'd like to add that i am not rubbishing the 125's and 250's. You quoted above how i consider the 250 title to be comparible to world superbike. I was making a point about track knowledge and experience. The two world titles Rossi got are of course impressive, but they are stepping stones on the way to the premier class title. Hayden got an AMA title(not too far behind wsbk) afterall and was rookie of the year.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ Feb 3 2007, 06:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think the point Tom was making was Rossi had 4 years track experience on the GP circuits before he even got to the premier class. Sure, it's hard to win a 500 championship when you're not even racing in it, but I think it's a way of explaining how Rossi had twice as much track experience by the time he won his first premier class title. Of course, how much of an advantage track experience gives is debatable, but it sure seemed to mean a lot when Rossi didn't win at Laguna in '05, you know?
I think another thing that might factor in Hayden's slower rise to the top is the fact that his GP career has been carried out in the shadow of a legend- Rossi himself. Rossi didn't really have that problem. I'm not saying he had it easy in his 500 days, but he didn't have to topple a multiple world champ to get his title. Picture this, Doohan's infamous crashes never happen, and he's still fit to race up until the 990 era. Would Rossi have become a champ as fast as he did?
That aside, I do belive Rossi is still a faster racer than Hayden, and he's still the man to beat. And I'm not trying to make excuses on Hayden's behalf (In my opinion, men in Hayden's current sitation have no need for excuses of any kind), but I think it needs to be pointed out that Hayden may have had it a little tougher than Rossi coming up in GPs, factory Honda bike aside.
But then in those “4 year track experience” he got a 125 (without track knowledge) and a 250 World Championships barely in each second season in them, repeated it in Premier Class same layout.
Of course we are all entitled to our opinion and to likes of riders, and even thought sometimes it’s misinterpreted, it’s not trying to change any of that, But let’s see numbers:
Rookie of the year:
2000
Rossi – 500cc – 2 th place – won 2 – 209 points / 16 races = 13.06 average. Not precisely Official Team (Nastro Azzurro Honda and came from a completely different factory - Aprilia).
2006
Pedrosa – MotoGP – 5th place – won 2 – 215 points / 17 races = 12.65 average. HRC’s Official Team (and being with Honda for 6 years to that date).
(<u>This was to compare riders with track knowledge from lower categories</u>).
2003
Hayden – MotoGP – 5th place – 130 points / 16 races = 8.13 average. HRC’s Official Team.
Plus 500cc Two Stroke bikes were harder to dominate and control on your first go than 990cc because of the “Donkey’s Kick” (or something like that) meaning power delivery not so sophisticated and electronically controlled. Ask Doohan!
I think another thing that might factor in Hayden's slower rise to the top is the fact that his GP career has been carried out in the shadow of a legend- Rossi himself. Rossi didn't really have that problem. I'm not saying he had it easy in his 500 days, but he didn't have to topple a multiple world champ to get his title. Picture this, Doohan's infamous crashes never happen, and he's still fit to race up until the 990 era. Would Rossi have become a champ as fast as he did?
That aside, I do belive Rossi is still a faster racer than Hayden, and he's still the man to beat. And I'm not trying to make excuses on Hayden's behalf (In my opinion, men in Hayden's current sitation have no need for excuses of any kind), but I think it needs to be pointed out that Hayden may have had it a little tougher than Rossi coming up in GPs, factory Honda bike aside.
But then in those “4 year track experience” he got a 125 (without track knowledge) and a 250 World Championships barely in each second season in them, repeated it in Premier Class same layout.
Of course we are all entitled to our opinion and to likes of riders, and even thought sometimes it’s misinterpreted, it’s not trying to change any of that, But let’s see numbers:
Rookie of the year:
2000
Rossi – 500cc – 2 th place – won 2 – 209 points / 16 races = 13.06 average. Not precisely Official Team (Nastro Azzurro Honda and came from a completely different factory - Aprilia).
2006
Pedrosa – MotoGP – 5th place – won 2 – 215 points / 17 races = 12.65 average. HRC’s Official Team (and being with Honda for 6 years to that date).
(<u>This was to compare riders with track knowledge from lower categories</u>).
2003
Hayden – MotoGP – 5th place – 130 points / 16 races = 8.13 average. HRC’s Official Team.
Plus 500cc Two Stroke bikes were harder to dominate and control on your first go than 990cc because of the “Donkey’s Kick” (or something like that) meaning power delivery not so sophisticated and electronically controlled. Ask Doohan!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ Feb 3 2007, 12:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Picture this, Doohan's infamous crashes never happen, and he's still fit to race up until the 990 era. Would Rossi have become a champ as fast as he did?not a chance
You're on the ball with the rest of it too Richo. It took Doohan six seasons to bag his first title, that says a lot about track knowledge and who you're up against.
