Marquez Must Reduce Risk To Break Rossi's Record

misfit · Dec 17, 2019

michaelm said:
What can’t be questioned imo are Rossi’s ability or achievements as a rider particularly at his peak, and probably even now given he is 40.

You will have to explain to me what a succession of top riders did to deserve vilification other than beat Rossi which was pretty much their job description, the major part thereof in his heyday, and how the pronouncements made in a certain pre-race press conference in Sepang can be justified.

To your first statement, I agree since it's simple as you say it. No question.

However, your second question is highly subjective and actually personal since it's a personal judgement of him, i.e., his integrity from which his professionalism stems. One can only respond in kind. I too find it difficult to justify his actions and furthermore, even if I can find them understandable, doesn't mean justification. The thing is that he, like all of us, is flawed. Which aspect of him we each wish to put into focus is a personal thing. As I said, I call out the one who defends him for any and everything he does, as much as I will call out the one does the opposite.

I find it difficult to justify hate or even outright disrespect for any of these riders, including VR. They are each full individuals who have achieved a lot as riders. We put them on such high pedestals because of their abilities as riders that we forget the quite normal individuals they can be in other ways, weaknesses, hangups, quirks and all. I've generally found that the 'nicer ones' are typically among the less ruthless and less successful with more pleasant reputations. The winners are generally more ruthless/uncompromising, or so it seems because they are watched that much more race to race. They are usually the ones under the microscope, who are naturally, more publicly challenged by other leading riders, the media and fans of the sport alike. Of course, they will attract their cult followers and the more successful the rider, the more they will attract their cult following. Their flaws are amplified in proportion to their success.

It makes for great entertainment IMO. I really enjoyed the controversy of 2015. It's this personal side of things that makes the sport that much better to watch. Rossi definitely messed up, but that's how it is. He tried and he failed. His pride was hurt, and he unfortunately will not let go. It all seems so normal in a way.

Though I can *understand* the basis behind the hate, I can't *justify* it in the very same way you can't justify pre-race Sepang.

Keshav · Dec 17, 2019

misfit said:
To your first statement, I agree since it's simple as you say it. No question.

However, your second question is highly subjective and actually personal since it's a personal judgement of him, i.e., his integrity from which his professionalism stems. One can only respond in kind. I too find it difficult to justify his actions and furthermore, even if I can find them understandable, doesn't mean justification. The thing is that he, like all of us, is flawed. Which aspect of him we each wish to put into focus is a personal thing. As I said, I call out the one who defends him for any and everything he does, as much as I will call out the one does the opposite.

I find it difficult to justify hate or even outright disrespect for any of these riders, including VR. They are each full individuals who have achieved a lot as riders. We put them on such high pedestals because of their abilities as riders that we forget the quite normal individuals they can be in other ways, weaknesses, hangups, quirks and all. I've generally found that the 'nicer ones' are typically among the less ruthless and less successful with more pleasant reputations. The winners are generally more ruthless/uncompromising, or so it seems because they are watched that much more race to race. They are usually the ones under the microscope, who are naturally, more publicly challenged by other leading riders, the media and fans of the sport alike. Of course, they will attract their cult followers and the more successful the rider, the more they will attract their cult following. Their flaws are amplified in proportion to their success.

It makes for great entertainment IMO. I really enjoyed the controversy of 2015. It's this personal side of things that makes the sport that much better to watch. Rossi definitely messed up, but that's how it is. He tried and he failed. His pride was hurt, and he unfortunately will not let go. It all seems so normal in a way. Though I can *understand* the basis behind the hate, I can't *justify* it in the very same way you can't justify pre-race Sepang.

I get what you're saying mate . . . but a high pedestal infers a high bar for basic decency and ethics. The fact remains that Rossi has been given a pass on too many instances, behaviors that have come under the umbrella of "it's just a bit over the line" or "it was in the heat of the moment" and so on. Sure, his antics have provided for a lot of soap opera and flame wars over the years, but as he's gotten older and no wiser his nonsense has become less and less tolerable. Unlike some, I don't care about, and don't want to know about, any sportsman's off-track behavior (assuming he's not beating women, abusing animals or laundering money for the mob) - but fairness and honesty with relationship to racing itself is something most all of us value. It's what separates sport from warfare.

michaelm · Dec 18, 2019

misfit said:
To your first statement, I agree since it's simple as you say it. No question.

