Marquez Signs 4 Year Contract With HRC

Keshav · Mar 15, 2020

michaelm said:
Rossi and Lorenzo were better than Pedrosa however, and he won no more than a couple of races a season except for 2012 when Stoner got injured, Rossi was riding a Ducati and Jorge had a large points lead and rode for position in much of the second part of the season. The history of modern gp bike racing is that Honda even when there were no equalisation rules have mostly only won when they have an outstanding rider. All old arguments aside along with an upgrade in funding and a re-designed bike which likely still wasn’t as good as the Honda Rossi did actually prove that in 2004, that V5 Honda was a great bike.

Were Rossi and Lorenzo so much better? Or was it that they both had bikes that totally suited their riding style? Given Honda's history of building difficult machines, I'd say the answer is open to question. Undoubtedly Pedrosa was hampered by his size: my point is I don't think it was a question of his talent. Pedrosa had it and knew it. I think that's why he stuck it out for so long despite all the injuries. At least that's what I speculate.

Bern1 · Mar 15, 2020

Obviously the debate can rage, but it seems to me that Pedrosa was one of those riders who, though obviously talented and dedicated to the craft, seemed to win mostly when it didn't matter that much. In this respect he joins the likes of Mamola and modern day Dovi. Not taking anything away from either of those two, but the real greats (let's be honest, this means those with championships in the top class) seem to find a way to win when they need to, even if there is a rational explanation for every loss.

As Senna remarked when asked by an interviewer about the accomplishments of his teammate Prost, "the results speak for themselves."

Keshav · Mar 15, 2020

Bern1 said:
Obviously the debate can rage, but it seems to me that Pedrosa was one of those riders who, though obviously talented and dedicated to the craft, seemed to win mostly when it didn't matter that much. In this respect he joins the likes of Mamola and modern day Dovi. Not taking anything away from either of those two, but the real greats (let's be honest, this means those with championships in the top class) seem to find a way to win when they need to, even if there is a rational explanation for every loss.

As Senna remarked when asked by an interviewer about the accomplishments of his teammate Prost, "the results speak for themselves."

Doesn't matter to who?

Re: Dovi - my recollection was that when he was on the Repsol RC212V he did well, and when Pedrosa was away in Spain getting more bones plated, he magically had higher top speeds and and was very competitive. I'd like to think if friggin' HRC had honored their contractual agreement and kept him on the team he would have grown with the bike very and possibly won a championship by now. Hayden won one, and then gradually faded away, whereas Dovi actually got stronger in his later years.

Personally I find Senna's statement to be simplistic and disingenuous. Any rider knows full well luck and circumstance play into every athlete's career.

p4p1 · Mar 15, 2020

Keshav said:
Doesn't matter to who?

Re: Dovi - my recollection was that when he was on the Repsol RC212V he did well, and when Pedrosa was away in Spain getting more bones plated, he magically had higher top speeds and and was very competitive. I'd like to think if friggin' HRC had honored their contractual agreement and kept him on the team he would have grown with the bike very and possibly won a championship by now. Hayden won one, and then gradually faded away, whereas Dovi actually got stronger in his later years.

Personally I find Senna's statement to be simplistic and disingenuous. Any rider knows full well luck and circumstance play into every athlete's career.

I think the main point is that Dovi hasn’t performed when he had to at various times. IMO Dovi’s recent career is littered with races similar to Rossi’s 2006 at Valencia. We could look at PI 2017, Le Mans 2018 etc. the only race I can think of him winning when it really mattered was Sepang and Japan 2017, but they were bookended by subpar performances.

Lorenzo as an example in the 2013 and 2015 seasons won when he needed too. Marquez winning at PI in 2017 when he had to, arguably Japan 2016 when he had to etc.

Keshav · Mar 16, 2020

p4p1 said:
I think the main point is that Dovi hasn’t performed when he had to at various times. IMO Dovi’s recent career is littered with races similar to Rossi’s 2006 at Valencia. We could look at PI 2017, Le Mans 2018 etc. the only race I can think of him winning when it really mattered was Sepang and Japan 2017, but they were bookended by subpar performances.

