Marquez Must Reduce Risk To Break Rossi's Record

moto vudu · Dec 4, 2019

michaelm said:
You are the one generalising matters, I am of the opinion that Rossi specifically has orchestrated campaigns of vilification against a number of his rivals in the sport of gp bike racing, hence my dislike for/disapproval of him. Prior to 2015 I blamed a fringe element among his fandom rather than Rossi himself, but the events of late season 2015 made it very clear he was fully complicit. Marquez actually called him on it, then used it as extra motivation rather than being dismayed as were the likes of Biaggi, Gibernau and Stoner, one of the reasons I came to admire him after initially belonging to the ‘murder marc’ school of
thought.

How did Rossi orchestrate compaigns of vilification? His fans will typically dislike his rivals by default just like fans of Rossi's rivals dislike him. The only difference is Rossi has the most fans.

Furiosa · Dec 4, 2019

michaelm said:
Y...I am of the opinion that Rossi specifically has orchestrated campaigns of vilification against a number of his rivals in the sport of gp bike racing, hence my dislike for/disapproval of him. Prior to 2015 I blamed a fringe element among his fandom rather than Rossi himself, but the events of late season 2015 made it very clear he was fully complicit. Marquez actually called him on it, then used it as extra motivation rather than being dismayed as were the likes of Biaggi, Gibernau and Stoner, one of the reasons I came to admire him after initially belonging to the ‘murder marc’ school of
thought.

100% agree and same with 2015

michaelm · Dec 4, 2019

moto vudu said:
How did Rossi orchestrate compaigns of vilification? His fans will typically dislike his rivals by default just like fans of Rossi's rivals dislike him. The only difference is Rossi has the most fans.

Imo only (of course) you are being disingenuous.

He clearly demonstrated he was in control of much of this in 2015, which is when my attitude changed. After PI 2015 his fans were initially targeting Iannone, which he totally canned with a sentence or two, while inflaming them against MM in that infamous pre-Sepang 2015 press conference with his ridiculous allegation that MM had tanked a race that he actually won, in the process depriving Lorenzo of 5 points, to aid Lorenzo against him. This would have been fairly silly imo if he had concluded this on his own, but might have had more credibility given he is a very great rider with more experience and knowledge than any observer, but it later emerged that it was Uccio who came up with the PI conspiracy theory as said motogp maven subsequently proudly announced. For me this brought the previous anti-Biaggi and anti-Stoner stuff, the Gibernau curse etc etc into sharp relief; what were the fabled mind games if not significantly about employing his massive fan base against his rivals?. MM actually directly called him on it as I have said.

michaelm · Dec 4, 2019

Furiosa said:
100% agree and same with 2015

I didn’t cast Jorge as one of those dismayed as I don’t believe he is particularly easily dismayed, but I do think as with Stoner’s early retirement that things became so poisonous for him that his career ended less gloriously than he deserved. Jorge clearly wanted to be a Yamaha guy for life but that option became untenable for him despite winning 3 titles for them, like Roberts, Lawson and Rainey, in his case Yamaha’s last 3 titles.

moto vudu · Dec 4, 2019

michaelm said:
Imo only (of course) you are being disingenuous.

He clearly demonstrated he was in control of much of this in 2015, which is when my attitude changed. After PI 2015 his fans were initially targeting Iannone, which he totally canned with a sentence or two, while inflaming them against MM in that notorious pre-Sepang 2015 press conference with his ridiculous allegation that MM had tanked a race that he actually won, in the process depriving Lorenzo of 5 points, to aid Lorenzo against him. This would have been fairly silly no if he had come up with said conspiracy theory on his own, but might have had more credibility if he had concluded this on his own given he is a very great rider with more experience and knowledge than any observer, but it later emerged that it was Uccio who came up with the PI conspiracy theory as said motogp maven subsequently proudly announced. For me this brought the previous anti-Biaggi and anti-Stoner stuff, the Gibernau curse etc etc into sharp relief; what were the fabled mind games if not significantly about employing his massive fan base against his rivals?.. MM actually directly called him on it as I have said.

You really are stuck in 2015 aren't you? Did you just finish watching Mayweather vs Pacquiao? What about the VW emissions scandal? Kobe Bryant retired!?!!

michaelm · Dec 4, 2019

moto vudu said:
You really are stuck in 2015 aren't you? Did you just finish watching Mayweather vs Pacquiao? What about the VW emissions scandal? Kobe Bryant retired!?!!

I am away from home working at the moment, but did watch a replay of the recent Lakers vs Mavs game in my motel room last night and was deeply impressed by Doncic.

If you are arguing the point you are arguing it is rather convenient for you to want me to forget 2015. I am prepared to forget that season when Valentino does, and he resiles not from his stance on the events of that year.

320Dave · Dec 4, 2019

moto vudu said:
Are you sure he saw that fist wave?

Russians wouldn't program a bot to troll this forum, their bot would troll politcal forums hoping to influence elections.

