MotoGP is not World Superbikes

MotoGP has decided to go to a 1000cc limit from 2012. Sorry, have I missed something here?

Let's face it - Friday's announcement was not much of a surprise. Something had to be done to bring the riders more together on track - and when you've got guys like Valentino Rossi saying that the 800s were "the biggest mistake in 15 years of MotoGP", something has to give.

And there have been plenty of indicators that the change was coming. FIM president Vito Ippolito has hinted strongly that changes are needed, and when a top-level bloke like Vito does things like that it is usually for a good reason.

But the most puzzling thing about the announcement is a couple of detail points: a limit of four cylinders and a maximum cylinder bore measurement of 81mm.

Now, if you talk about bits of metal in terms of bore, stroke etc it is usually more dull than a meeting of the Open University appreciation society - but this bore information could be at the centre of the biggest legal scrap in racing history.

I say 'usually' because the 81mm bore announcement is, on this occasion, very interesting indeed: it means the current Honda Fireblade, Yamaha R1 and BMW S1000RR are all eligible. Furthermore, there is no use of the word 'protoype' in the Dorna announcement so far.

So the prospect of 1000cc, four-cylinder, 81mm bore, non-prototype bikes racing in a global series... where have we heard that before?

Oh yes, of course - World Superbikes.

Now I should declare here that I am, in every sense, a racing anorak. I am as happy getting tyres for my bike as I am watching a 125cc lapping alone during a test day; I am as happy watching a 10-bike elbow-bashing spectacle in WSB as I am watching Rossi 20 seconds out in the lead.

To me, if a bike is going well and being ridden by a guy who knows what he's doing, then that is fascinating and thoroughly enjoyable to see; but this idea has left me cold.

And the 1000cc change in MotoGP surely isn't going to pass without some legal scrap with WSB.

WSB boss Paolo Flammini is a man who has taken an idea and crafted it into a brilliant championship. I've known Mr F for a long time: he's a very nice and solid chap who's reaping the rewards of clever thinking and very hard work. If there's anything that looks like it might hurt WSB, he will meet it head-on.

So I fully expect MotoGP's announcement to be met with a strong defensive stance from Mr F and the WSB scene.

For me, all this idea-chasing for a 1000cc, 81mm bore concept by MotoGP smacks of headless-chicken syndrome.

The 500s had to go because the 990s were going to be the best thing ever and help save polar bears in the Arctic; then the 990s had to go because they were too expensive and too powerful. Now the 800s have to go because they corner too fast and they're too expensive.

And let's not start on the 600cc Moto2 incarnation instead of those thoroughbred 250s...

The upshot is the racing world is going to get two 1000cc four-stroke championships AND two 600cc four-stroke championships - and only one of those set-ups is coming along several years after the other.

MotoGP is meant to be different. WSB should be all about bruising scraps, fairing-bashing and jump-out-of-your-seat thrills and spills. MotoGP should be about a handful of guys racing the absolute pinnacle of prototype engineering as fast as it is possible to imagine.

MotoGP should not be about aping a formula from another class. Let the engineers off the leash and let's get back to top-flight exotica, and all without the geeky bloke at the back of the garage with his laptop interrupting things with complex rider aids and traction programmes.
I expected more from Dorna when it came to the future of the sport I love.

Comment on this article

edit: some good replys on there ppl.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pigeon @ Dec 14 2009, 11:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>MotoGP has decided to go to a 1000cc limit from 2012. Sorry, have I missed something here?

Let's face it - Friday's announcement was not much of a surprise. Something had to be done to bring the riders more together on track - and when you've got guys like Valentino Rossi saying that the 800s were "the biggest mistake in 15 years of MotoGP", something has to give.

And there have been plenty of indicators that the change was coming. FIM president Vito Ippolito has hinted strongly that changes are needed, and when a top-level bloke like Vito does things like that it is usually for a good reason.

But the most puzzling thing about the announcement is a couple of detail points: a limit of four cylinders and a maximum cylinder bore measurement of 81mm.

Now, if you talk about bits of metal in terms of bore, stroke etc it is usually more dull than a meeting of the Open University appreciation society - but this bore information could be at the centre of the biggest legal scrap in racing history.

I say 'usually' because the 81mm bore announcement is, on this occasion, very interesting indeed: it means the current Honda Fireblade, Yamaha R1 and BMW S1000RR are all eligible. Furthermore, there is no use of the word 'protoype' in the Dorna announcement so far.