Lorenzo as an example in the 2013 and 2015 seasons won when he needed too. Marquez winning at PI in 2017 when he had to, arguably Japan 2016 when he had to etc.

I'm 60% there with you. Maybe because I just like Dovi, I tend to speculate that the times when he would be freakin' fabulous one week, and the next week all at sea, that it was inconsistency with the Ducati which the factory were constantly pulling new toys out of the box in hopes of improving the bike. I remember Stoner having similar ups and downs - but managing to win when absolutely necessary. I certainly don't put Dovi in the same class as Stoner or Marquez, but still think if he'd been at HRC as promised he'd have stood a good chance at at least one championship year.

misfit · Mar 16, 2020

Keshav said:
Doesn't matter to who?

Re: Dovi - my recollection was that when he was on the Repsol RC212V he did well, and when Pedrosa was away in Spain getting more bones plated, he magically had higher top speeds and and was very competitive. I'd like to think if friggin' HRC had honored their contractual agreement and kept him on the team he would have grown with the bike very and possibly won a championship by now. Hayden won one, and then gradually faded away, whereas Dovi actually got stronger in his later years.

Personally I find Senna's statement to be simplistic and disingenuous. Any rider knows full well luck and circumstance play into every athlete's career.

I personally don't buy the luck argument. 'Luck' may factor in a race or so but it's hard to argue luck influencing an entire career, especially long careers as Pedrosa's and Dovi's.

Keshav · Mar 16, 2020

misfit said:
I personally don't buy the luck argument. 'Luck' may factor in a race or so but it's hard to argue luck influencing an entire career, especially long careers as Pedrosa's and Dovi's.

Well sure, not every race over the length of a long career. But there is such a thing as "The Butterfly Effect". For instance, if Lorenzo hadn't fallen and injured himself and quit Honda, Little Alex wouldn't have been lucky enough to be riding a factory Repsol bike and that has HUGE potential to affect his career for years to come. It was a matter of luck (or chance if you will) that he is Marc's kid brother, otherwise he would be riding a KTM in 2020.

It certainly was a bad bit of luck that Dovizioso got bumped from Repsol despite having a good showing on the bike and despite having the smarts and negotiating skills to get the contract. He didn't get bumped from HRC because he lacked ability.

Bern1 · Mar 16, 2020

Keshav said:
Doesn't matter to who?

Doesn’t matter as far as championship results.

Personally I find Senna's statement to be simplistic and disingenuous. Any rider knows full well luck and circumstance play into every athlete's career.

Not being a Senna fan, I found that statement to be sincere at the time, ok’ing from a guy who was the first to step up on all the dirty tricks and outright cheating in the modern era, paving the way for Schumacher.

Keshav · Mar 16, 2020

Bern1 said:
Not being a Senna fan, I found that statement to be sincere at the time, ok’ing from a guy who was the first to step up on all the dirty tricks and outright cheating in the modern era, paving the way for Schumacher.

As you pointed out. Results are often a product of tricks and cheating (or for that matter preferential treatment ie: Saturday Night Special tires etc) - which have nothing to do with the talent of the rider. Personally - I'm not a fan of the "win at any cost" mentality.

Bern1 · Mar 16, 2020

Keshav said:
As you pointed out. Results are often a product of tricks and cheating (or for that matter preferential treatment ie: Saturday Night Special tires etc) - which have nothing to do with the talent of the rider. Personally - I'm not a fan of the "win at any cost" mentality.

Nor am I a fan of winning at any cost. Tricks and mind games are one thing, and ok in my book. I draw the line at running people off the road, or even threatening to do so.

p4p1 · Mar 17, 2020

Keshav said:
I'm 60% there with you. Maybe because I just like Dovi, I tend to speculate that the times when he would be freakin' fabulous one week, and the next week all at sea, that it was inconsistency with the Ducati which the factory were constantly pulling new toys out of the box in hopes of improving the bike. I remember Stoner having similar ups and downs - but managing to win when absolutely necessary. I certainly don't put Dovi in the same class as Stoner or Marquez, but still think if he'd been at HRC as promised he'd have stood a good chance at at least one championship year.

