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Rules changes in wake of 2015 discussion

Joined Feb 2007
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I have thought about this extensively and for the life of me I cannot see a rule that could be legitimately enforced . How could you possibly enforce a rule that would be based on paranoia,or nothing but opinion. The only rule that could legitimately come from this would be a rule about bringing the sport into disrepute with unfounded accusations. Maybe I'm missing something, anyone here have any suggestions on what is being discussed by the FIM, Dorna,manufacturers and teams

MotoGP eyes changes after 2015 Valentino Rossi/Marc Marquez spat - MotoGP news - AUTOSPORT.com
 
I have thought about this extensively and for the life of me I cannot see a rule that could be legitimately enforced . How could you possibly enforce a rule that would be based on paranoia,or nothing but opinion. The only rule that could legitimately come from this would be a rule about bringing the sport into disrepute with unfounded accusations. Maybe I'm missing something, anyone here have any suggestions on what is being discussed by the FIM, Dorna,manufacturers and teams

MotoGP eyes changes after 2015 Valentino Rossi/Marc Marquez spat - MotoGP news - AUTOSPORT.com
Many sports have that kind of rule, in regard to bringing the sport into disrepute I mean. I am not sure such rules produce much beyond very boring public statements, and I have certainly enjoyed the likes of Sheene, Roberts, Doohan and even Stoner saying whatever the .... they felt like in the past.

Perhaps some sort of rules against accusing other riders of cheating without any evidence, or disputing decisions made by RD would be reasonable, but would need to be very carefully crafted. Surprisingly for me, I don't think the Rossi end of season narrative has completely prevailed in any case, so to some extent such things may be self-policing.
 
Many sports have that kind of rule, in regard to bringing the sport into disrepute I mean. I am not sure such rules produce much beyond very boring public statements, and I have certainly enjoyed the likes of Sheene, Roberts, Doohan and even Stoner saying whatever the .... they felt like in the past.

Perhaps some sort of rules against accusing other riders of cheating without any evidence, or disputing decisions made by RD would be reasonable, but would need to be very carefully crafted. Surprisingly for me, I don't think the Rossi end of season narrative has completely prevailed in any case, so to some extent such things may be self-policing.

Maybe I'm reading the entire narrative the wrong way, but it sure seems as if they are trying to come up with a rule that would prevent riders that are mathematically eliminated from somehow interfering in the championship. I'm saying it can't be done legitimately short of removing those riders from the track. Let's face it, RD took Rossi 's side and said that in their opinion, Marquez was interfering with Rossi but could not penalize him because there was no rule against what they believed he was doing. It seems like they are looking for a rule they can use just on their opinion, but no facts.
 
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It seems to me that there was no such rule mentioned in that article. They purposefully left it vague.

Where are you guys getting your ideas about a "no trash talk" rule or a "no interference" rule? Is that going around on other chatrooms or something?
 
It seems to me that there was no such rule mentioned in that article. They purposefully left it vague.

Where are you guys getting your ideas about a "no trash talk" rule or a "no interference" rule? Is that going around on other chatrooms or something?

Sheer speculation, but what else could they be discussing . They are meeting to devise a rule to ensure what they think happened will not happen again. Either they are considering muffling the riders on what they can come out and say, or they are devising a rule about interfering, which I personally don't think can be done .
 
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Maybe I'm reading the entire narrative the wrong way, but it sure seems as if they are trying to come up with a rule that would prevent riders that are mathematically eliminated from somehow interfering in the championship. I'm saying it can't be done legitimately short of removing those riders from the track. Let's face it, RD took Rossi 's side and said that in their opinion, Marquez was interfering with Rossi but could not penalize him because there was no rule against what they believed he was doing. It seems like they are looking for a rule they can use just on their opinion, but no facts.

That's the way I see it also. I can't help but notice how the gears and cogs of DORNA are turning after 2015 ended the way it did.

"There are many people involved, many teams and manufacturers. Everybody is sharing their input together."

I'll take that with a large grain of salt.
 
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Maybe I'm reading the entire narrative the wrong way, but it sure seems as if they are trying to come up with a rule that would prevent riders that are mathematically eliminated from somehow interfering in the championship. I'm saying it can't be done legitimately short of removing those riders from the track. Let's face it, RD took Rossi 's side and said that in their opinion, Marquez was interfering with Rossi but could not penalize him because there was no rule against what they believed he was doing. It seems like they are looking for a rule they can use just on their opinion, but no facts.

If they did do that the sport would be a farce and I would be gone; cf what Ant West said about non-contending riders not being allowed to race Rossi. As Jumkie says there are currently only 4 bikes which can win in the first race of the season.
 
