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Prosecutor considers action over Tomizawa death

BarryMachine said:
Because folk are saying things like Shoya was dropped off the stretcher, not just that a bearer tripped. And if he did trip or drop did it cause Shoya's death?



Only one way to get to the bottom of that is to have an official enquiry.
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Barry please, without telling me how much I make you sick for supposed fabrications which you have yet to qualify, try and understand what I have been consistently saying. In a road accident no one would be forced into a situation in which they had to hurl the critically injured onto a stretcher in order to get them off the highway. The rider in recent dreadful road accident I recently witnessed was not moved for well over an hour. These marshals should never have been in a position where they dropped the stretcher or tripped in the gravel - because Tomi should not have been moved. You said that they were frantically trying to save a life - and I don't disagree, but the response should not have been frantic - it should have been a measured procedure following an immediate red flag - and as Roger and I initially pointed out, he should have been treated where he lay.



Many people are asserting that in the event, none of this could have saved Shoya's life but that is missing the point - it could have done, besides which - there is no discretion involved in an accident of this magnitude - a red flag should be mandated.. As I say this was a sickening replay of April 6th 2003, and since that day we have witnessed a horrendous succession of accidents only for the race to continue. Moto GP Race Direction failed again.
 
oldie From BBC





Italy is practically the only country in Europe in which competitors or officials can be the subject of a criminal investigation if injuries or deaths are suffered at a motor race.



The Italian authorities treat deaths at race circuits as if they were a crash on the road. There will certainly be an investigation into what happened
 
In a road accident there is not an ambulance with a respirator 100 meters away. There is not much option for the injured in a traffic accident but to wait for the ambulance. Sure, it could create a traffic jam, but other than that moving the injured to a near by bench would do nothing in his/her favor. In Tomizawa's case, as the medical team has stated, he was not breathing and the quickest way to get him to a respirator was to stretcher him to the ambulance. If a injured is not breathing and his heart is not beating, waiting for an ambulance to show up is not going to help that situation.
 
Arrabbiata1 said:
These marshals should never have been in a position where they dropped the stretcher or tripped in the gravel - because Tomi should not have been moved. You said that they were frantically trying to save a life - and I don't disagree, but the response should not have been frantic - it should have been a measured procedure following an immediate red flag - and as Roger and I initially pointed out, he should have been treated where he lay.



Many people are asserting that in the event, none of this could have saved Shoya's life but that is missing the point - it could have done, besides which - there is no discretion involved in an accident of this magnitude - a red flag should be mandated.. As I say this was a sickening replay of April 6th 2003, and since that day we have witnessed a horrendous succession of accidents only for the race to continue. Moto GP Race Direction failed again.
Click to expand...

Hi brotha,



I have a question, perhaps I'm honestly missing something. But there has been a suggestion that when a red flag is thrown, it sets into motion a certain protocol of which treatment might have been delayed. Now I think the red flag should have been thrown, but I'm also saying that this condition/status should not have precluded the marshals under the direction of a medic (who should know what he is doing) to make the call to shuttle Shoya to the respirator. The stumbling of the marshals maybe given undue scrutiny, as getting him to the respirator might have been the utmost priority.



Again, I'd like to echo the words of Shovelhead, in that its easy for us to second guess once the cards are laid out, so I'll preface my comments with I'm just wondering here. I'm not a doc or anything, and I would certainly like to get a paramedic or emergency doc's opinion on it. But when I was in the Marines, we were given a training that said: "Start the breathing then stop the bleeding." I remember them telling me it doesn't matter if the person won't be able to walk if i disrupt a spinal injury, being dead is much worse. In other words, moving a person does not preclude the immediate need to start the breathing. The trainer said, start the breathing as soon as you can, and if this means you have to move them, do it. It seems to me in this case the breathing apparatus most likely to sustain his life was in the ambulance. That a person stumbled in the process is of no consequence (and frankly no significant delay as they continued forward) as this was just them trying to hurry to get him to the breathing apparatus, not necessarily that they were trying to get out of harms way. We look at it from the perspective that the marshals were trying to get everything out of the way for the race's sake, but perhaps we are wrong. Perhaps the marshals were under the direction of a competent medic that told them, get Shoya to the ambulance as fast as you can, his life depends on it.



