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Rossi gets new electronic package

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 14 2008, 12:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>eurosport lads today said stoner's bike had gone back to the 07 engine since donny. so much for being the same bike as marco's eh!
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Doh, maybe the Norwegian guys got it the wrong way. They have B.Eursport in the ear but they are not the brightest; They are all ex racers
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Jul 12 2008, 04:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"Yamaha brought some new software to Germany as they seek to close the gap to Stoner and Ducati"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69055

looks like yamaha and rossi is not happy and is trying to seek an unfair advantage, if he cant win then he demands everything. how about looking in the mirror rossi
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To counter the unfair advantage Ducati have discovered?
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Thats racing, this kind of thing goes on all the time.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#46 @ Jul 12 2008, 11:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hey Blue Cielo,thanks for this great article ! Why don't you just upload it here ? Here I'll do it for you....

...........
Stoner said they have a great progression after the Catalunya 2- day test, great progress? will you believe that in Barcelona Stoner's testing has nothing to do with anything mechanical, physical, metal, or tangible? They tested mainly on the software...

..............
Please note! I have no intention to take away something from Stoner, Rossi, Ducati or any other team. I just think it is strange that the engineers/programmers/ now decide of how to make a fast bike, not a rider. Even Rossi urged Yamaha to update the software of his Yamaha.

Strange, but true.


Note I mentioned Rossi either, so I hope that's fair enough....

Full article on :
http://motogpf1.blogspot.com/

Thanks #46...
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Yes, it has been an endless debating about this thing. I tried to point out that racing after 990cc era is not the same anymore... TC, TCS ... you name it... just take over the rider skill, rider just full-throttle and the TC controls everything. We can't deny they need it for safety reason.. but it should be controlled in limited access to the bike.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blue Cielo @ Jul 14 2008, 09:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thanks #46...
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Yes, it has been an endless debating about this thing. I tried to point out that racing after 990cc era is not the same anymore... TC, TCS ... you name it... just take over the rider skill, rider just full-throttle and the TC controls everything. We can't deny they need it for safety reason.. but it should be controlled in limited access to the bike.
So boring isn't it...and how do I miss "powerslide" in the past..
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blue Cielo @ Jul 14 2008, 03:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>just full-throttle and the TC controls everything. We can't deny they need it for safety reason.. but it should be controlled in limited access to the bike.

The last 50% of the throttle is all rider, unfortunately it doesn't really matter as your not going to need any electronics at that point.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#46 @ Jul 14 2008, 03:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So boring isn't it...and how do I miss "powerslide" in the past..

Yes #46.. if the TC doesn't control most of the bike, I don't think the 'old' riders will complain, Loris, Rossi and Hayden (if I am not mistaken) have spoken out about this thing. They can't ride like the way they like, you must ride the way the bike has been programmed...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (an4rew @ Jul 14 2008, 03:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The last 50% of the throttle is all rider, unfortunately it doesn't really matter as your not going to need any electronics at that point.

an4rew, yes I heard that 50:50, but if you read the statement from Ramón Aurín (Nicky Hayden's telemetry analyst), about the changing from 500->990->800, the system has changed a lot, in 500 the TC only control to limit the power of the bike if it's raining. in 800 cc, the system control all bike. In harsh words... You only need to get on the bike, full gas and the TC will control the bike... So no wonder, Jorge Lorenzo and Andrea Dovizioso adapted very quickly and get fast instantly.

I remembered when Dovi said 800cc is very easy to ride, not like 250cc which is very basic and manual.

oh yes, if you like to read Ramon's interview... please check here:
http://www.crash.net/motorsport/motogp/new...ry_analyst.html
(it's very interesting and good knowledge)
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blue Cielo @ Jul 14 2008, 04:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>an4rew, yes I heard that 50:50, but if you read the statement from Ramón Aurín (Nicky Hayden's telemetry analyst), about the changing from 500->990->800, the system has changed a lot, in 500 the TC only control to limit the power of the bike if it's raining. in 800 cc, the system control all bike. In harsh words... You only need to get on the bike, full gas and the TC will control the bike... So no wonder, Jorge Lorenzo and Andrea Dovizioso adapted very quickly and get fast instantly.

I remembered when Dovi said 800cc is very easy to ride, not like 250cc which is very basic and manual.
I absolutely agree that the 800 formula is a disaster, and in my view one of the biggest problems is that far from reducing injuries it appears to have resulted in more of them. This whole argument that they are easy to ride seems logically inconsistent with the number of accidents, with victims including young riders who are among the most talented and on equipment superior to most such as pedrosa and lorenzo. The fact that among the older riders only the best rider in rossi seems to have mastered the art of riding an 800 bike fast would suggest to me that it is difficult rather than easy to do.

