J4rn0
Fixed It. Ducati always thought the bike was great as soon as Stoner through a leg over it.
I think Stoner leaving was more a result of the lack of respect and remuneration he was receiving from Marlboro for his effort, while they threw huge sums at everyone else who thought they could ride it.
Fixed It. Ducati always thought the bike was great as soon as Stoner through a leg over it.
I think Stoner leaving was more a result of the lack of respect and remuneration he was receiving from Marlboro for his effort, while they threw huge sums at everyone else who thought they could ride it.
Goatboy
Those Bridgestone tyres were obviously even more high tech than was previously thought, if they could recognise when stoner was riding and work for him but not for loris capirossi, marco melandri et al.
Those Bridgestone tyres were obviously even more high tech than was previously thought, if they could recognise when stoner was riding and work for him but not for loris capirossi, marco melandri et al.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
33 Coupe
Not really, because they began modifying the bike "to make it more rideable for riders other than Stoner", while Stoner was still there. They were aware there was some problem, after Capirossi, Melandri and Hayden, three world champions, failed on it. I agree Stoner was pissed off when they offered more money to Lorenzo, but at that point the relation was already falling apart.
Not really, because they began modifying the bike "to make it more rideable for riders other than Stoner", while Stoner was still there. They were aware there was some problem, after Capirossi, Melandri and Hayden, three world champions, failed on it. I agree Stoner was pissed off when they offered more money to Lorenzo, but at that point the relation was already falling apart.
J4rn0
You are probably a lot closer to ducati than anyone else on here, but there is absolutely no doubt from contemporary reports that they were endeavouring to produce a more generally suitable bike. Unfortunately for all parties this was a much more difficult task than anyone supposed, reminiscent of the punch line of the old Irish joke, when the country Irishman after being asked for directions says "well in the first place I wouldn't start from here". I think jorge showed wisdom, because while he may well be a better all round rider than stoner I don't think the bike would have suited him either, and I don't think he was any more likely than stoner, rossi or any one else to "fix" the 2010 bike which wasn't really competitive even for stoner.
Stoner has directly said he was disappointed by the attitude of both marlboro and general ducati management to his 2009 illness, and I agree had decided to leave, likely before the end of 2009.
You are probably a lot closer to ducati than anyone else on here, but there is absolutely no doubt from contemporary reports that they were endeavouring to produce a more generally suitable bike. Unfortunately for all parties this was a much more difficult task than anyone supposed, reminiscent of the punch line of the old Irish joke, when the country Irishman after being asked for directions says "well in the first place I wouldn't start from here". I think jorge showed wisdom, because while he may well be a better all round rider than stoner I don't think the bike would have suited him either, and I don't think he was any more likely than stoner, rossi or any one else to "fix" the 2010 bike which wasn't really competitive even for stoner.
Stoner has directly said he was disappointed by the attitude of both marlboro and general ducati management to his 2009 illness, and I agree had decided to leave, likely before the end of 2009.
Joined Oct 2012
3K Posts | 725+
Crab Key
michaelm
While the idea that Ducati were trying to make the bike more 'suitable' may have been true or just a fob-off (after all, what indications were there that much was being done in this direction?), the reason I dislike the theme is due to it being used (at the time) as an excuse for VS's dire performance on the bike.
The 2010 bike won races. Was the 2011 bike incapable of winning races? That, to me, decides whether it was competitive.
While the idea that Ducati were trying to make the bike more 'suitable' may have been true or just a fob-off (after all, what indications were there that much was being done in this direction?), the reason I dislike the theme is due to it being used (at the time) as an excuse for VS's dire performance on the bike.
The 2010 bike won races. Was the 2011 bike incapable of winning races? That, to me, decides whether it was competitive.
Dr No
Something certainly changed for the worse between 2009 and 2010, stoner crashed the thing 5 times in 2010 after having no apparent problems with the stability of the 2009 bike. He could still ride it fast enough to win the odd race, but I don't think anyone can claim he and the bike were competitive for the 2010 championship. He also made repeated statements about the 2010 bike letting go for no apparent reason, after consistently maintaining the 2009 bike was fine and the problem in that year was his health.