You're on the ball with the rest of it too Richo. It took Doohan six seasons to bag his first title, that says a lot about track knowledge and who you're up against.
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2006
- Messages
- 22,701
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Feb 3 2007, 06:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
But then in those “4 year track experience” he got a 125 (without track knowledge) and a 250 World Championships barely in each second season in them, repeated it in Premier Class same layout.
Of course we are all entitled to our opinion and to likes of riders, and even thought sometimes it’s misinterpreted, it’s not trying to change any of that, But let’s see numbers:
Rookie of the year:
2000
Rossi – 500cc – 2 th place – won 2 – 209 points / 16 races = 13.06 average. Not precisely Official Team (Nastro Azzurro Honda and came from a completely different factory - Aprilia).
2006
Pedrosa – MotoGP – 5th place – won 2 – 215 points / 17 races = 12.65 average. HRC’s Official Team (and being with Honda for 6 years to that date).
(<u>This was to compare riders with track knowledge from lower categories</u>).
2003
Hayden – MotoGP – 5th place – 130 points / 16 races = 8.13 average. HRC’s Official Team.
Plus 500cc Two Stroke bikes were harder to dominate and control on your first go than 990cc because of the “Donkey’s Kick” (or something like that) meaning power delivery not so sophisticated and electronically controlled. Ask Dohhan!
yup thats right mate, and not forgeting there has been some track change from 97 to 2006 so its not as if thing have stayed exactly the same as implyed in tom and richos post altho my mate richo says track knolage is debatable. when i say track change i mean track taken away and added and other tracks layout changed.
But then in those “4 year track experience” he got a 125 (without track knowledge) and a 250 World Championships barely in each second season in them, repeated it in Premier Class same layout.
Of course we are all entitled to our opinion and to likes of riders, and even thought sometimes it’s misinterpreted, it’s not trying to change any of that, But let’s see numbers:
Rookie of the year:
2000
Rossi – 500cc – 2 th place – won 2 – 209 points / 16 races = 13.06 average. Not precisely Official Team (Nastro Azzurro Honda and came from a completely different factory - Aprilia).
2006
Pedrosa – MotoGP – 5th place – won 2 – 215 points / 17 races = 12.65 average. HRC’s Official Team (and being with Honda for 6 years to that date).
(<u>This was to compare riders with track knowledge from lower categories</u>).
2003
Hayden – MotoGP – 5th place – 130 points / 16 races = 8.13 average. HRC’s Official Team.
Plus 500cc Two Stroke bikes were harder to dominate and control on your first go than 990cc because of the “Donkey’s Kick” (or something like that) meaning power delivery not so sophisticated and electronically controlled. Ask Dohhan!
yup thats right mate, and not forgeting there has been some track change from 97 to 2006 so its not as if thing have stayed exactly the same as implyed in tom and richos post altho my mate richo says track knolage is debatable. when i say track change i mean track taken away and added and other tracks layout changed.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ Feb 3 2007, 11:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sure, tracks have changed over the years, but a lot haven't, you know? It's still an advantage coming up the way Rossi and Pedrosa did, as opposed to the way Hayden did.
You are totally right, a lot of tracks have not change… that is why I “compared riders with track knowledge from lower categories” in this questioning (And included Pedrobot). Hayden did not have this advantage on track knowledge (Proof is Laguna). But then again I also wanted to point out with those statistics… “Full Factory support Rides” which was a disadvantage for Rossi compared to them in his Rookie year. Imagine Rossi on his Rookie year with all that Pedrosa has had from HRC to back him up, “If” does not exist, I can only imagine!
You are totally right, a lot of tracks have not change… that is why I “compared riders with track knowledge from lower categories” in this questioning (And included Pedrobot). Hayden did not have this advantage on track knowledge (Proof is Laguna). But then again I also wanted to point out with those statistics… “Full Factory support Rides” which was a disadvantage for Rossi compared to them in his Rookie year. Imagine Rossi on his Rookie year with all that Pedrosa has had from HRC to back him up, “If” does not exist, I can only imagine!
A
Alex
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Feb 4 2007, 04:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You are totally right, a lot of tracks have not change… that is why I “compared riders with track knowledge from lower categories” in this questioning (And included Pedrobot). Hayden did not have this advantage on track knowledge (Proof is Laguna). But then again I also wanted to point out with those statistics… “Full Factory support Rides” which was a disadvantage for Rossi compared to them in his Rookie year. Imagine Rossi on his Rookie year with all that Pedrosa has had from HRC to back him up, “If” does not exist, I can only imagine!
Thing is there are talented young riders out there who don't need to have visited a racetrack before to do well there as they're generally a good rider. I'm not saying they have the ability of winning on their first outing but with the right bike you never know.
Thing is there are talented young riders out there who don't need to have visited a racetrack before to do well there as they're generally a good rider. I'm not saying they have the ability of winning on their first outing but with the right bike you never know.