So by all means get rid of the formula and replace it with one requiring less or no traction control, but arguing that you can ride one of the current bikes successfully just by hopping on it and twisting the throttle to maximum and then going to sleep is arrant nonsense in my opinion.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 14 2008, 04:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>but arguing that you can ride one of the current bikes successfully just by hopping on it and twisting the throttle to maximum and then going to sleep is arrant nonsense as far as I am concerned.
Too true. This will undoubtably fall on deaf, ........ ears.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 14 2008, 04:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>QUOTE (Blue Cielo @ Jul 14 2008, 04:43 AM)
1. "I remembered when Dovi said 800cc is very easy to ride, not like 250cc which is very basic and manual".
So by all means get rid of the formula and replace it with one requiring less or no traction control, but arguing that you can ride one of the current bikes successfully just by hopping on it and twisting the throttle to maximum and then going to sleep is arrant nonsense as far as I am concerned.

1. Dovi hasn't won yet. He won on the 250's which were a challenge, his challenge is to win on an 800 and then work out if it is in fact a challenge at the pointy end of the field. It may not be a challenge to be an "also ran".

2. I don't see the difference between giving a bike a new fairing that allows the rider to gain an extra 5km/h and updating the electronics. It is a prototype and developmental series. Arguing about updates is as relevant as stating "the riders have ears". Al teams update all aspects of their bikes as the series progresses (shock horror)

3. It is apparent that not every rider can jump on one of these machines and ride it fast, the ducati has proved extremely challenging to Melandri et al. As for Melandri not getting what Casey got he may not now but he was paid more than Casey (base contract) and got everything - now they have announced a parting it may not be so but don't jump on this as proof of always, it will just be "post hoc ergo propter hoc"

4. If the prototype class is going to remain ahead of the superbike class then it must simply go faster, the speed is as important as the spectacle, if a superbike could set and hold a circuit record against a gp machine then gp would become irrelevant. The superbikes are using the ECU's as they come standard on the bike. The bikes have to be beyond the SBK series or sponsors AND manufacturers will not put up the dollars.

5. I think there are a lot of things to be trialled such as reverse grids without slowing the bikes down or placing the riders at risk. The 800 series was Honda's idea and they pushed so hard to get it, the script however has been spoiled by Ducati and I think people will have to accept that this is in fact racing. You want competition, get the other riders (apart from the top 3) to brake later and get on the gas earlier - easy.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 14 2008, 06:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So by all means get rid of the formula and replace it with one requiring less or no traction control, but arguing that you can ride one of the current bikes successfully just by hopping on it and twisting the throttle to maximum and then going to sleep is arrant nonsense as far as I am concerned.


Agreed.

There is a damn site more to riding a bike that jumping on and twisting the throttle to stop.

It is my understanding that thus far TC is not advanced enough to turn the bike, stop the bike, take evasive action as required and any other myriad of things. If/when this were to happen it would be the death knell of the sport, but at the moment we still require human input, actions and decision to work with the other technology. Thus, IMO it is not all about TC.





Garry
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 14 2008, 08:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Agreed.

There is a damn site more to riding a bike that jumping on and twisting the throttle to stop.

It is my understanding that thus far TC is not advanced enough to turn the bike, stop the bike, take evasive action as required and any other myriad of things. If/when this were to happen it would be the death knell of the sport, but at the moment we still require human input, actions and decision to work with the other technology. Thus, IMO it is not all about TC.
Garry
I am sure you can speak much more knowledgeably than me given your background in the sport, but I have some fairly detailed thoughts on this matter, some of which I will post. I am definitely speculating; I am no engineer nor a race bike rider.

I actually think that the law of unintended consequences has operated, and that the 800cc rules have produced the reverse of what was intended in terms of close racing and expense, and more particularly safety . These bikes are more dangerous than 990s in my opinion.

As I understand it, the rules were developed by dorna who are accountants and purveyors of media content, with a large input from honda who are basically engineers in their orientation. I think the intention was for the bikes to be powered down 990s with more rider aids so they would be slower and safer, which suited dorna for tv purposes although I am also sure that they and everybody else of course did not want to see any more katoh incidents, and honda because it allowed them to demonstrate their engineering prowess and would make riders less important, prima donna nuisances that they are.

I think powering down a 990 and increasing rider aids would have had the result that the proponents of the easy tc bikes theory claim. I may be speaking from ignorance, but to me it seems likely that 990s were designed to be stable without rider aids, and to be progressive as they approached their limits, and chuckable/slideable/correctable/ whatever.