I recall sitting in the stands with Gator at the Supercross event in Daytona. A rider went down, and they treated him on the spot without moving him. I remember Gator being quite annoyed with this and (if he reads this correct me if I'm wrong) but wanted them to move the injured rider and get him to a doc/hospital asap. So moving an injured person doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing, as not moving him may be more detrimental.
 
Jumkie said:
Hi brotha,



I have a question, perhaps I'm honestly missing something. But there has been a suggestion that when a red flag is thrown, it sets into motion a certain protocol of which treatment might have been delayed. Now I think the red flag should have been thrown, but I'm also saying that this condition/status should not have precluded the marshals under the direction of a medic (who should know what he is doing) to make the call to shuttle Shoya to the respirator. The stumbling of the marshals maybe given undue scrutiny, as getting him to the respirator might have been the utmost priority.



Again, I'd like to echo the words of Shovelhead, in that its easy for us to second guess once the cards are laid out, so I'll preface my comments with I'm just wondering here. I'm not a doc or anything, and I would certainly like to get a paramedic or emergency doc's opinion on it. But when I was in the Marines, we were given a training that said: "Start the breathing then stop the bleeding." I remember them telling me it doesn't matter if the person won't be able to walk if i disrupt a spinal injury, being dead is much worse. In other words, moving a person does not preclude the immediate need to start the breathing. The trainer said, start the breathing as soon as you can, and if this means you have to move them, do it. It seems to me in this case the breathing apparatus most likely to sustain his life was in the ambulance. That a person stumbled in the process is of no consequence (and frankly no significant delay as they continued forward) as this was just them trying to hurry to get him to the breathing apparatus, not necessarily that they were trying to get out of harms way. We look at it from the perspective that the marshals were trying to get everything out of the way for the race's sake, but perhaps we are wrong. Perhaps the marshals were under the direction of a competent medic that told them, get Shoya to the ambulance as fast as you can, his life depends on it.



I recall sitting in the stands with Gator at the Supercross event in Daytona. A rider went down, and they treated him on the spot without moving him. I remember Gator being quite annoyed with this and (if he reads this correct me if I'm wrong) but wanted them to move the injured rider and get him to a doc/hospital asap. So moving an injured person doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing, as not moving him may be more detrimental.
Click to expand...

Absolutley, if someone is not breathing, nothing else matters at that point. And if what they say is true, picking him up and running him to the ambulance was the only thing to do.
 
Jumkie said:
I recall sitting in the stands with Gator at the Supercross event in Daytona. A rider went down, and they treated him on the spot without moving him. I remember Gator being quite annoyed with this and (if he reads this correct me if I'm wrong) but wanted them to move the injured rider and get him to a doc/hospital asap. So moving an injured person doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing, as not moving him may be more detrimental.
Click to expand...

Hey, I agree with you this time. Not bad. Just want to add that bad crashes always have a high risk of internal bleedings and that will often require some serious surgery and time can be very critical.
 
Jumkie said:
Hi brotha,



I have a question, perhaps I'm honestly missing something. But there has been a suggestion that when a red flag is thrown, it sets into motion a certain protocol of which treatment might have been delayed. Now I think the red flag should have been thrown, but I'm also saying that this condition/status should not have precluded the marshals under the direction of a medic (who should know what he is doing) to make the call to shuttle Shoya to the respirator. The stumbling of the marshals maybe given undue scrutiny, as getting him to the respirator might have been the utmost priority.



Again, I'd like to echo the words of Shovelhead, in that its easy for us to second guess once the cards are laid out, so I'll preface my comments with I'm just wondering here. I'm not a doc or anything, and I would certainly like to get a paramedic or emergency doc's opinion on it. But when I was in the Marines, we were given a training that said: "Start the breathing then stop the bleeding." I remember them telling me it doesn't matter if the person won't be able to walk if i disrupt a spinal injury, being dead is much worse. In other words, moving a person does not preclude the immediate need to start the breathing. The trainer said, start the breathing as soon as you can, and if this means you have to move them, do it. It seems to me in this case the breathing apparatus most likely to sustain his life was in the ambulance. That a person stumbled in the process is of no consequence (and frankly no significant delay as they continued forward) as this was just them trying to hurry to get him to the breathing apparatus, not necessarily that they were trying to get out of harms way. We look at it from the perspective that the marshals were trying to get everything out of the way for the race's sake, but perhaps we are wrong. Perhaps the marshals were under the direction of a competent medic that told them, get Shoya to the ambulance as fast as you can, his life depends on it.