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As Jumkie says there are currently only 4 bikes which can win in the first race of the season.
I still contend that with one of the top 4 riders, the satellite Yamaha, Honda and factory Ducati is capable of winning races. It doesn't happen often, but on the occasion when one of these bikes finish's a second off the lead (example 2015 Qatar andPI) I have no doubt that with the right rider, they would have won. Crutch low had similar finishes on the tech 3 and Bradley has had one or two close to the top finishes that could be wins with Lorenzo or Rossi on board. Bradl and Bautista on the Honda had finishes that could be wins with Marquez in the seat. They are capable, maybe the rider isn't
 
Sheer speculation, but what else could they be discussing . They are meeting to devise a rule to ensure what they think happened will not happen again. Either they are considering muffling the riders on what they can come out and say, or they are devising a rule about interfering, which I personally don't think can be done .

Sure, I would be happy to amend my contention to 4 bike/rider combinations, I don't share Jumkie's belief that the 4 riders on the Yamaha and Honda factory bikes are not also the best riders, but they don't need any extra help imo.

I am not going to get too worked up about what is merely speculative, but if they legislate to impose the " Valentino rule" VR invented for late season 2015 I will genuinely give up following the sport, which I have previously done for philosophical reasons in regard to a football code I had followed since childhood and which my father played at the highest level.

This was my absolute objection to VR's late season rigmarole. I would have been happy to acknowledge any championship he won on his merits, which he looked like doing for much of the season, but it was self serving nonsense to suggest that once he had a lead no-one but Jorge could race him, given he had gained the lead with everyone racing Jorge. As Mick Doohan said in regard to that proposition (or at least the title of the article which contained the interview with him did) "it's all ........". He is a man in a position to comment as well, having lost a championship he had absolutely dominated against other great riders in 1992 by a similar margin. I have never heard any suggestion from him that Wayne Rainey won that title by default due to his crash and injury, and nor do I recall him asking for riders not in contention for the championship not to beat him in the last 2 races of that season when he returned to ride on one leg in a desperate attempt to win the title.

It is very simple, Doohan needed not to crash at Assen if he wanted to win the title in 1992 just as Rossi needed to be faster in the late season races in 2015.
 
I'm not going to say anything about "giving up MotoGP" if they come up with a rule that is good only for Rossi. It will be annoying, but there are a lot of intelligent people out there who watch MotoGP. And if a rule is made that blatantly stems from Rossi having major influence in Dorna, that will serve more to tarnish his legacy in the long run than it will to benefit him in 2016. Surely there are people out there who maybe can't see through the B.S. right now, but would be able to if the pro-Rossi bias were made so blatantly public.

I have hope.
 
I still contend that with one of the top 4 riders, the satellite Yamaha, Honda and factory Ducati is capable of winning races.

I'd agree with this statement with the caveat that all 4 of the top factory bikes happen to have trouble that weekend. Maybe a factory Yamaha burns up an engine and causes a crash that messes up the frame in the warmup. Maybe the other factory Yamaha has a rider with a fever. Maybe one of the Repsol Honda boys (Pedrosa) is out with a broken collarbone and the other one just can't get the bike to work on the tires that weekend.

Put all that together, and sure, a Satellite Yamaha might win.

Basically I'm agreeing with the statement that it is a 4 bike championship.
 
I'm not going to say anything about "giving up MotoGP" if they come up with a rule that is good only for Rossi. It will be annoying, but there are a lot of intelligent people out there who watch MotoGP. And if a rule is made that blatantly stems from Rossi having major influence in Dorna, that will serve more to tarnish his legacy in the long run than it will to benefit him in 2016. Surely there are people out there who maybe can't see through the B.S. right now, but would be able to if the pro-Rossi bias were made so blatantly public.

I have hope.

I would be upset partly because such a rule would have been instigated on the basis of the late season Rossi instigated brouhaha and add credence to his narrative, but such a rule could work against him and for Jorge next season and I would still be vehemently opposed to it. I just think such a rule would make the sport a farce and confirm those who now control the sport have no idea about what they have inherited or bought.
 
I think they want to make Rossi win..Dorna and FIM all are with Rossi, in fact, they made him win all the championships between 1996 and 2015
Rossi is 20th times world champion but they are fake titles
 
I think they want to make Rossi win..Dorna and FIM all are with Rossi, in fact, they made him win all the championships between 1996 and 2015
Rossi is 20th times world champion but they are fake titles

We are discussing something hypothetical which I generally try to avoid but there seem to be only 2 things concerning which they could be discussing making rules to avert any controversies similar to that at the end of the 2015 season, those being gagging the riders or putting limits on racing, to both of which I am opposed if I didn't make myself clear.