However, your second question is highly subjective and actually personal since it's a personal judgement of him, i.e., his integrity from which his professionalism stems. One can only respond in kind. I too find it difficult to justify his actions and furthermore, even if I can find them understandable, doesn't mean justification. The thing is that he, like all of us, is flawed. Which aspect of him we each wish to put into focus is a personal thing. As I said, I call out the one who defends him for any and everything he does, as much as I will call out the one does the opposite.

I find it difficult to justify hate or even outright disrespect for any of these riders, including VR. They are each full individuals who have achieved a lot as riders. We put them on such high pedestals because of their abilities as riders that we forget the quite normal individuals they can be in other ways, weaknesses, hangups, quirks and all. I've generally found that the 'nicer ones' are typically among the less ruthless and less successful with more pleasant reputations. The winners are generally more ruthless/uncompromising, or so it seems because they are watched that much more race to race. They are usually the ones under the microscope, who are naturally, more publicly challenged by other leading riders, the media and fans of the sport alike. Of course, they will attract their cult followers and the more successful the rider, the more they will attract their cult following. Their flaws are amplified in proportion to their success.

It makes for great entertainment IMO. I really enjoyed the controversy of 2015. It's this personal side of things that makes the sport that much better to watch. Rossi definitely messed up, but that's how it is. He tried and he failed. His pride was hurt, and he unfortunately will not let go. It all seems so normal in a way. Though I can *understand* the basis behind the hate, I can't *justify* it in the very same way you can't justify pre-race Sepang.

This is a very old argument now and neither you nor I are likely to alter our positions at this juncture as you imply.

I have no problem with on-track ruthlessness, I was and am a big time Doohan fan, and in fact posted under that name on another forum. I don’t mind fierce rivalries or the riders disliking each other either, again cf Doohan’s relationships with Biaggi and Criville, it adds spice as you say.

I admit to being coloured by shallow patriotism/nationalism as a sports fan in general, and hence was never an emotionally invested Rossi fan, but thought he was a great rider as did pretty much everyone, and correctly so as we have discussed. I did find the last corner Jerez 2005 thing somewhat disturbing at the time with no horse in that particular race, but did not have a problem with much else during his glory years.

The Sepang 2015 press conference proved to me that Rossi was a full participant/collaborator in the behaviour of that element among his fans towards his rivals, and his deliberate employment of them is imo (avoiding expletives) fairly weak. It was outrageous again imo to make such unsupported and indeed fairly inarguably nonsensical allegations to the world press at an official press conference, and I don’t think a participant in most other major international sports would have gotten away with doing so, let alone been coddled by the organisers/management ie uncle Carmelo. Someone other than you likened all this to soccer hooliganism and called it the nature of sports fandom; this is doubtless an imperfect analogy both ways, but soccer stars however huge are not afaik allowed to incite their fans, and excessive fan behaviour leads to closed stadia and games with no fans in attendance.

What Rossi has mainly succeeded in doing imo is motivating a rider at least as talented and possibly even more ruthless than he is to be absolutely implacable in the pursuit of the expungement of all his records; that implacability may lead to MM maiming himself in the attempt of course as per the thread title. I wasn’t a big MM fan in the ‘Murder Marc’ days, but find it hard not to admire how he has stood up in the face of all this when others have quailed, including another favourite of mine in Casey Stoner.

p4p1 · Dec 18, 2019

I’d like to point out there is a vast amount of great athletes who are great people. In-game they may be ruthless but the moment the game has ended they show themselves to consistently be excellent role models. You can’t use ruthlessness being a driver behind success for off-track manipulation and/or cheating.

misfit · Dec 19, 2019

michaelm said:
This is a very old argument now and neither you nor I are likely to alter our positions at this juncture as you imply.

I have no problem with on-track ruthlessness, I was and am a big time Doohan fan, and in fact posted under that name on another forum. I don’t mind fierce rivalries or the riders disliking each other either, again cf Doohan’s relationships with Biaggi and Criville, it adds spice as you say.

I admit to being coloured by shallow patriotism/nationalism as a sports fan in general, and hence was never an emotionally invested Rossi fan, but thought he was a great rider as did pretty much everyone, and correctly so as we have discussed. I did find the last corner Jerez 2005 thing somewhat disturbing at the time with no horse in that particular race, but did not have a problem with much else during his glory years.