So the prospect of 1000cc, four-cylinder, 81mm bore, non-prototype bikes racing in a global series... where have we heard that before?

Oh yes, of course - World Superbikes.

Now I should declare here that I am, in every sense, a racing anorak. I am as happy getting tyres for my bike as I am watching a 125cc lapping alone during a test day; I am as happy watching a 10-bike elbow-bashing spectacle in WSB as I am watching Rossi 20 seconds out in the lead.
To me, if a bike is going well and being ridden by a guy who knows what he's doing, then that is fascinating and thoroughly enjoyable to see; but this idea has left me cold.

And the 1000cc change in MotoGP surely isn't going to pass without some legal scrap with WSB.

WSB boss Paolo Flammini is a man who has taken an idea and crafted it into a brilliant championship. I've known Mr F for a long time: he's a very nice and solid chap who's reaping the rewards of clever thinking and very hard work. If there's anything that looks like it might hurt WSB, he will meet it head-on.

So I fully expect MotoGP's announcement to be met with a strong defensive stance from Mr F and the WSB scene.

For me, all this idea-chasing for a 1000cc, 81mm bore concept by MotoGP smacks of headless-chicken syndrome.

The 500s had to go because the 990s were going to be the best thing ever and help save polar bears in the Arctic; then the 990s had to go because they were too expensive and too powerful. Now the 800s have to go because they corner too fast and they're too expensive.

And let's not start on the 600cc Moto2 incarnation instead of those thoroughbred 250s...

The upshot is the racing world is going to get two 1000cc four-stroke championships AND two 600cc four-stroke championships - and only one of those set-ups is coming along several years after the other.

MotoGP is meant to be different. WSB should be all about bruising scraps, fairing-bashing and jump-out-of-your-seat thrills and spills. MotoGP should be about a handful of guys racing the absolute pinnacle of prototype engineering as fast as it is possible to imagine.

MotoGP should not be about aping a formula from another class. Let the engineers off the leash and let's get back to top-flight exotica, and all without the geeky bloke at the back of the garage with his laptop interrupting things with complex rider aids and traction programmes.
I expected more from Dorna when it came to the future of the sport I love.

Comment on this article

edit: some good replys on there ppl.
He couldnt be more right. I have always said that Protype racing was about getting it right, and if the result was rider x winning by 20-30 seconds,so be it. In fact, i feel that way about all racing.If a guy is kicking your ... within the rule structure of the series,STFU and get busy getting better. The problem is the fan,, that really dont get what racing is all about . They ..... and moan that so and so wins to much and the racing is boring blah blah. We need a new rules package to make things closer blah blah. The majority of them feel like they need to be entertained, instead of enjoying the sport for what it is supposed to be, an exibition of SPEED and riding ability. Not enough gear heads to make the world go round

povol totally agree. One other thing and I can't remember who said it, I think ezy said it about the 600's that the motor doesn't make for a prototype machine. ........ on that I say.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Dec 14 2009, 10:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He couldnt be more right. I have always said that Protype racing was about getting it right, and if the result was rider x winning by 20-30 seconds,so be it. In fact, i feel that way about all racing.If a guy is kicking your ... within the rule structure of the series,STFU and get busy getting better. The problem is the fan,, that really dont get what racing is all about . They ..... and moan that so and so wins to much and the racing is boring blah blah. We need a new rules package to make things closer blah blah. The majority of them feel like they need to be entertained, instead of enjoying the sport for what it is supposed to be, an exibition of SPEED and riding ability. Not enough gear heads to make the world go round

Your a purist at heart which is enjoyable, but much like Obama's utopia, it isn't possible. There is too much behind the scenes politics. Are you going to tell the sattelite teams to get busy ? Are you going to tell the rookies to make thier bike like a factory. I could go on but you get the point. In reality the game is skewed to make a few people fast and the rest are always going to be the rest no matter how busy they get.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Dec 14 2009, 07:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Your a purist at heart which is enjoyable, but much like Obama's utopia, it isn't possible. There is too much behind the scenes politics. Are you going to tell the sattelite teams to get busy

? Are you going to tell the rookies to make thier bike like a factory. I could go on but you get the point. In reality the game is skewed to make a few people fast and the rest are always going to be the rest no matter how busy they get.
I never looked at the satellite teams as anything but field fillers and a place for up and comers to get experience. I have no problem with 6-8 bikes being superior to the rest. The pipe dream is thinking that 10-15 bikes will be battling in a bunch for the win. Most will agree that WSBK has the best series going right now and if you go back and look,the same players were doing their thing way ahead of the field and in most cases it was just 2 bikes,sometimes 3.Every once in a while,you will get a combo of satellite bike and rider who can compete at the front[Melandri, Gravelplow] and that is when you get the attention and a factory ride. I much prefer the system of working your way up to a factory ride, over a system where performance is dumbed down to a commom denominator.