But at times when Dovi hasn’t performed when he needed to he hasn’t been the first Ducati home.
In what year do you think Dovi could’ve won a title at HRC though? It’s fine to see he may have won a title but in what year? His best bet would’ve been 2012 or 2013 but I’m not sure he could beat Lorenzo in 2012 or Marquez and Lorenzo in 2013.

Mrpurple · Mar 17, 2020

I don't think Dovi ever really gelled with the HRC... more of a Yamaha rider.

Too bad they don't give the main riders backup bikes to the satellite teams, not that it matters given that no races this year.

misfit · Mar 18, 2020

Keshav said:
Well sure, not every race over the length of a long career. But there is such a thing as "The Butterfly Effect". For instance, if Lorenzo hadn't fallen and injured himself and quit Honda, Little Alex wouldn't have been lucky enough to be riding a factory Repsol bike and that has HUGE potential to affect his career for years to come. It was a matter of luck (or chance if you will) that he is Marc's kid brother, otherwise he would be riding a KTM in 2020.

It certainly was a bad bit of luck that Dovizioso got bumped from Repsol despite having a good showing on the bike and despite having the smarts and negotiating skills to get the contract. He didn't get bumped from HRC because he lacked ability.

Well, little Alex wouldn't have gotten the chance without winning the Moto2 championship. Yes, we do get chances in life and one could take the luck thing from who one's parents are etc. However, my point is that opportunity knocks and it's for the person who receives it to take full advantage and if successful, more opportunities will come.... the butterfly effect as you say.

Pedrosa and Dovi have had many opportunities. Enough, in fact, for me to conclude anyway, that siting 'poor luck' as the cause for the failure/success over such long careers is pushing it and making excuses.

michaelm · Mar 18, 2020

misfit said:
Well, little Alex wouldn't have gotten the chance without winning the Moto2 championship. Yes, we do get chances in life and one could take the luck thing from who one's parents are etc. However, my point is that opportunity knocks and it's for the person who receives it to take full advantage and if successful, more opportunities will come.... the butterfly effect as you say.

Pedrosa and Dovi have had many opportunities. Enough, in fact, for me to conclude anyway, that siting 'poor luck' as the cause for the failure/success over such long careers is pushing it and making excuses.

I am with you on this, Pedrosa and Dovi are imo about Mamola level which is not anything to sneer at of course but not top 10 riders in the history of the sport, which Rossi, MM, Lorenzo, and Stoner, the latter talent-wise anyway, are/were imo.

All of the aforementioned riders would have found a way to finish better than 12th with the title still in play unless they had an off or a mechanical glitch, and iirc Stoner was immediately quicker than Dani in the post season test. The misfortune was with the time they happened to be participating in the sport, I could see either beating the likes of Criville to a title.

Keshav · Mar 18, 2020

misfit said:
Well, little Alex wouldn't have gotten the chance without winning the Moto2 championship. Yes, we do get chances in life and one could take the luck thing from who one's parents are etc. However, my point is that opportunity knocks and it's for the person who receives it to take full advantage and if successful, more opportunities will come.... the butterfly effect as you say.

Pedrosa and Dovi have had many opportunities. Enough, in fact, for me to conclude anyway, that siting 'poor luck' as the cause for the failure/success over such long careers is pushing it and making excuses.

Pedrosa had great bikes but Honda just couldn't make one that would gel for him the way Yamaha did with Rossi and Lorenzo. He was just too small and there was nothing to be done.

I think Dovi being bumped from the Repsol team was unfortunate in that he had a one year window after Stoner left when he potentially could have won a championship. But he was pushed out through no fault of his own. It wasn't because he wasn't ready to take advantage of the opportunity, he'd negotiated it into his contract. That qualifies as ..... luck in anyone's book

Followers of the sport just naturally predict that MM being such a force of nature that there was no way anyone was going to seriously challenge him - especially after his impressive rookie season. And yet - there were two seasons when Dovi on the Ducati had some fantastic battles in which Marquez was just about barely staying on the bike in efforts to challenge - where in fact Dovi prevailed. Some may opine that Dovi was "more of a Yamaha guy", but I reckon if Repsol had honored their contract and kept Dovi on the Honda all these years (the way they did Pedrosa) Dovi would have grown with the bike the way he did with the difficult-to-turn Ducati, and might well have taken a championship. It's just speculation.