The Sepang 2015 press conference proved to me that Rossi was a full participant/collaborator in the behaviour of that element among his fans towards his rivals, and his deliberate employment of them is imo (avoiding expletives) fairly weak. It was outrageous again imo to make such unsupported and indeed fairly inarguably nonsensical allegations to the world press at an official press conference, and I don’t think a participant in most other major international sports would have gotten away with doing so, let alone been coddled by the organisers/management ie uncle Carmelo. Someone other than you likened all this to soccer hooliganism and called it the nature of sports fandom; this is doubtless an imperfect analogy both ways, but soccer stars however huge are not afaik allowed to incite their fans, and excessive fan behaviour leads to closed stadia and games with no fans in attendance.

What Rossi has mainly succeeded in doing imo is motivating a rider at least as talented and possibly even more ruthless than he is to be absolutely implacable in the pursuit of the expungement of all his records; that implacability may lead to MM maiming himself in the attempt of course as per the thread title. I wasn’t a big MM fan in the ‘Murder Marc’ days, but find it hard not to admire how he has stood up in the face of all this when others have quailed, including another favourite of mine in Casey Stoner.

You made some good points here. Makes hanging around this forum worthwhile. I certainly understand your point of view. But seriously, our arguments are all old, aren't they?

Regarding Stoner. I seriously like him and IMO, don't really think he quailed for the reasons you described. He had a particular temperament and simply loved riding bikes quickly. Yes, he enjoyed the racing and to the highest level, but he disliked the media circus, with or without the VR fan mania. He had his threshold of tolerance exceeded and he quite courageously took his stand and retired from the sport. I doubt this had everything to do with it since he had already suffered his own share of injuries up to that point.

michaelm · Dec 19, 2019

misfit said:
You made some good points here. Makes hanging around this forum worthwhile. I certainly understand your point of view. But seriously, our arguments are all old, aren't they?

Regarding Stoner. I seriously like him and IMO, don't really think he quailed for the reasons you described. He had a particular temperament and simply loved riding bikes quickly. Yes, he enjoyed the racing and to the highest level, but he disliked the media circus, with or without the VR fan mania. He had his threshold of tolerance exceeded and he quite courageously took his stand and retired from the sport. I doubt this had everything to do with it since he had already suffered his own share of injuries up to that point.

As it happens there was something in local media this week from Stoner about chronic fatigue syndrome still troubling him.

I pretty much agree with what you say about Stoner of course, but was not going to go on a side track about him. Like MM he was never going to ride until 40 due to his out there riding style, and the focus required for him to ride as he did in his 2 championship years took a great toll on him, which probably partly explains his abreactions post race; Dovi who was his team-mate at HRC in 2011 said he was a different person when he worked with him again in his later role as a sometime Ducati test rider. MM on the other hand is a born shark and riding as he does is as natural as breathing for him.

I too think Stoner decided he had proved all he needed to prove at least to himself and fairly courageously decided to stop despite huge money being available for him to continue, with his impending first child, Simoncelli's death and his wife's close relationship with Marco's girlfriend influential. In his biography which is of course his view of things rather than necessarily the revealed truth he does make it clear that the behavior of an element among fandom was one of the things that rankled with him as part of his distaste for the circus in general and in particular that such fans after being somewhat chastened for a period by Simoncelli's death were back to the usual backbiting within a matter of weeks, and I don't think he was referring to his own fans. He cites being spat at by a Rossi fan at a British GP as well. He also believed attitudes towards him from/his treatment by the organisers/owners of the sport was rather different than other top riders past and present. He doesn't blame Rossi for the behavior of his fans though, which was also my attitude prior to that Sepang press conference in 2015.

RCV600RR · Dec 20, 2019

Stoner had nothing left to prove.

Keshav · Dec 20, 2019

RCV600RR said:
Stoner had nothing left to prove.

Agree. Many people only take notice of someone like Stoner about the time they see him in the 250 class, and have no awareness of just how long the path is from being in some 50cc toddler class in some dirt poor part of Australia to multiple time world champion. They see a rider like him as (in their minds) existing only from the time they acquire their brief limited awareness of him.

He set his goal and reached it. I've said it before . . . I think it's a sign of healthy thinking to be able to know when what you do is no longer fulfilling. I reckon he felt it was time to leave behind childhood ambitions and enjoy the fruits of his labors while still young and healthy. That to me is a true success story.