I recall sitting in the stands with Gator at the Supercross event in Daytona. A rider went down, and they treated him on the spot without moving him. I remember Gator being quite annoyed with this and (if he reads this correct me if I'm wrong) but wanted them to move the injured rider and get him to a doc/hospital asap. So moving an injured person doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing, as not moving him may be more detrimental.
Click to expand...

Very well put, and very well reasoned. I think that you are right to echo Shovel' I saw this live, and with the exception of the replays, my judgement was based on what I saw as it happened. I have no desire to see it again. My perception at the time was that in the absence of a red flag the imperative was to get Shoya off the circuit to ensure the continuation of the race, and possibly to move him to a position where a medic could safely attend to him. To return to your post and shovels sentiment, my perception may indeed be wrong. Firstly, we all agree that the race should have been flagged. In the case of Kato, there was no breathing equipment on hand at that moment - he was simply dumped out of the way of a race. As I have said all along, I was incensed by the continuation of the race in the light of such a horrendous crash, which had the dark shades of 2003 - I concede this my have impaired my judgement, but judging by the current furore so soon after the event, and the rapidity of these legal overtures, I would certainly stand by my original assessment that this was grossly mishandled. The race could have been stopped in seconds, as we know. Surely the necessary equipment - much of which is as I understand portable - could have then been deployed to scene quicker than bundling a severely injured rider on to a stretcher and negotiating a hundred metres of gravel trap. Furthermore, an air ambulance should surely always be on standby at this level. That could have landed on the circuit within minutes - although not when the priority it would seem was to continue running a race which was in the light of such a terrible crash, simply irrelevant.



As you say - without being in possession of the full facts, none of us will know until pending a full inquest.
 
aww jumkie you remember me!! haha it is me, i had another account but created this for a reason i cannot remember. had to take time away after my laptop broke and i forgot about the good old forum until now. i am back and im much more opinionated
<
have fun

but in all fairness, i think standard proceedure when you see a crash like that, with a rider stone cold out of it, would be to red flag the race. thats just common sense?
 
Louise. said:
aww jumkie you remember me!! haha it is me, i had another account but created this for a reason i cannot remember. had to take time away after my laptop broke and i forgot about the good old forum until now. i am back and im much more opinionated
<
have fun

but in all fairness, i think standard proceedure when you see a crash like that, with a rider stone cold out of it, would be to red flag the race. thats just common sense?
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Oh very cool. Im glad. We had some exchanges back then. Well welcome back. Its good to hav some of the old school around. Yup agree with ur take above.



Arrabi, i think we both agree, having the race proceed appears to be part of the equation in the administration of a race, an element that has no place in the formula of good faith common sense safety.
 
A lot of speculation here. I think the only one who can answer the question here is Gator. No just because he is a doc (because they're all douschebags with vastly varying opinions) but because an ER doc is quite familar with how first responders treat trauma victims. I can say that I have never seen paramedics airlift anyone without immobilization first. I took EMT classes back in the day and I clearly remember that if a victim had to be moved than there was at least one person stabilizing the head and neck manually while others carried the stretcher. I only saw the crash replay so I don't know if that happened..

One thing is for certain that if a rider is knocked the .... out and laying in the track than a red flag must be thrown. There can be no arguements agains't that fact and if there is than it is a sport I really don't care to watch any more
 
Mick.. Rossi.. 46 No1... :-) said:
After all you have posted in other threads? JesuS, make your mind up!!
<




Another case of "revving your mouth before you put your brain into gear" ........ read the rest first
<






The race should have been stopped and the rider treated where he fell. Thats just common sense. Nobody would have dropped a stretcher then would they?
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This has been adequately answered by many others since I see ..... sometimes trained personel don't operate on "common sense"
<
thank christ they work of the training they have or even immediate input from what they are experiencing ..... not fans 10,000km away at the other end of a TV signal, passing on their "common sense"
<




Given that it was a life and death situation, the timing will also be in question. ie. if he required a respirator/life support. How come it took them so long to respond on track? Was he left lying there for too much time? What would cause trained medics to do that? Was it crowd pressure from hundreds of thousands of fans there filled to the brim with "common sense" could it have affected the on site doctors decision by fear of not afronting a crowd with what is a very invasive action on the patient? Especially if the sentiment of the crowd is to stand around doing nothing for the next 2 minutes other than to utter the phrase "don't move the patient you could damage him" regardless of injuries that probably rendered all trackside help impossible or futile.