320Dave · Mar 24, 2020

Pedrosa had more talent than Rossi but is the size of a humming bird, this doesn't make him a worse rider, just a less successful one.

Had he been Rossi's size he would have probably won 2006, 8 & 9 but the moment the field got close Dani got bullied into the dirt, even hayden bullied him on track lmao.

No chance of beating the field consistently if you can't outbreak anyone., much less ....... Mr get out of my way here I come Rossi who had proven in 2004 & 5 he would do anything to win and would deeeeffo get away with it, not even a slap on the wrist.

warthog1 · Mar 24, 2020

320Dave said:
Pedrosa had more talent than Rossi but is the size of a humming bird, this doesn't make him a worse rider, just a less successful one.

Had he been Rossi's size he would have probably won 2006, 8 & 9 but the moment the field got close Dani got bullied into the dirt, even hayden bullied him on track lmao.

No chance of beating the field consistently if you can't outbreak anyone., much less ....... Mr get out of my way here I come Rossi who had proven in 2004 & 5 he would do anything to win and would deeeeffo get away with it, not even a slap on the wrist.

At his peak Rossi was a superb rider.
Cannot agree with Pedrosa having more talent given Rossi's record.
I do agree he was hampered by his size.
It doesn't follow that his talent was necessarily better however.

michaelm · Mar 25, 2020

warthog1 said:
At his peak Rossi was a superb rider.
Cannot agree with Pedrosa having more talent given Rossi's record.
I do agree he was hampered by his size.
It doesn't follow that his talent was necessarily better however.

Agree.

Imo he has been revealed to have feet of clay in the last 10 years of his career, but it shouldn’t be forgotten that he was actually a great rider, and ranked ahead of the likes of Doohan and the US “golden era” 500 riders by long term fans such as me and I believe Povol after the 7th premier class title in 2009. He still ranks with the aforementioned riders. In my personal opinion MM should already be ranked ahead of him, and I probably along with 320 Dave consider Casey Stoner to have had equal or better talent if not the drive/ruthlessness of most of those who have won more titles than he has.

320Dave · Mar 25, 2020

michaelm said:
Agree.

Imo he has been revealed to have feet of clay in the last 10 years of his career, but it shouldn’t be forgotten that he was actually a great rider, and ranked ahead of the likes of Doohan and the US “golden era” 500 riders by long term fans such as me and I believe Povol after the 7th premier class title in 2009. He still ranks with the aforementioned riders. In my personal opinion MM should already be ranked ahead of him, and I probably along with 320 Dave consider Casey Stoner to have had equal or better talent if not the drive/ruthlessness of most of those who have won more titles than he has.

Dani is a more superb rider with a much smaller body on a much more complicated field.

Dani would have obliderated Sete, max and co on those 500cc bikes and then on the 1000's as well and he would NOT have done it by beating them all on the second last lap to piss them off like Rossi did, he would have lapped the field, tell me otherwise.

When dani reached the GP in 2006 from a 250cc he was on a bigboy bike, did very well but struggled with how big it was, still won 2 races and a few podiums, Nicky won the WC, Rossi was also there. just wasn't going to happen.

2007 Dani made second place if i am not wrong, if it wasn't for stoner that was his to win.

2008 & 9 was also all about Rossi and stoner and then in 2010 came lorenzo.

Dani along with these guys has had the most complicated competition in the history of the sport (all together on track) AND IS THE SIZE AND WEIGHT OF A HUMMING BIRD!!

All in all i think he had bad luck despise having Honda back him up forever & deffo think he is a more talented (speed wise especially) than Rossi.

Jorge, Marc, Dani & obviously Stoner all have more talent than Rossi ever did, only one of them is solid enough to keep pushing it though and that is Marc.

Jorge also beat him when he had same equipment

Theo · Apr 18, 2020

I feel sad that MM has committed to another 4 years at Honda, will he retire then, just to dangle a carrot for others to beat what will be an enormous achievement in terms of wins, podiums championships.
I think he'll retire for that reason, so far out in front, but can be caught by the, I think he can be caught by the right person.
I'd have liked to see him on another bike to be honest, I'm sure he could win on any bike currently.

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