Something certainly changed for the worse between 2009 and 2010, stoner crashed the thing 5 times in 2010 after having no apparent problems with the stability of the 2009 bike. He could still ride it fast enough to win the odd race, but I don't think anyone can claim he and the bike were competitive for the 2010 championship. He also made repeated statements about the 2010 bike letting go for no apparent reason, after consistently maintaining the 2009 bike was fine and the problem in that year was his health.
Joined Jul 2008
2K Posts | 14+
Tweed Valley Australia
michaelm
I was of the opinion that as everyone else got faster on the Yamaha and Honda the Ducati had to be pushed harder and harder to keep it. Far be it for me to say something in defence of Rossi, but by the time he arrived that gap was insurmountable no matter what, the only chance he had was rain and we all know what happened there.
I still think Rossi could have pushed it up more but at his age and with so many wins already under his belt there was little purpose in volunteering for one way missions on the bike. He just rode around for two years at contract pace, whilst it never hurt his bank balance the bike was too peculiar for anyone other Casey to push hard, I think that a lot of riders still on it (e.h. Haystack) try to find the 95% mark and not bin it, the result is not their best, just a risk managed equation.
I was of the opinion that as everyone else got faster on the Yamaha and Honda the Ducati had to be pushed harder and harder to keep it. Far be it for me to say something in defence of Rossi, but by the time he arrived that gap was insurmountable no matter what, the only chance he had was rain and we all know what happened there.
I still think Rossi could have pushed it up more but at his age and with so many wins already under his belt there was little purpose in volunteering for one way missions on the bike. He just rode around for two years at contract pace, whilst it never hurt his bank balance the bike was too peculiar for anyone other Casey to push hard, I think that a lot of riders still on it (e.h. Haystack) try to find the 95% mark and not bin it, the result is not their best, just a risk managed equation.
Dr No
I respect both yours and andy's opinions, but this is not how I see it, perhaps a reflection of my inner fanboy or whatever.
They, or marlboro anyway, decided stoner was flaky in 2009, and even leaving this aside his absence made it obvious to ducati that they were entirely dependent on stoner to be competitive with their current design, perhaps ignoring that they were only competitive in the first place because of him. Maybe the tyres were changing and that was a significant contributor to the problem, but this was not raised by stoner, ducati or anyone else in 2010 as far as I recall.
They made a decison to make the bike "more generally rideable" rather than suited to stoner alone, and changed by their own account some fundamental things, including the screamer engine but also the front-rear balance, in the hope of suiting valentino, jorge lorenzo or whomever. As I have said, I don't think you can get to a yamaha from where they started, and if you could valentino and jb would have managed it.
I respect both yours and andy's opinions, but this is not how I see it, perhaps a reflection of my inner fanboy or whatever.
They, or marlboro anyway, decided stoner was flaky in 2009, and even leaving this aside his absence made it obvious to ducati that they were entirely dependent on stoner to be competitive with their current design, perhaps ignoring that they were only competitive in the first place because of him. Maybe the tyres were changing and that was a significant contributor to the problem, but this was not raised by stoner, ducati or anyone else in 2010 as far as I recall.
They made a decison to make the bike "more generally rideable" rather than suited to stoner alone, and changed by their own account some fundamental things, including the screamer engine but also the front-rear balance, in the hope of suiting valentino, jorge lorenzo or whomever. As I have said, I don't think you can get to a yamaha from where they started, and if you could valentino and jb would have managed it.
Ducati made 3 big mistakes:
1. Trying to make the bike respond like a Jap bike so riders who were used to the way a Jap bike responds could ride it.
2. Going to a Big Bang engine. This threw too much traction to the rear of the bike which unbalanced it with the front. I suggest going back to screamer would fix it immediately.
3. Hiring Rossi and JB who were too arrogant to change.
1. Trying to make the bike respond like a Jap bike so riders who were used to the way a Jap bike responds could ride it.
2. Going to a Big Bang engine. This threw too much traction to the rear of the bike which unbalanced it with the front. I suggest going back to screamer would fix it immediately.
3. Hiring Rossi and JB who were too arrogant to change.
If Marquez is as good as it appears, do you think he could ride it? I have a feeling that he would find a way to win on it.
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