Why wait 'till 2012

If I were running superbikes right now I would

1. Spec all the bikes up a bit - a little faster helps makes motogp irrelevant

2. Introduce a third class. I would run a 600cc class, a 750cc class (I love the GSXR750 and give kudos to Suzuki for its continuation). Of course a 1000cc class with the 1200 v twins and maybe a triple capacity allowance of 1100 (Triumph seems keen to jump back in) - You get all the manufacturers and big fields

3. Still run two SBK races per round and one each of the others

You would then have all of what motogp has, plus more racing, and times close enough to really make motogp an expensive and pointless exercise.


Really, motogp has to be the pinnacle, prototypes with as few restrictions as possible otherwise it will have nothing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Dec 15 2009, 07:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You would then have all of what motogp has, plus more racing, and times close enough to really make motogp an expensive and pointless exercise.


Really, motogp has to be the pinnacle, prototypes with as few restrictions as possible otherwise it will have nothing.
Agree.

Actually, i think it already is a better product right now, that's why Dorna has hijacked Wsbk's platform.

There use to be a time when people described "Formula One" as "unlimited" (same went for GP). Its the idea that has been lost more and more (really completely gone now). Its a spec series, thing is only the rich teams can get the most out of the spec. At least Nascar, with its super spec produces close racing, eh.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Dec 16 2009, 04:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If I were running superbikes right now I would

1. Spec all the bikes up a bit - a little faster helps makes motogp irrelevant

2. Introduce a third class. I would run a 600cc class, a 750cc class (I love the GSXR750 and give kudos to Suzuki for its continuation). Of course a 1000cc class with the 1200 v twins and maybe a triple capacity allowance of 1100 (Triumph seems keen to jump back in) - You get all the manufacturers and big fields

3. Still run two SBK races per round and one each of the others

You would then have all of what motogp has, plus more racing, and times close enough to really make motogp an expensive and pointless exercise.


Really, motogp has to be the pinnacle, prototypes with as few restrictions as possible otherwise it will have nothing.

Problem with your suggestions is that they would need FIM's blessing. The most likely of your suggestions would be a 750/900 class but as a replacement of today's 1000/1200.

Besides you wont get big fields in second rate 1200 and 750 classes unless it was Stock classes.
They have 600 and 1000cc Super Stock already and that works just fine.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Dec 16 2009, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Agree.

Actually, i think it already is a better product right now, that's why Dorna has hijacked Wsbk's platform.

There use to be a time when people described "Formula One" as "unlimited" (same went for GP). Its the idea that has been lost more and more (really completely gone now). Its a spec series, thing is only the rich teams can get the most out of the spec. At least Nascar, with its super spec produces close racing, eh.

When was that Jumkie? When were these sports actually unlimited?
I think it was in the 40's or 50's that they started splitting up in classes based on displacement for car racing (or was it in the 30's?).
As we know things has gotten a bit more complicated since then and therefore more rules. As as such it can easily be argued that these series has been spec series ever since.

MotoGP is not WSBK? Not anymore.

The only way MotoGP can realistically differentiate itself from WSBK is to bring back the two stroke motor. Of course, there are commercial questions that make that difficult, but it's actually the only real feasible solution. Give us 600cc 2 Strokes!

The guys running the show at WSBK have done a seriously good job. While motogp has been lapping up the manufacture support and big money sponsorship deals it has been getting more and more exclusive and un-obtainable to normal raceteams. Now they have gone too far they have to bring the series back closer to where it used to be. Meanwhile though Supperbike racing has been straying away from its own roots, getting faster and more heavily modified to the point that they are making life difficult for the Motogp rulemakers. I'm still not convinced they are gonna come out on top in the long run but what they've done so far is pretty impressive.