Only a "blow by blow" independent inquiry will produce a more believable answer to that, than say DORNA, who may be seen as having a "vested interest".
 
Jumkie said:
Perhaps the marshals were under the direction of a competent medic that told them, get Shoya to the ambulance as fast as you can, his life depends on it.
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Are you saying that the medics on site :



0609_Tomizawa_a.jpg


PA815697.jpg




were incompetent?



Again there seems a lot of denial going on here about there just being "marshals" at the incident.Perhaps its cos the marshals placed the bales upside down, but those bales have words which say on them "DOCTOR", or perhaps some folk thought they were just a bunch of Rossifans? .......... The Doctors were there!!!! they did appear to be in radio contact ( probably with Clinica Mobile? ) but I'm sure they made a very well informed and considered decision to get him to life supprt fast.



These guys in that photo appeared to be "working like "trojans", there are many more images on the net of them doing so but I don't want to go there.
 
Berry, im convinced u skip over most words on posts and reply to perhaps the easy words u manage to read. Because ur question above is completely disconnected from what i posted. Oh, and ur attempt at humor, fail. Dude, very poor. I think uv lost ur way in this argument if ur actually debating me.
 
Jumkie said:
Berry, im convinced u skip over most words on posts and reply to perhaps the easy words u manage to read. Because ur question above is completely disconnected from what i posted. Oh, and ur attempt at humor, fail. Dude, very poor. I think uv lost ur way in this argument if ur actually debating me.
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<
 
Don't they have portable respirators? If so wouldn't that be easier to take from the ambulance to the rider?





Investigation is a must.

The main thing about the Prosecutor investigating shouldn't be to charge someone, it is should be that any errors are identified and procedures improved for the benifit of all in the future.



This is too much like Daijiro Kato all over again. Was nothing learned from his tragic loss?





Anyone watch WSBK on the weekend?

They red flagged a race where Corser & Haslam both walked away. Much better race control from WSBK.
 
Jumkie said:
Berry, im convinced u skip over most words on posts and reply to perhaps the easy words u manage to read. Because ur question above is completely disconnected from what i posted. Oh, and ur attempt at humor, fail. Dude, very poor. I think uv lost ur way in this argument if ur actually debating me.
Click to expand...



Its not a debate here Drunkie, I merely corrected a falsehood you where operating under. Especially given the situation I think its pertinent folk stay objective not create ........ and falsehoods. Answer to my correction of you if anything not your usual booze adled crap
<
.

And to your suggestion of there being humour in my post perhaps I need to put it straight to you .... its not humour ... because of the constant disrespectful misinformation being put forward by the likes of yourself, its not humour, its angry satire.



Same for your idiotic buddy MickRossi 46 who merely postes an agreement to anything anti-me. Never says a thing pertinent just posts and agrees with any crap that seems to disagree with me.



Now back to the post at hand ....... do you still maintain there were no competent medics on site, very early? SInce Mick .... Rossi 46 agrees with you would he like to answer?
 
The fall from the stretcher in no way was the contributing factor in Tomizawa's death. Being run over by two bikes was. Seeing how they are saying his death was almost instantaneous, possibly a aorta severing or rib piercing his heart ala Lane Frost would quickly kill him. A fall of less than a foot in to the gravel after the fact would be inconsequential.



The marshall's should in no way be held culpable for his death. They were only taking the direction of the trained medical staff, which should always take priority when a rider is down. From what I have read, Tomizawa wasn't breathing, that is the #1 priority in triaging a patient. The ABC of assessing a patient is always Airway, Bleeding, and Circulation in that order. The medics on scene knew this and tried to get Tomi to a respirator as soon as possible. Ever try carrying someone on a litter? I have, plenty of times, in conditions a lot worse than running through some gravel. From what I could tell there were way too many people carrying that litter and with so many feet in such close proximity a fall was bound to happen. It doesn't however make those involved criminally liable.



