[Rossi]..."at bottom of the slope." Doohan

dd

cliché guevara said:

pretty long version of the "stoner won because of a technical advantage" myth.

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The correct formula would be: Stoner won because of a potential advantage that he (and only he, in this case) was capable to exploit -- put like this, both his great skill and Ducati's efforts against the mighty Japs are credited. The same formula could apply to many other winners over the years...



A bike (or rider) with no strong points never wins.

J4rn0 said:

The correct formula would be: Stoner won because of a potential advantage that he (and only he, in this case) was capable to exploit -- put like this, both his great skill and Ducati's efforts against the mighty Japs are credited. The same formula could apply to many other winners over the years...

A bike (or rider) with no strong points never wins.

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Sure.



And for this reason if there is still a wish on the part of some to forensically examine 2007 as a cold case, the only legitimate question to ask (I direct this at the talpas of this world, not you) is whether rossi would have been fast as stoner on the 2007 ducati.



On current evidence the answer is no; however manifold valentino's superiority over stoner is in general, he has definitely not as yet demonstrated that he has championship pace, or stoner pace, on a ducati.

J4rn0 said:

The correct formula would be: Stoner won because of a potential advantage that he (and only he, in this case) was capable to exploit -- put like this, both his great skill and Ducati's efforts against the mighty Japs are credited. The same formula could apply to many other winners over the years...

A bike (or rider) with no strong points never wins.

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+1 Precisely

cliché guevara said:

pretty long version of the "stoner won because of a technical advantage" myth.

Click to expand...

You're effectively saying that you believe that Stoner would have outdone Rossi on the Yamaha. As someone else said on another thread, Stoner has almost been matched by Pedrosa on the Honda, i.e. a bike that doesn't handle like a pig. As the Yamaha doesn't handle like a pig, and Rossi seems to be able to click his fingers and make Pedrosa's spine turn to spaghetti, why do you think that Stoner would have done any better than Rossi on the Yamaha?

michaelm said:

Sure.



And for this reason if there is still a wish on the part of some to forensically examine 2007 as a cold case, the only legitimate question to ask (I direct this at the talpas of this world, not you) is whether rossi would have been fast as stoner on the 2007 ducati.



On current evidence the answer is no; however manifold valentino's superiority over stoner is in general, he has definitely not as yet demonstrated that he has championship pace, or stoner pace, on a ducati.

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Actually I have answered the same question to Jum, saying these "what if" exercises are mental onanism. But I did not want to evade the question altogether, so I also added that the 2007 Ducati was difficult to beat "in the right hands", and "imho" the best hands are Rossi and Stoner. Rossi does not have Stoner's capacity to be immediately fast on any fast bike, but he has his own great qualities and even if in a more gradual way he'll be able to ride the Ducati fast.



On the Ducati so far the (recovering) Rossi has been slower than Stoner especially when comparing fast laps, but his race pace has not been that far from Stoner's 2010 -- and in the wet he is already at the top. The fact that this year there are always three or four very fast Hondas in the top 7 is not helping him in reaching the podium, but as soon as he recovers his 100% fitness he will be a regular up there again, as usual. I'd say after Estoril he will be more and more on the pace, at least in the race -- he'll probably struggle for some more time in qualification.

J4rn0 said:

On the Ducati so far the (recovering) Rossi has been slower than Stoner especially when comparing fast laps, but his race pace has not been that far from Stoner's 2010 -- and in the wet he is already at the top. The fact that this year there are always three or four very fast Hondas in the top 7 is not helping him in reaching the podium, but as soon as he recovers his 100% fitness he will be a regular up there again, as usual. I'd say after Estoril he will be more and more on the pace, at least in the race -- he'll probably struggle for some more time in qualification.

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I have been making these points too. The background relevant to hypothesis are:

1. Ducati 2011 qatar bike is basically same as Ducati at Valencia 2010

2. Since everyone assumes (whether correctly or incorrectly) that Ducati didn't 'move heaven and earth' during the season when Stoner was there, you can also arrive at the conclusion Ducati at Qatar 2010 is very similar to Ducati at Qatar 2011.

3. Rossi's fastest lap was slower than Stoner's by 0.5-.06 secs (IIRC)

4. Given the shoulder injury and the limited test time, him being 0.5 secs behind Stoner on an identical bike on which Stoner had 3 years experience, I guess Rossi's Qatar performance was not that bad! (It's just that the Honda's stepped up and stole the show)

woody996 said:

You're effectively saying that you believe that Stoner would have outdone Rossi on the Yamaha. As someone else said on another thread, Stoner has almost been matched by Pedrosa on the Honda, i.e. a bike that doesn't handle like a pig. As the Yamaha doesn't handle like a pig, and Rossi seems to be able to click his fingers and make Pedrosa's spine turn to spaghetti, why do you think that Stoner would have done any better than Rossi on the Yamaha?