YES I AGREE WITH THE FIRST POINT Motogp is not world superbikes -

can we have the rest in english or dumb ... speak please

Ok here's where i was at with it all please remember though i'm not the type that remembers stats of each and every rider, the team managers nameand date of birth, the bikes they are riding and what suspension hydralic system they are using (i've only just caught up with the importance the tyre has made to a bike).

Wait that last statement is bound to be read wrong and had the piss took out of. By that i meant and shoot me if i get it the wrong way round. Last year the tyre was made to fit the bike which meant there wasn't much fiddling with the bike. This year its one tyre make and restrictions on the hard soft thing, the bike now has to fit the tyre but less track time to fiddle with the bike. Someone please tell me i got that right at least.

Neither do i research into what Rossi had for breakfast on the days he won the long battles or wonder if the reason Stoner was miserable middle of this year was because his misses refused to give him one till he smiled and stopped windging. And neither do i check out all the body stats of the grid girls

Whenever i try to explain to people who know nowt about bikes what the difference is i always say World superbikes is the road bike you see Burt down the road riding on, except the one Burt rides is a replica of the factory race bike. Motogp bikes have a smaller engine and are built to race ....... fast and be able to race smoothly and not muscle round a track smoothly. There are the rich fast prototypes cousins of the wsb bikes. The second factory team in the race generally get the cast off of the main teams bike and thats why they hardly ever finish infront of the main team of that manufactor 125 and 250 are glorified hairdryers rode by young lads and the odd woman who are mad enough to race round a wet track at 150mph risking life and limb on such thin small things.

What the .... am i meant to say now?? what with motogp2 and now motogp going up to an engine that isn't quite as big as my car but can go a darn sight faster than me even down hill and a wind behind.

Someone help before someone gets the gormless girlie answer of "i don't know what the difference is i just fancy the men in the leathers"

Classic Linda made my day.

Always here to assit (that is when i'm skiving from work) and make everyones day
Now answer the god damn question

If you can find it in there

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This is a very good news, but i hoped they begin with that from 2011.

i hope Rossi stays that long in Motogp.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Dec 14 2009, 01:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He couldnt be more right. I have always said that Protype racing was about getting it right, and if the result was rider x winning by 20-30 seconds,so be it. In fact, i feel that way about all racing.If a guy is kicking your ... within the rule structure of the series,STFU and get busy getting better. The problem is the fan,, that really dont get what racing is all about . They ..... and moan that so and so wins to much and the racing is boring blah blah. We need a new rules package to make things closer blah blah. The majority of them feel like they need to be entertained, instead of enjoying the sport for what it is supposed to be, an exibition of SPEED and riding ability. Not enough gear heads to make the world go round

Dead on.

If satelite or privateer teams get the same gear as the factory teams (which I believe in most cases they do), is only comes down to the people - the riders, and techs, etc.
The privateer and sat teams are just not as good. Simple. (OK, a big part of it is they don't have the money to pay the best people, accepted) but don't make excuses. The teams down the bottom need to get better. They need to attract high paying sponsors that get something for their money.
What would Rossi and JB do on JT's Tech 3 bike. I am guessing exactly what they are doing on the Fiat bike.

Ok - on to the troubles of MotoGP.
Everyone go back to 2006, and wheel out the 2006 spec 990 GP bikes, and lets start from there.
Limit electronic sensors, with a spec ECU system. No back to base data logging during a race or test session. No GPS systems
Rev limit the engines.
Unlimited fuel.
No 6 engine rule.
Hotter grid girls, and more carnaval, party atmosphere at the races. Attract the fans with more than just racing. MotoGP has to attract the glamor of F1, not just the bike nuts / purists. That will bring high profile people, attract sponsors, and bring money into the sport to make it viable.
MotoGP needs private players, like McLaren, Virgin etc, and the market is there.

MotoGP needs to be faster than WSBK, and more exotic. More glamour. More prestige.
I love WSBK, but MotoCP should not even be in the same ballpark as WSBK.

No one will be trotting out technology that is 8 years old. The 990's of old couldn't lap with the present 800's. The "new" 999's will be a new machine entirely and will have to be. The chassis will have a lot more torque to deal with and increased braking force from vastly higher speeds. The factories will attempt to retain the cornering speed of the 800's if not increase it and harder compound tires will cause other problems. Nope, they'll stay mothballed. WSBK can't hang with the present 800's either and the new 999's will be faster yet. No privateer team will ever get on the podium with any kind of semi stock hot rod production engined bike in motogp. To think that they will is to misunderstand the series completely.