Bottom line, the race should have been red flagged. There is no excuse. I'm not sure who the prosecutor is going after, race direction I suppose. They can look to blame whoever, but this was nothing more than an unfortunate accident and I hope they finally learn something from Tomizawa's untimely death.
 
So if Jorge knew before going to the grid Dorna.Race control did why didn't they cancel the Motogp race in respect

.......s



Jorge's Blog Translated – A Tribute to Shoya Tomizawa

Posted by Gaelle on Tuesday, September 7, 2010 · View Comments



This blog entry was posted by Jorge Lorenzo today. It is dedicated to Shoya Tomizawa who tragically left us last weekend…

http://www.motoracer...a-tomizawa.html





The original post can be found HERE http://diariodeunpil...cado-a-ti-shoya



Shoya Tomizawa - a bright star gone too soon...



Dedicated to you, Shoya.

Today, I have no desire to write about what happened but I won't give my blog a miss.



So yes, I am not going to talk about races but only say Goodbye to a friend of us all.



He was a star, always with a smile, friendly, nice and a fighter.



When I saw the crash, I thought aloud that the worse thing had happened.



Before going to the grid, it was confirmed to me. It was not official but the source was credible.



We will miss you. Rest in peace.



Farewell to a Brave

Today it is a day when words could not express it all but I do not want to miss my appointment with you.

However, it won’t be an entertaining read….



I don’t want to talk about anything else, only Shoya, a rider admired in the paddock probably more because of the kind of person he was than his riding.

But he was a friend of everyone.



We said goodbye to a brave man with his boots on and we will never forget.



His last pole

Shoya was a person with star quality and something special that always made everyone speak well of him.

He stopped in the paddock and always smiled.

He was a current rider who suddenly came out of anonymity this season and everyone began to know how to pronounce the name of the first winner of a Moto2 race.



There were talks of progression and a bright future.



Every time we spoke, he was always cordial, polite and nice.



I was amused because of the number 48, the same number I won the first title of my career.



The last time we spoke was at the press conference after the qualifying session at Brno, less than 3 weeks ago. I was happy, as he had got the second pole of his life.



Kato

Suddenly he is gone, just like Kato in 2003.



Another death I’ve experienced from within the paddock, and exactly 17 years ago to the day, Wayne Rainey was paralysed.



The terrible thing is that we should continue, we cannot be stopped.



Life goes on and the reason why we fight for our sport is because it is safer than it used to be.

But in our minds, there will always be that moment, that terrifying exit of the corner where a fatal error occurred.



It was about 12:30 pm and I was in the motor home watching a group of riders chasing Toni Elias.

I was watching while warming up and suddenly I thought that the worst had happened and that the race should be red flagged.



It was an instant, a brief moment as you see the bodies sliding on the asphalt.



I hate to imagine how Scott Redding and Alex de Angelis will be doing…



Information

From that moment I could not help but be concerned.

I was convinced that something really bad happened.

And so I asked again and again. I wanted to know the truth.



And before I left for the grid, they told me.

It wasn’t official but the source was credible and verified.



I said to myself “I knew it”. For once, I hated to have to be right.



I did put some music on in the motor home to concentrate on the race as it approached.



I don’t know if it was the best decision to find out before the race, but I had 40 minutes to put what happened to one side and focus.



Misano

When everything happened, the Misano sky turned sad and a tear fell…



I put my hood on and entered my team’s hospitality.



Suddenly, I was with a group of 15 Japanese who travelled from their country to meet me. I had greeted them on the previous Friday but 48 hours later, things were different.



It was the same for the people of Yamaha who accompanied them.



It has been a hard blow for them too and you cannot imagine how thankful they were for my messages on Facebook and Twitter.



I have not talked about anything else today. I have no desire; no words and I feel like it’s not worth the effort.



I love my sport, I love motorcycling, but I need days to rebuild, trying to put that thought behind.



Again, all my thoughts go with his family, friends, his team, those who knew him and those who admired him.



We have lost a fighter, a “brave of the asphalt” and a person who conveyed joy and positiveness in abundance.