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Because failing getting Stoer on Rossi's bike ( Stoner on a Yam ) we could get Rossi on Stoners bike ( Rossi on a Ducati ) .......... and Rossi can not ride it.



Rossi made all the other Ducati rider's efforts look sensible.



Rossi is about about 1.5 seconds slower .......... on the yam it would be similar.

So why is stoner not 1.5 secs ahead of Pedrosa? Or are you now placing Rossi's skill level a long way below Pedrosa's. You know but won't admit that performances on the ducati mean nothing in comparison to a bike setup the way Rossi likes it and stoner on a bike setup the way he likes it. Incidentally, I don't think the difference is 1.5 secs anymore.

woody996 said:

So why is stoner not 1.5 secs ahead of Pedrosa? Or are you now placing Rossi's skill level a long way below Pedrosa's. You know but won't admit that performances on the ducati mean nothing in comparison to a bike setup the way Rossi likes it and stoner on a bike setup the way he likes it. Incidentally, I don't think the difference is 1.5 secs anymore.

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Because Pedrosa is about 0.5 seconds off Stoner for an average race lap.

like i told barry, it's somewhat like the hailwood situation where he tried out a better handling bike and couldn't go any faster than he did on a ...... handling bike... /shrug



you're going to extremes here, your argument would actually be better delivered if you stuck with reality and not rely on outlandish claims

Tekniqs said:

like i told barry, it's somewhat like the hailwood situation where he tried out a better handling bike and couldn't go any faster than he did on a ...... handling bike... /shrug



you're going to extremes here, your argument would actually be better delivered if you stuck with reality and not rely on outlandish claims

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You are aware how ironic this part is ?







Why you folk grab onto the clutching at straws "facts and figures" , that are based in your own dreams of what would explain why Rossi is not at front, is beyond me. You are fooling only yourself



These typical arguments with Rossi Boppers go the same every time.....



Boppers invent some new figures they pluck from the air, or if they are lucky use a one off lap time as a race lap ave. ........ then they ask the non-boppers to argue against that



You can't argue with a fruitcake .......... until you guys look at the real results its all just pandering to your delusions.





I swear that it almost seems like you guys go about your lives finding your way with gyroscopes, and backing it in with the back brake and downshifting !! there are other realities out there

BarryMachine said:

Because Pedrosa is about 0.5 seconds off Stoner for an average race lap.

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WTF??????



How was it that stoner wasnt 12-15 seconds ahead of pedders at Qatar then? How is it that pedders was right with him and in front before succoming to injury? Which was just treated in surgery.



And as you say if stoner was to beat Rossi on the Yamaha he would need to be much further ahead of pedders on that Honda. You've snookered yourself Bazza the great!

BarryMachine said:

I swear that it almost seems like you guys go about your lives finding your way with gyroscopes, and backing it in with the back brake and downshifting !!

there are other realities out there

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Last year you posted a link in support of your argument to the contrary. In brilliant inimitable Berry Bull style, you failed to read your own source properly - which was perhaps unfortunate in view of the fact that it prescribed the precise methodology constituting the racing technique and terminology of 'backing in' involving use of both back brake and the downshift.



Would you like me to find it and re-post?



To reiterate for any new members, Barry believes that backing in is solely achieved and all about closing the throttle in a timely manner on the approach to a corner, positioning the body and breaking traction as a result of the back sliding by pure finesse and supposedly in the case of his Ducati - engine braking minus the downshift, (or at least I think that's what he said), something he claims to routinely accomplish on the road



Y'know Barry, you are an invaluable asset to this forum. You unite both 'boppers' and 'boners' - you are the one common denominator, the mutual ground in the flame war..the unanimous verdict on this forum is that you are a complete .....

Arrabbiata1 said:

Last year you posted a link in support of your argument to the contrary. In brilliant inimitable Berry Bull style, you failed to read your own source properly - which was perhaps unfortunate in view of the fact that it prescribed the precise methodology constituting the racing technique and terminology of 'backing in'

involving use of both back brake and the downshift.



Would you like me to find it and re-post?



To reiterate for any new members, Barry believes that backing

in is solely achieved and all about closing the throttle in a timely

manner on the approach to a corner, positioning the body and

breaking traction as a result of the back sliding by pure finesse

and supposedly in the case of his Ducati - engine braking minus

the downshift, (or at least I think that's what he said), something

he claims to routinely accomplish on the road



Y'know Barry, you are an invaluable asset to this forum. You unite both 'boppers' and 'boners' - you are the one common

denominator, the mutual ground in the flame war..the unanimous

verdict on this forum is that you are a complete .....

Click to expand...

amen.

woody996 said:

You're effectively saying that you believe that Stoner would have outdone Rossi on the Yamaha. As someone else said on another thread, Stoner has almost been matched by Pedrosa on the Honda, i.e. a bike that doesn't handle like a pig. As the Yamaha doesn't handle like a pig, and Rossi seems to be able to click his fingers and make Pedrosa's spine turn to spaghetti, why do you think that Stoner would have done any better than Rossi on the Yamaha?