320Dave · Dec 21, 2019

Seems like we are leaving out how Stoners final decision to retire was when Dorna (acting as a Rossi minion or Honda hater) (Dani pedrosa's words) Took the tires that worked for them away, 6 races into 2012 season.

Pretty sure he announced retirement that weekend or the next? Or was it after breaking his ankle?

As far as Rossi antics go, that 2005 move he pulled on Sete he had done to Barros as well when Barros was kicking his arse once he got the 4 stroke west update. nobody seems to remember that.

2008 laguna was also fine?

I for one don't have to pretend I am fine with all he has done wrong and all the unfair support he had from Dorna.

michaelm · Dec 21, 2019

320Dave said:
Seems like we are leaving out how Stoners final decision to retire was when Dorna (acting as a Rossi minion or Honda hater) (Dani pedrosa's words) Took the tires that worked for them away, 6 races into 2012 season.

Pretty sure he announced retirement that weekend or the next? Or was it after breaking his ankle?

As far as Rossi antics go, that 2005 move he pulled on Sete he had done to Barros as well when Barros was kicking his arse once he got the 4 stroke west update. nobody seems to remember that.

2008 laguna was also fine?

I for one don't have to pretend I am fine with all he has done wrong and all the unfair support he had from Dorna.

Stoner wanted to retire after the 2011 title season but was talked out of it by Nakamoto. The tire change was more than likely the last straw, but he also wasn't best pleased by the late weight change on the 2012 Honda he had been developing/testing for a year and on which he was mostly a second a lap or more faster than the field in testing up until the weight change.

320Dave · Dec 21, 2019

michaelm said:
Stoner wanted to retire after the 2011 title season but was talked out of it by Nakamoto. The tire change was more than likely the last straw, but he also wasn't best pleased by the late weight change on the 2012 Honda he had been developing/testing for a year and on which he was mostly a second a lap or more faster than the field in testing up until the weight change.

Eff me Yes how could I forget about that.

Didn't Rossi have quite a say in that as well?

What i don't get is that the weight rule was for the total weight of Bike + pilot yes?

I mean Pedrosa yes because he is the size of a humming bird but couldn't stoner's bike go without the extra sandbags?

albert91 · Jan 2, 2020

thank you for this informations

RCV600RR · Jan 6, 2020

320Dave said:
Eff me Yes how could I forget about that.

Didn't Rossi have quite a say in that as well?

All of the riders except Repsol Honda voted for it.

320Dave said:
What i don't get is that the weight rule was for the total weight of Bike + pilot yes?

No - bike only.

michaelm · Jan 6, 2020

RCV600RR said:
All of the riders except Repsol Honda voted for it.

No - bike only.

It was bike only, and a vote by the manufacturers not the riders, which had to be unanimous to circumvent the tech reg/rule change rather than the other way around. As I recall the story at the time was that the vote by the MMI or whatever you call them (EDIT MSMA) was initially called unanimous against the change, then later revised to Ducati having been a dissenter but Honda lying about them being so, which seemed strange given that Ducati could surely have told Dorna the vote wasn't unanimous from the get go. Why they had a vote that far into the development etc of the bike is the question, the ostensible reason was to help Ducati (EDIT to help the CRT bikes, I looked it up), and I am sure had nothing to do with Stoner dominating pre-season testing on the original bike designed around the original regulations proclaimed over a year before and which had been under testing from well before the end of the previous season.

The rider vote was in regard to the original tire which suited Stoner and HRC and which they were allowed to continue with for the early races of the season, and it is again unremarkable to me that riders would vote against the tire on which Stoner on the HRC bike was faster than the remainder of the field; Rossi himself even admitted at the time that the adverse effect on Stoner was his own motive in voting as he did. Also iirc what HRC wanted was for both tires to continue for the season. Amusingly the new tire, ostensibly (I can use that word again) introduced late in the pre-season for safety reasons with which I remember Capirossi having some involvement, proved prone to falling apart in racing conditions which Stoner had actually predicted, Rossi being the victim of same on at least one occasion. The first rider tire vote was unprecedented to my knowledge, but after the second more recent rider tire vote in which the circumstances were not completely identical it was recognized even by Dorna that withdrawing a previously approved tire mid season was unfair, and a new regulation promulgated which prohibits this happening again.

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