We’ll miss you, Shoya. Rest in peace.
 
Pigeon said:
So if Jorge knew before going to the grid Dorna.Race control did why didn't they cancel the Motogp race in respect

.......s



Jorge's Blog Translated – A Tribute to Shoya Tomizawa

Posted by Gaelle on Tuesday, September 7, 2010 · View Comments



This blog entry was posted by Jorge Lorenzo today. It is dedicated to Shoya Tomizawa who tragically left us last weekend…

http://www.motoracer...a-tomizawa.html





The original post can be found HERE http://diariodeunpil...cado-a-ti-shoya



Shoya Tomizawa - a bright star gone too soon...



Dedicated to you, Shoya.

Today, I have no desire to write about what happened but I won't give my blog a miss.



So yes, I am not going to talk about races but only say Goodbye to a friend of us all.



He was a star, always with a smile, friendly, nice and a fighter.



When I saw the crash, I thought aloud that the worse thing had happened.



Before going to the grid, it was confirmed to me. It was not official but the source was credible.



We will miss you. Rest in peace.



Farewell to a Brave

Today it is a day when words could not express it all but I do not want to miss my appointment with you.

However, it won’t be an entertaining read….



I don’t want to talk about anything else, only Shoya, a rider admired in the paddock probably more because of the kind of person he was than his riding.

But he was a friend of everyone.



We said goodbye to a brave man with his boots on and we will never forget.



His last pole

Shoya was a person with star quality and something special that always made everyone speak well of him.

He stopped in the paddock and always smiled.

He was a current rider who suddenly came out of anonymity this season and everyone began to know how to pronounce the name of the first winner of a Moto2 race.



There were talks of progression and a bright future.



Every time we spoke, he was always cordial, polite and nice.



I was amused because of the number 48, the same number I won the first title of my career.



The last time we spoke was at the press conference after the qualifying session at Brno, less than 3 weeks ago. I was happy, as he had got the second pole of his life.



Kato

Suddenly he is gone, just like Kato in 2003.



Another death I’ve experienced from within the paddock, and exactly 17 years ago to the day, Wayne Rainey was paralysed.



The terrible thing is that we should continue, we cannot be stopped.



Life goes on and the reason why we fight for our sport is because it is safer than it used to be.

But in our minds, there will always be that moment, that terrifying exit of the corner where a fatal error occurred.



It was about 12:30 pm and I was in the motor home watching a group of riders chasing Toni Elias.

I was watching while warming up and suddenly I thought that the worst had happened and that the race should be red flagged.



It was an instant, a brief moment as you see the bodies sliding on the asphalt.



I hate to imagine how Scott Redding and Alex de Angelis will be doing…



Information

From that moment I could not help but be concerned.

I was convinced that something really bad happened.

And so I asked again and again. I wanted to know the truth.



And before I left for the grid, they told me.

It wasn’t official but the source was credible and verified.



I said to myself “I knew it”. For once, I hated to have to be right.



I did put some music on in the motor home to concentrate on the race as it approached.



I don’t know if it was the best decision to find out before the race, but I had 40 minutes to put what happened to one side and focus.



Misano

When everything happened, the Misano sky turned sad and a tear fell…



I put my hood on and entered my team’s hospitality.



Suddenly, I was with a group of 15 Japanese who travelled from their country to meet me. I had greeted them on the previous Friday but 48 hours later, things were different.



It was the same for the people of Yamaha who accompanied them.



It has been a hard blow for them too and you cannot imagine how thankful they were for my messages on Facebook and Twitter.



I have not talked about anything else today. I have no desire; no words and I feel like it’s not worth the effort.



I love my sport, I love motorcycling, but I need days to rebuild, trying to put that thought behind.



Again, all my thoughts go with his family, friends, his team, those who knew him and those who admired him.



We have lost a fighter, a “brave of the asphalt” and a person who conveyed joy and positiveness in abundance.



We’ll miss you, Shoya. Rest in peace.
Click to expand...

Wow, that will certainly bring a tear to your eye. Jorge just went up a few notches on my fan meter. Before, i thought of him as only a self centered, self promoting, arrogant little prick who i respected for his talent to ride a motorcycle. This shows a different side of Jorge that we are not allowed to see, damn shame it took something like this to bring it out.
 

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