I remain very happy to acknowledge the many well deserved titles ( 7/9) Rossi did win, it is the awarding of titles he didn't actually win to him or the belittling of the titles of others to which I object, most notably the 2015 and 2007 titles to which you display the attitude typical of your ilk.
 
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There is a big YELLOW elephant in the room, nobody in that meeting or reporters reporting are talking about it. Even in this article, again they characterize it as a mutal "spat" that requires this emergency meeting for the entire paddock to address some supposed flaw in the system that has been exploited. The extraordinary reaction of the League continues to mobilize around Rossi, this is an extension of the extreme measure to silence everyone, the press including HRC to insulate Rossi from the precedings of "The Grand Finale".

What solitary thing can we say Marquez instigated or perpetrated in this "spat", "feud", "fight"?

Answer: zero. None. Zilch. Nada.

(Oh I know boppers have a long laundry list of smoking guns: Marquez wining PI to help Lorenzo, passing cleanly at Sepang, and not dive bombing Lorenzo at Valencia, yes all crimes against humanity!)

What is there to discuss? I see only one thing there needs to be done: to make a unified statement and denounce in no uncertain terms Rossi’s meltdown and describe it as an extreme example of unsportsmanlike behavior antithetical to sport. VR tried to win the championship by dubious acts off and on the track while successfully poisoning the perception of millions of fans and worse the league and experts who were supposed to be impartial. He single handedly damaged the reputation of Marquez and that of GP's governance (the irony being, at least in the eyes of those that thought it was impartial until it's hand was forced to slap Rossi with the minimum sanction possible for deliberately crashing out a fellow competitor). I would think that after going back and analyzing the event the powers that be would have come to their senses. Damn, I underestimate their willingness to circle the wagons around the Golden Child. There is absolutely nothing else there to discuss. A rule to do what? Stop wining races when you're not a contender? Don't pass contenders cleanly? Divebomb for a win only if it doesn't involve Rossi?

The article is extremely vague, but what possible need for all hands on deck to discuss the Rossi orchestrated debacle if it's not to sanction him? Which God knows that will never happen. Therefore the meeting is convened with the working premise, Marquez is a cheater, and we must prevent this from ever happening again.

The championship was in fact altered, it was only by Rossi crashing out a competitor for the podium points. Which he kept despite his deliberate action to eliminate the competitor outside the rules of contest.
 
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I'm not going to say anything about "giving up MotoGP" if they come up with a rule that is good only for Rossi. It will be annoying, but there are a lot of intelligent people out there who watch MotoGP. And if a rule is made that blatantly stems from Rossi having major influence in Dorna, that will serve more to tarnish his legacy in the long run than it will to benefit him in 2016. Surely there are people out there who maybe can't see through the B.S. right now, but would be able to if the pro-Rossi bias were made so blatantly public.

I have hope.
Newsflash, see the thread titled "Rossi Rule". They already made a rule that specifically favors Rossi's situation for the 2016 season.
 
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Maybe I'm reading the entire narrative the wrong way, but it sure seems as if they are trying to come up with a rule that would prevent riders that are mathematically eliminated from somehow interfering in the championship.


"They" are doing no such thing, because it is, as you rightly say, completely impossible. If such a rule existed, then they would have had to penalize Pedrosa for Aragon, Iannone for Phillip Island, Marquez for Sepang, and taking it to the extreme, Marquez and Pedrosa for being between Rossi and Lorenzo at Valencia.

As I understand it, the changes they are looking for relate to the way disciplinary punishments are enforced during the race. This is basically about trying to get Race Direction (or a body or judge which will act solely on disciplinary matters during races) to enforce penalties as much as possible during races, rather than after the fact.

That is a ....... stupid idea. Like the death penalty, in-race penalties cannot be overturned. It is also very easy to make a mistake when you are under pressure to make a decision. Better to wait until the race is over, then review the incident as carefully as necessary to determine who did what, and who should be punished.

I have a list of people as long as my arm to talk to at Sepang.
 
"They" are doing no such thing, because it is, as you rightly say, completely impossible. If such a rule existed, then they would have had to penalize Pedrosa for Aragon, Iannone for Phillip Island, Marquez for Sepang, and taking it to the extreme, Marquez and Pedrosa for being between Rossi and Lorenzo at Valencia.

As I understand it, the changes they are looking for relate to the way disciplinary punishments are enforced during the race. This is basically about trying to get Race Direction (or a body or judge which will act solely on disciplinary matters during races) to enforce penalties as much as possible during races, rather than after the fact.

That is a ....... stupid idea. Like the death penalty, in-race penalties cannot be overturned. It is also very easy to make a mistake when you are under pressure to make a decision. Better to wait until the race is over, then review the incident as carefully as necessary to determine who did what, and who should be punished.

