Marquez Signs 4 Year Contract With HRC

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warthog1 said:
Both Lorenzo and Crutchlow have on several occasions expressed a preference for the previous specification of the RC213V, which lacked the straightline speed of the current bike but was easier to ride.

But while Marquez has repeatedly stressed he agrees with their feedback, he has also made it clear he viewed the extra pace as a worthwhile trade-off.

"In some aspects, the 2018 bike's engine was somewhat easier, but the laptimes were two or three tenths slower," Marquez said

"You need to know if you want an easier bike or a faster bike. I don't care if the bike is difficult as long as it's faster.

"I'm the first one who wants to keep the power but at the same time have more traction and a smoother engine, and that's what all the Honda riders are saying. But the Honda engine has been the same since I arrived in 2013, and that's not going to change now."

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/marquez-honda-challenge-crutchlow/4559277/amp/
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But that's the only sensible attitude MM could have about the bike. This doesn't mean that he wants to be riding a bike that's difficult to handle. His priority is performance. If he couldn't extract the performance out of the bike, he would be joining the other riders in asking for more ride-ability.

The same goes for Honda. I can't blame them for not prioritizing performance if MM is able to dominate with the bike as it is. The won both constructors and riders championships with the bike as is.

The only thing we can blame MM for is being a fantastic rider. Fantastic riders will be influential within teams and quite rightfully so. It's silly to blame them for developmental directions that favour them.
 
warthog1 said:
Both Lorenzo and Crutchlow have on several occasions expressed a preference for the previous specification of the RC213V, which lacked the straightline speed of the current bike but was easier to ride.

But while Marquez has repeatedly stressed he agrees with their feedback, he has also made it clear he viewed the extra pace as a worthwhile trade-off.

"In some aspects, the 2018 bike's engine was somewhat easier, but the laptimes were two or three tenths slower," Marquez said

"You need to know if you want an easier bike or a faster bike. I don't care if the bike is difficult as long as it's faster.

"I'm the first one who wants to keep the power but at the same time have more traction and a smoother engine, and that's what all the Honda riders are saying. But the Honda engine has been the same since I arrived in 2013, and that's not going to change now."

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/marquez-honda-challenge-crutchlow/4559277/amp/
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Unsure how they can claim Lorenzo would have had a preference for an earlier RC2131V - since he never raced one - unless said opinion is based on off-season testing.
 
warthog1 said:
https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/933606/1/lorenzo-confidence-was-okay-2018-honda
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As surmised - he only rode a two year old bike in test conditions. Didn’t do race simulations or ride under race conditions. Probably never posted lap times from those tests. Kind of a meaningless statement.

It occurs, that as long as MM feels confident that he can handle the physical and mental drain of continuing to ride around the handling deficiencies of the RCV, he really has no motivation to push HRC for a more ride friendly bike: it'd be like arming his competition.
 
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'With last year's bike I was quite quick and my confidence was okay' - Jorge Lorenzo.

Jorge Lorenzo is hoping that next year's Honda can revive some of the front-end confidence he had felt during his outings on the 2018 machine.

Although injured during the final stages of his Ducati career, a sore Lorenzo made his Honda debut during last November'sValencia and Jerez tests, signing-off 2018 a competitive fourth-fastest and 0.160s from the top.
 
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Many journos saying that Honda is worried about the 2020 bike, apparently it's worse in all respects compared to the previous year's bike.

It would be ironic if Honda started a period of dud bikes now that Marquez is tied to them for 4 years...
 
Keshav said:
It's a little disingenuous to blame Marquez directly. IMHO - his part of the "blame" has to do with the way he rides around the Honda's engineering idiosyncrasies. It's like blaming Stoner for the crappy handling of the early Ducati, that nobody else could do well with. Same dynamic with the Honda.

Remember when MM loved the bike and then hated the next season iteration and begged for the previous year's chassis?

Ducati and Honda are both famous having great development riders . . . and ignoring their input. With the advent of Gigi - that has changed at Ducati. At Honda
- not so much.
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I wasnt blaming MM, i was giving him the responsibility he bears for the last few years development....Dani led development from 2006 until 2013 from what i can tell....though some input may have come from Casey it was limited given his short tenure.....once MM took lead on input the bike has become harder and harder to ride, and only he really can ride well.....but that is clearly going toward a dead end road from what we've seen in 2019 and now in testing....
If i were HRC i'd be panicking right now....
 