You overestimate the ability of a sports team or sports figure to control their fans. There have been killings at soccer matches, do you believe a team or player orchestrated it? People are tribal by nature, when they like a particular team, athlete/racer, many of them will start to hate the rivals. Rossi doesn't tell his fan anything, they act on their own free will.

Doubt he saw it :giggle::giggle:

In regards to the fans, only Rossi's fans can compare to ....... soccer fans & hooligans.

Its the type of fan this man attracts that are stinkers, happy to boo other riders, will never accept a wrong from him regardless of how ...... up whatever he does is & a very stinky attitude towards the others who can rival him.

You guys linked me to this VR46 forum back in the day in a joke thread that was talking about 2007.

Valebans were praising Stoner in race 1 and 2...

Then it turned into a pure .... hate fest, this is what Rossi does, he brings controversy and hate, pleeeeenty of hate.

Just the fact that you had to compare MotoGp fandom to soccer fandom to support your point of view tells what we need to know.

Keshav · Dec 4, 2019

moto vudu said:
You really are stuck in 2015 aren't you? Did you just finish watching Mayweather vs Pacquiao? What about the VW emissions scandal? Kobe Bryant retired!?!!

Those who don't learn (and acknowledge) history are doomed to repeat it. Those who try to re-write it can't handle reality.

You've been around this forum long enough to know that most or all of the members are far too smart to be baffled and confused
by diversions consisting of nothing more than obvious straw man arguments. Pretending 2015 didn't happen won't change anybody's mind.

Little Walter · Dec 4, 2019

320Dave said:
Doubt he saw it :giggle::giggle:

In regards to the fans, only Rossi's fans can compare to ....... soccer fans & hooligans.

Its the type of fan this man attracts that are stinkers, happy to boo other riders, will never accept a wrong from him regardless of how ...... up whatever he does is & a very stinky attitude towards the others who can rival him.

You guys linked me to this VR46 forum back in the day in a joke thread that was talking about 2007.

Valebans were praising Stoner in race 1 and 2...

Then it turned into a pure .... hate fest, this is what Rossi does, he brings controversy and hate, pleeeeenty of hate.

Just the fact that you had to compare MotoGp fandom to soccer fandom to support your point of view tells what we need to know.

It is not Vale so much that is responsible for the ...... segment of his fanbase. There are always in sports a type that isn't really interested in fine points and nuances of the sport. They're only interested in rallying around a perceived alpha dog, a substitute for the leader of the pack type whose mission is to dominate and kill opposition. They see all sports as metaphor for war. In real life, the lesser dogs seeing the alpha losing his mojo, run him off or just kill and eat him. Because race fans are human they have sophisticated mechanisms to fool themselves into a state of delusion to save themselves from the pain of hubris. But of course, they like to come here and bark a lot too.

michaelm · Dec 4, 2019

Little Walter said:
It is not Vale so much that is responsible for the ...... segment of his fanbase. There are always in sports a type that isn't really interested in fine points and nuances of the sport. They're only interested in rallying around a perceived alpha dog, a substitute for the leader of the pack type whose mission is to dominate and kill opposition. They see all sports as metaphor for war. In real life, the lesser dogs seeing the alpha losing his mojo, run him off or just kill and eat him. Because race fans are human they have sophisticated mechanisms to fool themselves into a state of delusion to save themselves from the pain of hubris. But of course, they like to come here and bark a lot too.

Sure, Valentino is probably the only gp bike rider who has ever had enough fame on the world stage to attract fans of the glory hunter variety, and I formerly blamed a fringe element among his fans for the treatment any significant rival, and even a not so significant rival in Toni Elias, copped rather than Valentino himself. Stoner’s biography which at least presumably reflects his view of matters if not necessarily truth incarnate, mainly blamed those fans rather than Rossi himself for his treatment, although he did reflect that Valentino was treated differently than other riders and was both prepared to engage in, and could get away with, behaviour/riding not an option for other riders.

It has become clear to me that he is not an innocent bystander in regard to the behaviour of his fans as I have said. I don’t think many Man United players were in the habit of encouraging soccer hooligans to riot; MV drew the soccer hooligan analogy not me btw.

Little Walter · Dec 5, 2019

Keshav said:
Those who don't learn (and acknowledge) history are doomed to repeat it. Those who try to re-write it can't handle reality.

You've been around this forum long enough to know that most or all of the members are far too smart to be baffled and confused
by diversions consisting of nothing more than obvious straw man arguments. Pretending 2015 didn't happen won't change anybody's mind.

Okay okay Mrs. Lincoln, that's all very interesting, but aside from that, what did you think about the play?

povol · Dec 5, 2019

moto vudu said:
You really are stuck in 2015 aren't you? Did you just finish watching Mayweather vs Pacquiao? What about the VW emissions scandal? Kobe Bryant retired!?!!

