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Prosecutor considers action over Tomizawa death

Pigeon said:
IT'S NEEDED THERE WAS SO MUCH WRONG WITH SUNDAY'S RACE CONTROL





Prosecutor considers action over Tomizawa death

The prosecutor of Rimini has reportedly launched an investigation into the death of Shoya Tomizawa following the Moto2 Grand Prix at Misano.



According to the Italian ANSA news agency, Paolo Giovagnoli will begin an inquest into the 19-year-old's tragic death in a move that could also see criminal charges being brought.



Tomizawa crashed on lap 12 of the race into the path of Alex de Angelis and Scott Redding, but the race was not stopped as track marshals swiftly stretchered him off the circuit.



However, Tomizawa was then accidentally dropped by a marshal when they stumbled whilst carrying through the gravel.



With an impending autopsy set to reveal exactly what contributed to his death, ANSA says Giovagnoli is considering bringing charges to individuals that are yet to be identified.



The news comes after MotoGP officials defended the decision not to stop the race to allow Tomizawa to receive treatment at the track, claiming they were better equipped to deal with his serious injuries behind the scenes.







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I think there should be an automatic enquiry as standard when it results in a death. If only to learn from it.

Did you see the marshalls throw Scott Redding on the stretcher?, he wasnt getting up at the time and could have easily had a back or neck injury. Julian Ryder commented on it a couple of times.
 
I dont think that anyone should be prosecuted, especially not the marshals. I believe Tomi died instantly, and if what someone just posted saying that he wasnt breathing at the scene (hence the reason he was moved so quickly) is true, that just confirms my suspicions. Riders are not pronounced dead at the circuit. Politics.



If anyone is to be punished it is Paul Butler. The race should have been stopped.





I'm not really criticizing the marshals for how they attended to Tomi (its not they guy's fault that he stumbled, my earlier shock was because i didnt know that it had happened), if he was not breathing then taking him away quickly to be resuscitated is pretty high on the priority list, but what i AM criticizing them for is how Scott was dealt with, he was clearly breathing and not in any immediate danger (apart from other riders still racing and going at RACING SPEEDS) so he should have been properly checked out before being moved.
 
SprogTheDog said:
I think there should be an automatic enquiry as standard when it results in a death. If only to learn from it.

Did you see the marshalls throw Scott Redding on the stretcher?, he wasnt getting up at the time and could have easily had a back or neck injury. Julian Ryder commented on it a couple of times.
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Agree, but not from some " I will get my 15 minutes of fame prosecutor" An internal investigation to study procedure would be welcome. Knee jerk reactions like firing race control would appear as an admission of guilt that would invite litigation, and .... like this can destroy a sport, especially racing.We have already seen what rules and regulations in the name of safety has done to this sport. Does Butler need to be fired, i dont know enough about procedure to make that call. I do know that he has a boss, and was more than likely acting in the manner that he has been instructed .
 
povol said:
Agree, but not from some " I will get my 15 minutes of fame prosecutor" An internal investigation to study procedure would be welcome. Knee jerk reactions like firing race control would appear as an admission of guilt that would invite litigation, and .... like this can destroy a sport, especially racing.We have already seen what rules and regulations in the name of safety has done to this sport. Does Butler need to be fired, i dont know enough about procedure to make that call. I do know that he has a boss, and was more than likely acting in the manner that he has been instructed .
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I agree with the highlighted part.

As for Butler i dont think sacking him is in any way a "knee jerk" reaction. The man has proved several times he is incompetent, nearly everybody with some savvy here could see the race should have been red flagged for many reasons. Yet Butler "again" failed to react. Quite ironic you call calls for his sacking "knee jerk" after all the knee jerk reactions that gimp has made in his career. I really do have no confidance in him and after sunday i doubt many of the paddock do. Just dont expect them to state that in public, not if they want to carry on with there racing careers. I wouldn't worry pov, im sure all the good ol boys will stick together and nothing will change.
 
BarryMachine said:
With the idiotic stuff thats floating around, sounds like a good thing if it happens.
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After all you have posted in other threads? JesuS, make your mind up!!
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The race should have been stopped and the rider treated where he fell. Thats just common sense. Nobody would have dropped a stretcher then would they?
 
jesus, some people get irritable on an internet forum. obviously, the rider goes into the race fully knowing the danger of the sport he is participating in. duh. the marshall did not cause the crash, however DROPPING the rider while dragging him off the track was just plain stupid. care should be taken to make sure mistakes like this do not happen.

as with mostly all deaths, there's going to be enquiry into it. if there is sufficient evidence to prosecute then obviously theres stuff we dont know.
 
Mick.. Rossi.. 46 No1... :-) said:
The race should have been stopped and the rider treated where he fell. Thats just common sense. Nobody would have dropped a stretcher then would they?
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Since the decision to move Shoya was made by legitimate, licensed emergency DOCTORS who were immediately on-the-scene (according to Dr. Claudio Macchiagodena) the issue, in my mind, is whether you choose to believe that it was quicker to stretcher Shoya to the respirator in the ambulance OR to drive the ambulance/respirator to the scene... I really don't see how anyone here (save MichaelM or GatorDuc - they are our resident MDs, no?) can question their decision to move Shoya - I fully believe that in the heat of the moment the doctors made their decision based on their years of experience and their dedication to the hypocratic oath and not based on some theoretical imperative to "let the race go on"... JMHO.
 