MigsAngel said:
I wasnt blaming MM, i was giving him the responsibility he bears for the last few years development....Dani led development from 2006 until 2013 from what i can tell....though some input may have come from Casey it was limited given his short tenure.....once MM took lead on input the bike has become harder and harder to ride, and only he really can ride well.....but that is clearly going toward a dead end road from what we've seen in 2019 and now in testing....
If i were HRC i'd be panicking right now....
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I go with the school of thought that maintains that rider that rider input informs the overall direction of the bikes development - but is far from being a iron-clad template to which engineers strictly adhere. Honda saw how brilliantly Stoner could ride around the resulting defects of Ducati’s stubborn use of proprietary design regardless of how badly said idiosyncrasies impacted the handling and hired him to gloss over the bikes deficiencies. HRC saw the same quality in Marquez. They pragmatically use riders the way Shogunates used samurai with no regard for the risk to the individual. They’re just employees there to do a job.

Japanese don’t panic. The know realistically a winning streak only lasts so long. The glory and the good PR from such a long string of victories will endow them with status and increased sales long after Marquez retires. Same reason Yamaha keeps Rossi on a leash all these years.
 
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Macca said:
Which is great for Marc of course, and whilst he's there great for Honda.

The question is what does it leave them after the 4 years is up and Marc moves on...
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It’s like he said. When the time comes to build a bike that is not Marquez centric, they will do it in an overnight fashion. They have that capability. Up until now, the tires dictated a point and shoot style would win over the course of a season. If these new tires with better edge grip change the strategy to needing corner speed, Honda will have a bike prepared for 2021 that will do just that and Marc has proven he can be any type rider the technical regulations call for. I can see maybe one year out of the next 5 that Marquez doesn’t win the title.
 
povol said:
It’s like he said. When the time comes to build a bike that is not Marquez centric, they will do it in an overnight fashion. They have that capability. Up until now, the tires dictated a point and shoot style would win over the course of a season. If these new tires with better edge grip change the strategy to needing corner speed, Honda will have a bike prepared for 2021 that will do just that and Marc has proven he can be any type rider the technical regulations call for. I can see maybe one year out of the next 5 that Marquez doesn’t win the title.
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Doesn't make any sense. Everybody looks at the RCV the way it is and says: Only Magic Marc can ride this insane bike on which all the other riders are struggling.

If it were so easy, why would Honda not presto-change-o build a bike that Cal and the others could use to bring more points to the constructor's championship?

I get why some folks believe that Honda big-money fixes everything at will, but if that were so, Repsol would have made damned sure that HRC made a bike Pedrosa could win championships on.
 
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I think the point is who is going to beat MM on the same machine?
Dani had plenty of time on the Honda but was too small imo.
https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/901850/1/impressive-how-pedrosa-handled-size-adversity
But hey they didn't make the bike suit JL overnight.
As good as he is though, it is hard to see him beating MM on the same machine.
You could argue he saw it that way too, or just they were not going to give him the same degree of input.
 
warthog1 said:
I think the point is who is going to beat MM on the same machine?
Dani had plenty of time on the Honda but was too small imo.
https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/901850/1/impressive-how-pedrosa-handled-size-adversity
But hey they didn't make the bike suit JL overnight.
As good as he is though, it is hard to see him beating MM on the same machine.
You could argue he saw it that way too, or just they were not going to give him the same degree of input.
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You're completely bypassing the import of the dialog. It's not about Marc per se. It's about whether HRC has the will or the capacity to build a rider friendly bike.

News flash! Dani is small!. :doh: That's been an a talked-to-death topic since 2006. Much was made about how HRC miniaturized the bike for 2007 because Repsol used their influence to push development of the bike to specifically to suit Pedrosa who was already insanely popular in Spain (and elsewhere) - Repsol badly wanted a Spanish MotoGp champion.

And yet despite Honda's alleged ability to magically produce a suitable bike tailored to a specific rider - they clearly weren't able to do so; which gives lie to the fan-boy belief that HRC has tailor made the current bike to suit Marquez - despite all the obvious signs of how much he (brilliantly) struggles with the bike, and it's faithless front end that's thrown him down the road countless times, much the way Stoner did with the wild and woolly Ducati.

People need to get real. It's not like fashion designers who hire high-profile celebrities to wear their clothing for publicity and marketing. HRC are not in the fashion business.

HRC and Repsol didn't hire MM so they could make him an artisanal Marquez signature motorcycle. They hired him because he was the candidate with the greatest capacity to ride around the bike's deficiencies.
 
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Keshav said:
You're completely bypassing the import of the dialog. It's not about Marc per se. It's about whether HRC has the will or the capacity to build a rider friendly bike.
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They are the most successful factory in the premier class by a significant margin. There is no question they can make a fast bike. I care little about the term "rider friendly" and less that you assert this is what the discussion is about.