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Pedro "almost" matched Stoner in Qatar? Hahaha ok. I guess that gap at the finish was "almost" a win.



Hav Stoner & Rossi ever been on the same bike? ....waiting.



Oh yeah, 2 days after Valencia 2010. And guess what we discoverred? That Stoner is much better. I remember we use to talk hypothetical, what if. Well, it happened already. Same bike: advantage Stoner. So what, this is to magically cease to b true and an entirely different picture would emerge if they were both on Yamaha? Newsflash, Pedro, a fellow " alien" got his ... handed to him by Stoner since day F..ing one on his own bike. I hav no doubt thats exactly what would hav happened on a Yamaha. (Rossi knows how Pedro felt, since les u forget Lorenzo in effect did the same thing, that is hand Rossi his ... on his own bike too).



Ive said this before, my dream would hav been Stoner putting out a press release challenging: i will ride for free salary provided it be as Rossi's teammate, compensation soley based on a performance zero-sum-game contract mandating identical machines, winner gets paid loser get zero.



My ultimate dream would hav been Rossi to Ducati as Stoners teammate, Nicky swap for Rossis old seat at Yamaha. This way not only would we hav seen a full years vindication for Stoner fans, but for Hayden fans as well.

Barry has been upgrade from .... to .....

J4rn0 said:

Actually I have answered the same question to Jum, saying these "what if" exercises are mental onanism. But I did not want to evade the question altogether, so I also added that the 2007 Ducati was difficult to beat "in the right hands", and "imho" the best hands are Rossi and Stoner. Rossi does not have Stoner's capacity to be immediately fast on any fast bike, but he has his own great qualities and even if in a more gradual way he'll be able to ride the Ducati fast.



On the Ducati so far the (recovering) Rossi has been slower than Stoner especially when comparing fast laps, but his race pace has not been that far from Stoner's 2010 -- and in the wet he is already at the top. The fact that this year there are always three or four very fast Hondas in the top 7 is not helping him in reaching the podium, but as soon as he recovers his 100% fitness he will be a regular up there again, as usual. I'd say after Estoril he will be more and more on the pace, at least in the race -- he'll probably struggle for some more time in qualification.

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He didn't complete the jerez race at stoner pace, and the pace he did run at initially was demonstrably not sustainable. I am not being too hard on valentino, race winning pace for stoner was mostly not sustainable last year either.



I personally doubt stoner on a 2007 yamaha would have beaten rossi on a 2007 yamaha given that bike was developed by valentino to suit him, and even if stoner had equal one lap pace rossi's race craft etc could come in.



The ducati even when it was relatively better in 2007 is a unique beast though, which stoner has said could be ridden successfuly only one way, flat out from the front, and according to both valentino and loris capirossi his riding method was unusual and hard to emulate (according to valentino), or impossible to emulate (according to loris). It is possible that as was a common theory at the time he did have some unique synergy with the bike which even valentino can't replicate; as ducati said nobody can be so good at this level as to be 1.5 -2.0 seconds faster than another elite rider, and rossi wasn't 1.5 - 2.0 seconds faster than marco melandri when they were on similar bikes. I think rossi will eventually be at the front of the field as is his wont on a ducati , but it may be radically different from the ducatis stoner rode. Stoner's pace on the honda demonstrates that he does have elite pace on a more conventional bike though anyway, and this year he has shown racecraft, for as long as he was allowed to in the second race at least.



For talpa rather than you, I can make an argument that stoner could have won the 2007 championship on a honda , since dani finished second and he currently looks to be faster than him on a honda .

Jumkie said:

Pedro "almost" matched Stoner in Qatar? Hahaha ok. I guess that gap at the finish was "almost" a win.

... would hav happened on a Yamaha. (Rossi knows how Pedro felt, since les u forget Lorenzo in effect did the same thing, that

is hand Rossi his ... on his own bike too).

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So you are ignoring dani's injury and Rossi's injury. That may be because you don't think they had any effect on dani and Rossi. Ok, so on that basis, Hayden handed stoner his arse on the ducati when stoner was AWOL in 2009. You say well he was sick, had to get better before you can compare the two but you are not affording Rossi and Dani the same latitude. I know, it doesn't help your case so just ignore it eh?

woody996 said:

So you are ignoring dani's injury and Rossi's injury. That may be because you don't think they had any effect on dani and Rossi. Ok, so on that basis, Hayden handed stoner his arse on the ducati when stoner was AWOL in 2009. You say well he was sick, had to get better before you can compare the two but you are not affording Rossi and Dani the same latitude. I know, it doesn't help your case so just ignore it eh?

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Ah yes, because Pedro and Rossi were on another continent recuperating.





Fallacy of Extreme much o'buddy pal?