Its an investigation to make sure good proceedures wer followed. I dont think or hope the intent is to get somebody in trouble but rather to look more closely at a tragic situation and perhaps find flaws to be improved ideally. Sure some lawyers will line up for payday but an investigation is warranted. Now if they charge somebody criminally it would be outragous. Even Butler, though a bad call, should not be charged. Honestly getting him to respirator was done asap regardless of race status. That is to say even if they would hav thrown red flag, the call was to get him to respirator asap, and they did this. The red flag would hav only perhaps lowered probability further chaos. The red or not isnt really the issue to be the focus as it has become.
 
now if Shoya immediately after the accident as a Doc seems to have said he was not Breathing (so at that time is clinically dead ?)

that's why they moved him off the track



now what they did by moving Shoya could contravene Italian law as it warrants an immediate cancellation of the event

so its sealed off for examination



Under Italian law, a death within the confines of the circuit would have required the cancellation of the entire race meeting.



The relevant Italian legislation stipulates that when a death takes place during a sporting event, it should be immediately halted and the area sealed off for examination.



if you look around the net Google etc. you see lots of stuff like this^^^^^



AT LEAST As the news of Shoya's passing was announced during the motogp race that warranted the Event to be cancelled immediately so as to seal the crash area



this could have a dire effect on motogp and racing especially in italy again ?



i just dont know
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i think people are going to have a lot to answer too over Sundays events
 
This is exactly what I was worried about, particularly since there seems to be no law but public opinion in Italy (just my observation).



There is no need for an investigation in anyway shape or form b/c criminal negligence doesn't apply to people who are running to transport a trauma patient. An investigation is only necessary if you think they did it on purpose.
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DeAngelis and Redding hit him at 140mph with a motorcycle, but Remni is going to investigate the cornerworkers who dropped Tomizawa from about 1 foot off the ground? Does anyone in the freakin' developed world want healthcare!!!! If we keep this up no one is going to go into medicine, and the people who do practice medicine are going to shut their eyes and run for their lives every time they see an accident.



Society cannot hold these circus investigations and trials. They are not innocuous ways to relieve stress, they are an unnecessary and intolerable risk for people who are simply attempting to help someone else. Good Samaritan laws (if they have such a concept in Italy) should extend to all first responders. If it is a crime to forget what you have been taught, then why learn how to first respond at all?
 
Pigeon said:
Under Italian law, a death within the confines of the circuit would have required the cancellation of the entire race meeting.



The relevant Italian legislation stipulates that when a death takes place during a sporting event, it should be immediately halted and the area sealed off for examination.
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Is that from the Death of Ayrton Senna article on wikipedia? I wouldn't put much stock in that.
 
Mick D said:
Since the decision to move Shoya was made by legitimate, licensed emergency DOCTORS who were immediately on-the-scene (according to Dr. Claudio Macchiagodena) the issue, in my mind, is whether you choose to believe that it was quicker to stretcher Shoya to the respirator in the ambulance OR to drive the ambulance/respirator to the scene... I really don't see how anyone here (save MichaelM or GatorDuc - they are our resident MDs, no?) can question their decision to move Shoya - I fully believe that in the heat of the moment the doctors made their decision based on their years of experience and their dedication to the hypocratic oath and not based on some theoretical imperative to "let the race go on"... JMHO.
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The decision was hurried due to no red flag imo. As ive posted, a moto2 lap is around 1 min 40 here. By the time the riders crashed and the doctors got to them, how much time out of that 1 min 40 was left to examine, decide and move the rider before the rest of the field came back past ? There is no way such an important decision could be made in so little time. Butler has bred a "battle field medic" culture, Rush in grab the casualty and get our quick.
 
if they had RED FLAGGED the moto2 race this may have given them time (lets say 30mins to a restart) for officials Doctors to get there act together and if the news about Shoya was then know to be as bad as it was the whole thing could have been cancelled.



but for Dorna Motogp Race control to do nothing not red flag it

while allowing staff to move ( sorry for not using better words ) A Dead
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rider off the track is going to be a major boo boo

Geez
 
Goatboy said:
Is that from the Death of Ayrton Senna article on wikipedia? I wouldn't put much stock in that.
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no cant find it now.

one of the major things it seems after an major accident in italy is what happens immediately after the incident what happened then

this is what they look at
 
Louise. said:
jesus, some people get irritable on an internet forum. obviously, the rider goes into the race fully knowing the danger of the sport he is participating in. duh. the marshall did not cause the crash, however DROPPING the rider while dragging him off the track was just plain stupid. care should be taken to make sure mistakes like this do not happen.

as with mostly all deaths, there's going to be enquiry into it. if there is sufficient evidence to prosecute then obviously theres stuff we dont know.
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Hi Lousy.
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Good to see u back on forum.
 
The red flag should have been out the moment the race directors saw on their screens that there was a motionless body on the track. That would have been like, 20-30 seconds after the crash. RED FLAG.

You do not need to "wait and see" to red flag the race in those circumstances. In those circumstances it is the very first action to take.

The corner and medical staff were put under undue pressure by the fact that the race went on.



This said, I believe Tomizawa would never had survived the kind of impacts he suffered. He must have died on the spot.

But this should be a good occasion to learn. For the future.
 
chopperman said:
Im not sure this is the Louise your thinking of compa. I remember that Louise making 100 posts in a day and was a member before 08. Unless she started a new account of course.
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Yup. I think you're right.



Oh well, at least we have another Louise.





Question for you Chops, do you think Butlers call is criminal? (For the record, I don't. Was it a bad call, yeah).
 
Jumkie said:
Yup. I think you're right.



Oh well, at least we have another Louise.





Question for you Chops, do you think Butlers call is criminal? (For the record, I don't. Was it a bad call, yeah).
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On the face of it no i dont think Butler has comited a criminal offence. BUT If it were proved that Butler had thought this could have been a fatality either there on the spot or shortly after and did not red flag for fear of the whole event being canceled under Italian law then yes. in all honesty though i can see how he could of known but maybe he suspected ?? We will never know.
 

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