Keshav said:
News flash! Dani is small!. :doh: That's been an a talked-to-death topic since 2006. Much was made about how HRC miniaturized the bike for 2007 because Repsol used their influence to push development of the bike to specifically to suit Pedrosa who was already insanely popular in Spain (and elsewhere) - Repsol badly wanted a Spanish MotoGp champion.

And yet despite Honda's alleged ability to magically produce a suitable bike tailored to a specific rider - they clearly weren't able to do so; which gives lie to the fan-boy belief that HRC has tailor made the current bike to suit Marquez - despite all the obvious signs of how much he (brilliantly) struggles with the bike, and it's faithless front end that's thrown him down the road countless times, much the way Stoner did with the wild and woolly Ducati.
Click to expand...


I was responding to this passage of your post;
Keshav said:
I get why some folks believe that Honda big-money fixes everything at will, but if that were so, Repsol would have made damned sure that HRC made a bike Pedrosa could win championships on
Click to expand...

Given the fact he has been on the same team mate at Honda to 3 premier class WCs in Hayden, Stoner and Marquez I find that a tenuous point to grasp in order to claim Honda cannot build a successful bike given his size and weight on such a machine. Again they are the most successful manufacturer in the class


Keshav said:
People need to get real. It's not like fashion designers who hire high-profile celebrities to wear their clothing for publicity and marketing. HRC are not in the fashion business.

HRC and Repsol didn't hire MM so they could make him an artisanal Marquez signature motorcycle. They hired him because he was the candidate with the greatest capacity to ride around the bike's deficiencies.
Click to expand...


Interesting way to put it. He is fast. He can do stuff on a bike others can't. Seems to enable him to win bike races. That is why he is hired by Honda and why he has just been signed to a four year contract.
 
warthog1 said:
They are the most successful factory in the premier class by a significant margin. There is no question they can make a fast bike. I care little about the term "rider friendly" and less that you assert this is what the discussion is about.


Yes - we know Honda can make a fast bike. Not news. Whether YOU care about rider friendly bikes is wholly irrelevant. We weren't discussing what does and doesn't make YOU happy. It's a question of all the other current Honda riders and how badly they are faring these last few years


I was responding to this passage of your post;

And I was responding to you trying to explain away Honda's inability to build a championship winning bike for Pedrosa, by telling us Dani is small, which while true, is rather pedantic and not an earth shattering revelation around these parts. Povol - was early on - stating in essence that HRC could make a bike that handles much better at the drop of a hat, and my rejoinder was, Pedrosa was riding it for more than a decade and never won a championship, which empirically gives lie to that statement.


Given the fact he has been on the same team mate at Honda to 3 premier class WCs in Hayden, Stoner and Marquez I find that a tenuous point to grasp in order to claim Honda cannot build a successful bike given his size and weight on such a machine. Again they are the most successful manufacturer in the class


It's not "tenous". The fact of Hayden's win, was considered by Honda to be a fluke. He was just signed on as a parts monkey for Pedrosa who Repsol was banking on to be the next world champion. Honda made it very clear that their appreciation for Hayden was strictly lip service. Clearer still in 2007 when Honda shrank the bike thinking it would better suit Pedrosa. The point is, Honda's engineers despite all the money they have behind them, weren't able to build the bike that Repsol wanted. This was well documented at the time.


Interesting way to put it. He is fast. He can do stuff on a bike others can't. Seems to enable him to win bike races. That is why he is hired by Honda and why he has just been signed to a four year contract.
Click to expand...

The facts fit. HRC brought in Stoner because he was willing to burn himself out riding around the idiosyncracies of the Ducati, figuring if he could win on that bike that handled like ..... (especially once the one-tire rule was implemented) he'd be a cinch to win on the Honda which was at the time, handling much better than the Ducati.
 
Keshav said:
Yes - we know Honda can make a fast bike. Not news. Whether YOU care about rider friendly bikes is wholly irrelevant. We weren't discussing what does and doesn't make YOU happy. It's a question of all the other current Honda riders and how badly they are faring these last few years
Click to expand...

MM explained it as I posted earlier "You need to know if you want an easier bike or a faster bike. I don't care if the bike is difficult as long as it's faster."
https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/marquez-honda-challenge-crutchlow/4559277/amp/
Again what part of the strategy is not working for Honda?
Individual and constructors title again.

Keshav said:
And I was responding to you trying to explain away Honda's inability to build a championship winning bike for Pedrosa, by telling us Dani is small, which while true, is rather pedantic and not an earth shattering revelation around these parts. Povol - was early on - stating in essence that HRC could make a bike that handles much better at the drop of a hat, and my rejoinder was, Pedrosa was riding it for more than a decade and never won a championship, which empirically gives lie to that statement.
Click to expand...
Pedrosa was there for 13 years. 3 teammates won the title whilst he was there. They won 7 titles in total. His bigger, stronger teammates were better able to handle a 280 hp m/cycle that weighs 157kg. The evidence is there. They won the titles, he didn't.