At the end of 2014, Rossi fans were tripping over themselves by the tens of millions to jump on the Marquez win wagon. They even had Rossi’s approval and hey were set to cheer a winner for the next decade. Then 2015 happened and their dream was snatched from under their noses on the word of Rossi himself. He instructed them to hate Marquez and like good little sheep , they did as they were told. I’m not sure if people have been paying attention, but the younger GP crowd is Marc’s. The 25 and under crowd can’t remember when Rossi did anything and the 30 and under crowd’s memory is getting foggy as to what this guy actually ever did. Rossi’s mainstay crowd appears to be in the 35-50 age group while the older fan like myself who grew up with a sense of fair play have distanced themselves from Rossi as the facade fell, showing the world what a small little bitter man he is.

michaelm · Dec 6, 2019

povol said:
At the end of 2014, Rossi fans were tripping over themselves by the tens of millions to jump on the Marquez win wagon. They even had Rossi’s approval and hey were set to cheer a winner for the next decade. Then 2015 happened and their dream was snatched from under their noses on the word of Rossi himself. He instructed them to hate Marquez and like good little sheep , they did as they were told. I’m not sure if people have been paying attention, but the younger GP crowd is Marc’s. The 25 and under crowd can’t remember when Rossi did anything and the 30 and under crowd’s memory is getting foggy as to what this guy actually ever did. Rossi’s mainstay crowd appears to be in the 35-50 age group while the older fan like myself who grew up with a sense of fair play have distanced themselves from Rossi as the facade fell, showing the world what a small little bitter man he is.

I agree with the thrust of what you are saying, but I don't think he is quite as bad as that, and certainly wasn't always thus. If he had quit after the 2009 title even you and I would be arguing about him vs MM with plenty of evidence for his side of the argument.

This whole quest for the 10th title he never needed (everyone recognized him as Ago's superior), it would seem while living in a bubble created by the likes of Uccio, is where he has become bitter and small. The idea that he was somehow owed that title is what puzzles me, given him being handed one would cheapen all the titles he quite legitimately won. I basically go with a previous argument of yours, that he once appeared to be above the other greats, but actually is pretty much co-equal with KRSR, Lawson, Rainey and Doohan etc. Where MM sits remains to be fully determined, but he won't be riding at age 40 one way or another.

Aw Mang · Dec 6, 2019

Give motovudu some credits. He is still sticking around to defend his hero while other Rossi fans basically disappeared and only show up when MM crashes or end up second. Can you imagine shitting on a rider who finish second while on one of the thread, a Rossi fan basically cheered Rossi for finishing 4th or something.

michaelm · Dec 6, 2019

Aw Mang said:
Give motovudu some credits. He is still sticking around to defend his hero while other Rossi fans basically disappeared and only show up when MM crashes or end up second. Can you imagine shitting on a rider who finish second while on one of the thread, a Rossi fan basically cheered Rossi for finishing 4th or something.

Sure, I too admire MV for his loyalty.

Not much point going over this old ground over and over, no-one is going to change their mind at this juncture, but I was somewhat triggered by the implication that fans other than Rossi fans were the ones with the problem with perspective.

Keshav · Dec 7, 2019

michaelm said:
Sure, I too admire MV for his loyalty.

Not much point going over this old ground over and over, no-one is going to change their mind at this juncture, but I was somewhat triggered by the implication that fans other than Rossi fans were the ones with the problem with perspective.

Personally - I think the Ukrainians are to blame.

misfit · Dec 9, 2019

Little Walter said:
It is not Vale so much that is responsible for the ...... segment of his fanbase. There are always in sports a type that isn't really interested in fine points and nuances of the sport. They're only interested in rallying around a perceived alpha dog, a substitute for the leader of the pack type whose mission is to dominate and kill opposition. They see all sports as metaphor for war. In real life, the lesser dogs seeing the alpha losing his mojo, run him off or just kill and eat him. Because race fans are human they have sophisticated mechanisms to fool themselves into a state of delusion to save themselves from the pain of hubris. But of course, they like to come here and bark a lot too.

Yep!

misfit · Dec 9, 2019

michaelm said:
Sure, I too admire MV for his loyalty.

Not much point going over this old ground over and over, no-one is going to change their mind at this juncture, but I was somewhat triggered by the implication that fans other than Rossi fans were the ones with the problem with perspective.

There can certainly be warped perspectives from either side. My hackles raise the more extreme the perspective.

michaelm · Dec 9, 2019

misfit said:
There can certainly be warped perspectives from either side. My hackles raise the more extreme the perspective.

What can’t be questioned imo are Rossi’s ability or achievements as a rider particularly at his peak, and probably even now given he is 40.

You will have to explain to me what a succession of top riders did to deserve vilification other than beat Rossi which was pretty much their job description, the major part thereof in his heyday, and how the pronouncements made in a certain pre-race press conference in Sepang can be justified.

gui22a · Dec 11, 2019

I don't think he has worried with records.

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Marquez Must Reduce Risk To Break Rossi's Record

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Little Walter

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