I have a list of people as long as my arm to talk to at Sepang.
Thanx for the insight Kropo.

However, Rossi very clearly lost self-control at Sepang. On nothing more than his personal perception, not exactly something predictable in humans. At that moment he became a severe danger unless you or anybody predicted he'd try to crash out a rider, then neither could predict he was done with his lapse of self-control. Why do you think it's a stupid idea for a 'safey body' to take action to immediately mitigate a dangerous rider in real time?

Edit: my fear would be that RD would have black flagged Marquez for their perception that he was dubiously altering the contest...'racing cleanly' and all. Bottom line, this thing revolves around Rossi. No Thursday accusations, no deliberately crashing out Marc, no all-hands-on-deck meeting to 'fix a problem'.
 
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Thanx for the insight Kropo.

However, Rossi very clearly lost self-control at Sepang. On nothing more than his personal perception, not exactly something predictable in humans. At that moment he became a severe danger unless you or anybody predicted he'd try to crash out a rider, then neither could predict he was done with his lapse of self-control. Why do you think it's a stupid idea for a 'safey body' to take action to immediately mitigate a dangerous rider in real time?

Edit: my fear would be that RD would have black flagged Marquez for their perception that he was dubiously altering the contest...'racing cleanly' and all. Bottom line, this thing revolves around Rossi. No Thursday accusations, no deliberately crashing out Marc, no all-hands-on-deck meeting to 'fix a problem'.

The only discussion at Sepang was over whether Rossi should have been black-flagged or given a ride through. Personally, I think RD made the right call.
 
The only discussion at Sepang was over whether Rossi should have been black-flagged or given a ride through. Personally, I think RD made the right call.
Thanx for the reply. I appreciate it.


Just for the sake of argument, please hear me out Kropo. Rossi ceased the act of racing, ceased the contest within accepted parameters (rules) looked over twice to gauge his target, and later confirmed what was obvious to the viewer (including those tasked to offer the play by play commentary) that his action to neutralize his rival 'outside the rules' was deliberate. If this wasn't black flag worthy, nothing should be logically. No matter how egregious, since the standard you're proposing, one that can (and did) alter the championship was crossed decidedly 'outside the regulations' where everything beyond that point is just a question of magnitude, this is irrational (with all due respect). Allow me to elaborate my rationale.

For the sake of hyperbole, I'm reminded of a quote by the first women Nobel Peace prize recipient, who quipped about mitigating war, "was like regulating the temperature when boiling someone in oil." Once you've allowed the line to be crossed, beyond it highlights the absurdity of arguing magnitude. Especially in the case where eliminating the obvious danger is appropriate for "safety". Shelving the notion of deterrence. Why black flag for example, a rider with dangling equipment that 'may or may not' dislodge? Granted, you disagree that Rossi posed no immediate danger, based on faith I imagine, which is reasonable, perhaps. However, in the context that nobody predicted VR's action to crash Marc nor what action he might have taken next in real time, was an act of faith.

The logic for no immediate action, if we test it based on its rationale of being 'a death penalty' (we're both fans of hyperbole) would allow any rider to do the same in any contest where the points gained would ..... a 3 point penalty tally, one that has no immediate effect on a clean license; and in Rossi’s case, no immediate effect given the new Rossi Rule specifically for him in 2016. You can argue that RD would step in on obvious usurping of the 'spirit' of the "rules" except I contend that's what effectively happened at Sepang 15, at very least unintended this was the actual outcome. The 3 points would have allowed Rossi the 16 points procured illegally (yes illegally, a point which should not be overlooked) then started where he qualified at Valencia had it not been for the 1 point he carried on his license. In a sport where contestants and teams are actively looking for loopholes in the rules (les we forget the last time we saw a black flag issued, or the short lived Factory 2 designation, etc.) it seems troubling that we might place trust in them self-policing the 'spirit of the rules'. It sounds you would be advocating for a system that gives the benefit of the doubt to a group of individuals decidedly looking for weaknesses in the system, in a question of safety no less. The flip side, as I said before, is the danger that RD could abuse that power to alter the championship. How many fans would have been in favor had RD black flagged or issued at least a ride through for Marquez at Sepang for 'unsafe' riding? I can hear the Rossi fans now (and frankly most of the experts) saying how they would have agreed with RD stepping in on a "dangerous" situation.

You're not alone in your stance that Rossi was undeserving of a black flag. However, with all due respect (.) I'm more aligned with Casey Stoner's opinion (while in the minority ) that in a 'normal world, Rossi would have been black flagged.'




Edit: Nobel; Bertha von Suttner. Sorry, history nerd.
 
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