As is often the case particularly in motorsports, the rules have been rapidly circumvented by human ingenuity, and as is also usually the case in motorsports this has involved the expenditure of bucket loads of money. I think ducati in particular have designed a bike which is not inherently stable and only rideable with tc/rider aids, like a modern fighter plane with the avionics (not an original thought by me). It is probably reasonably easy for a relative novice like michael schumacher to ride 5 seconds off stoner/rossi pace, or to ride 3 seconds off the pace like marco since he gave up, but at the limit it seems likely to me there is a knife edge between having traction and the electronic aids failing and chucking you off the bike. Hence having hair trigger reflexes, and being extremely brave have become even more important. These have always been part of traditional riding skills, but I don't think near suicidal bravery should be encouraged even unintentionally as the predominant talent; I think jorge lorenzo would probably now agree with me.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 14 2008, 09:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I am sure you can speak much more knowledgeably than me given your background in the sport, but I have some fairly detailed thoughts on this matter, some of which I will post. I am definitely speculating; I am no engineer nor a race bike rider.

I actually think that the law of unintended consequences has operated, and that the 800cc rules have produced the reverse of what was intended in terms of close racing and expense, and more particularly safety . These bikes are more dangerous than 990s in my opinion.

As I understand it, the rules were developed by dorna who are accountants and purveyors of media content, with a large input from honda who are basically engineers in their orientation. I think the intention was for the bikes to be powered down 990s with more rider aids so they would be slower and safer, which suited dorna for tv purposes although I am also sure that they and everybody else of course did not want to see any more katoh incidents, and honda because it allowed them to demonstrate their engineering prowess and would make riders less important, prima donna nuisances that they are.

I think powering down a 990 and increasing rider aids would have had the result that the proponents of the easy tc bikes theory claim. I may be speaking from ignorance, but to me it seems likely that 990s were designed to be stable without rider aids, and to be progressive as they approached their limits, and chuckable/slideable/correctable/ whatever.

As is often the case particularly in motorsports, the rules have been rapidly circumvented by human ingenuity, and as is also usually the case in motorsports this has involved the expenditure of bucket loads of money. I think ducati in particular have designed a bike which is not inherently stable and only rideable with tc/rider aids, like a modern fighter plane with the avionics (not an original thought by me). It is probably reasonably easy for a relative novice like michael schumacher to ride 5 seconds off stoner/rossi pace, or to ride 3 seconds off the pace like marco since he gave up, but at the limit it seems likely to me there is a knife edge between having traction and the electronic aids failing and chucking you off the bike. Hence having hair trigger reflexes, and being extremely brave have become even more important. These have always been part of traditional riding skills, but I don't think near suicidal bravery should be encouraged even unintentionally as the predominant talent; I think jorge lorenzo would probably now agree with me.

naaaaah f1 drivers drive within an inch of the walls at monarco at 300km/hr that is suicidal...... naaaah maybe that why these guys get paid millions and everyone else can only dream of doing what they do for a living, coz everyone in the world can do what they can do.

BANG!!! dream over and your wet all over.

now the reality, there are only a few people in the world who can ride a motogp bike and drive a f1 car at it limits, you and i and 99.999999999999% of the population are not one of them
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It's a shame to see MotoGP turn into such an electronic battle, like TC that 'knows' each corner and reacts appropriately for each one.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 14 2008, 09:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>the 800cc rules have produced the reverse of what was intended in terms of close racing

was that ever intended?

I'm not a fan of close racing, all the best victories I have ever seen were runaways. What makes you think 800's were intendd to produce close racing?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Jul 14 2008, 12:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>naaaaah f1 drivers drive within an inch of the walls at monarco at 300km/hr that is suicidal...... naaaah maybe that why these guys get paid millions and everyone else can only dream of doing what they do for a living, coz everyone in the world can do what they can do.

BANG!!! dream over and your wet all over.now the reality, there are only a few people in the world who can ride a motogp bike and drive a f1 car at it limits, you and i and 99.999999999999% of the population are not one of them
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Aww jeezus, too much info, you sein Hong Kong in your sleep??????
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 14 2008, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm not a fan of close racing

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How can you find watching one person riding off into the sunset, followed by an unchanging string of riders following behind entertaining?
That's not racing, that's a parade.
 
same as when doohan was on the 500s and rossi on the 990's.

same as michael jordan scoring 60 points, federer winin wimbledon 5 times striaght, tiger woods winning by 10 strokes, phelps winning by half a pool. thats coz thier champions, and the rest are .... compared to them

not all humans are created equal

once we race robots then u will get close racing.
 

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