Keshav said:

The facts fit. HRC brought in Stoner because he was willing to burn himself out riding around the idiosyncracies of the Ducati, figuring if he could win on that bike that handled like ..... (especially once the one-tire rule was implemented) he'd be a cinch to win on the Honda which was at the time, handling much better than the Ducati.
Click to expand...

Agree the facts fit. Honda won the title more than half the time Pedrosa was there. Pedrosa won none.
The current no1 rider has won 6 title in 7 attempts and scored the all time points record last season. Honda and he have been very successful and they clearly see the partnership as worth extending.
 
warthog1 said:
MM explained it as I posted earlier "You need to know if you want an easier bike or a faster bike. I don't care if the bike is difficult as long as it's faster."
https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/marquez-honda-challenge-crutchlow/4559277/amp/
Again what part of the strategy is not working for Honda?
Individual and constructors title again.

The part where no other rider can do .... with the same bike. The whole discussion between myself and Povol was whether or not Honda could in fact make a bike that handles well for other riders. It was never - can they win a championship with Marquez on the team. That was never in doubt; the problem being Honda is not winning because they have the best bike. They're winning on a bike that handles like .... because they have a freakishly talented rider. And if and when he either gets too injured to ride or decides to retire, they will be caught with their pants down, because riders like Stoner or Marquez don't come along every day. Their strategy is very short-sighted. Unlike Ducati who aren't so narrowly focused on speed, but who are also proving to be much more innovative with Gigi at the helm.


Pedrosa was there for 13 years. 3 teammates won the title whilst he was there. They won 7 titles in total. His bigger, stronger teammates were better able to handle a 280 hp m/cycle that weighs 157kg. The evidence is there. They won the titles, he didn't.

Again - you muddy the water by stepping around and avoiding a rebuttal of what it is I actually was making a point about, which is the fallacy that Honda can spend their way into making a bike suitable to any rider. Pedrosa is empirical proof of that.

And for a company as big and well funded as Honda, 6 years without wins - is a lot of years.



Agree the facts fit. Honda won the title more than half the time Pedrosa was there. Pedrosa won none.
The current no1 rider has won 6 title in 7 attempts and scored the all time points record last season. Honda and he have been very successful and they clearly see the partnership as worth extending.
Click to expand...

Never said they weren't winning championships. Why you keep insisting on saying this as if I'd ever denied this is beyond me. That was never my contention.
 
Keshav said:
Never said they weren't winning championships. Why you keep insisting on saying this as if I'd ever denied this is beyond me. That was never my contention.
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Can you explain what is wrong with their current strategy to me then?
I am simply posting evidence of its' success.

For it to be successful, for them to win individual and constructors titles, they are producing what is required.
A further 4 year contract seems ample evidence both manufacturer and rider are happy with the current arrangement.

There are all sorts of holes in your argument that Dani not winning a championship is proof they can't produce a bike that wins.
Not every rider is capable of winning the open class it is only a minority who do.
Dani had plenty of opportunity but couldn't do it. 3 teammates did. Marquez did it on debut on a bike you could argue was designed with Dani's input.
If it was the Honda why did he not go to another manufacturer? If the other manufacturers considered him a title dead set why weren't they offering him a contract he couldn't refuse?

Yes Marquez is very talented, yes he can ride the bike in a manner others cant.
Honda are aware that he is not forever but clearly they want him on their bike not other's.
I would argue they are confident in their strategy and happy not to be competing against him.
When he goes or can't ride they will deal with what arrives then.
As they have done after Spencer, Gardner, Doohan, Criville, Rossi, Stoner.
They have been there before and have a history of winning despite challenges.
I am sure they are aware of the challenges they will face.
 
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As I have said I go a bit both ways on this.

Honda can come up with a new chassis in a few weeks, and have in fact actually done so in the past.

I think engines are more problematic even for them, and Ducati seem to have an advantage with power and power delivery, cf the other thread. So I don’t think they are making the bike unrideable for their riders other than MM, but rather just pushing the boundaries of their engine to give MM the power and acceleration he needs to compete, no longer with a bespoke ECU and massive softwear engineering/technical staff expenditure to tame the engine. They doubtless will come to grips with the control ECU and go back to being level or better in that regard with the other manufacturers, in the meantime they have MM signed for 4 years more during which the softwear between his ears and what is connected to it, particularly his right wrist, can bridge the gap. I really don’t think they can make the bike more generally rideable at this point in time without losing out power-wise.
 
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