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lorenzo to leave ducati?

Except Ducati and Suzuki were far more competitive as Bridgestone teams when there was a tyre war than they were with the Bridgestone control tyre, with which race wins were entirely by Yamaha or Honda factory riders with the exception of Casey Stoner riding a Ducati in 2009 and 2010, for 7 years, or 8 if 2008 is counted as being in the control tyre era, with no non-Honda or Yamaha factory rider wins at all in the years 2011-2015 inclusive, however you may care to theorise about or eulogise the change to the Bridgestone control tyre.
Having access to Michelins to serve as a crutch wouldn't have fixed Ducati or Suzuki's woes (may well have exacerbated the symptoms though) or enabled them to compete on software/electronics development with the Hondas & Yamahas.

Also, if Casey Stoner is to be taken to be an exception, its only fair to include the other two exceptions - Dovizioso & Spies who had factory rides but registered almost no wins.

With a great rider, esp. in Suzuki's case and a good bike, esp. in Ducati's case, both teams proved themselves capable of winning races in 2016, despite running a spec tyre.
 
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Having access to Michelins to serve as a crutch wouldn't have fixed Ducati or Suzuki's woes (may well have exacerbated the symptoms though) or enabled them to compete on software/electronics development with the Hondas & Yamahas.

Also, if Casey Stoner is to be taken to be an exception, its only fair to include the other two exceptions - Dovizioso & Spies who had factory rides but registered almost no wins.

With a great rider, esp. in Suzuki's case and a good bike, esp. in Ducati's case, both teams proved themselves capable of winning races in 2016, despite running a spec tyre.

The decision to go to the control tyre was with Bridgestone, however, and that was for 7 or 8 years depending on one's point of view, which is why I said the Bridgestone control tyre knowing your modus operandi and anticipating your response, even apart from 7 years being a rather larger sample size than one. The question is how Casey Stoner and Ducati would have gone had they continued to be provided with suitable Bridgestone tyres had the tyre war continued btw, to which hypothetical speculation regarding how a Michelin tyre would have suited them is not very relevant as far as I can see.

Imo, which as opposed to what you seem to assume is the case with your own opinion does not have the status of fact, the more expansive list of winners in 2016 had more to do with the control ECU, weather events, tyre gambles/good judgement with tyre choices and capricious failure of more than one variety of Michelin tyre than the control Michelin bring suited to a wider variety of bikes or being less suited to factory Hondas and Yamahas as opposed to other marques including Suzuki and Ducati. I will await future events and see how much Ducati and Suzuki prosper for 5 years or more with a Michelin control tyre.

Btw, despite all previous discussion you continue to dispute the quality of the 2006 Ducati on non-control Bridgestones, despite much more in the way of the bad luck (particularly injury) which you contend justifies inflation of Ducati's 2016 performance, in 2006 relative to 2016.
 
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The decision to go to the control tyre was with Bridgestone, however, and that was for 7 or 8 years depending on one's point of view, which is why I said the Bridgestone control tyre knowing your modus operandi and anticipating your response, even apart from 7 years being a rather larger sample size than one.
I will await future events and see how much Ducati and Suzuki prosper for 5 years or more with a Michelin control tyre.
Maybe factor in all the Capirossi performances on the Ducati then. And include Melandri, Bayliss, Checa & Gibernau. All of whom raced on non-spec tyres.

The question is how Casey Stoner and Ducati would have gone had they continued to be provided with suitable Bridgestone tyres had the tyre war continued btw, to which hypothetical speculation regarding how a Michelin tyre would have suited them is not very relevant as far as I can see.
The tyre war was still on in 2008. Had it continued in 2009, Bridgestones run by Stoner that season would still have only been marginally different. They only real option available to Ducati was to switch to Michelins.

Imo, which as opposed to what you seem to assume is the case with your own opinion does not have the status of fact, the more expansive list of winners in 2016 had more to do with the control ECU, weather events, tyre gambles/good judgement with tyre choices and capricious failure of more than one variety of Michelin tyre than the control Michelin bring suited to a wider variety of bikes or being less suited to factory Hondas and Yamahas as opposed to other marques including Suzuki and Ducati.
Weather at Austria on race day was great and there was nothing unusual about cool conditions at Silverstone or rain at Sepang. Marquez (at Silverstone) and Dovizioso (at A1 ring) got their tyre choice wrong but that wouldn't have changed the outcome of those races. The spec ECU played a huge role. Obviously.

That doesn't change the fact that the Ducati was competitive nearly everywhere, capable of podiuming at all tracks except for a few. This against a field of 4 or 5 'aliens' but without the services of an 'alien' rider of its own.

And the new Ducatis weren't slow on spec Bridgestones either - its riders started the 2015 season with a 2-3 at Qatar and were consistently finishing within the top 5.

Btw, despite all previous discussion you continue to dispute the quality of the 2006 Ducati on non-control Bridgestones despite much more in the way of the bad luck and injury, which you contend justifies inflation of Ducati's 2016 performance, in 2006 relative to 2016.
I did no such thing. The GP6 was a great bike. As were the GP15 & GP16.

My problem is with this assumption that a laissez faire tyre situation would favour the smaller poorer teams over the long run and that the tyre suppliers will (rather charitably) focus on smaller upcoming outfits at the expense of riders that can deliver wins & podiums.
 
Maybe factor in all the Capirossi performances on the Ducati then. And include Melandri, Bayliss, Checa & Gibernau. All of whom raced on non-spec tyres.


The tyre war was still on in 2008. Had it continued in 2009, Bridgestones run by Stoner that season would still have only been marginally different. They only real option available to Ducati was to switch to Michelins.


Weather at Austria on race day was great and there was nothing unusual about cool conditions at Silverstone or rain at Sepang. Marquez (at Silverstone) and Dovizioso (at A1 ring) got their tyre choice wrong but that wouldn't have changed the outcome of those races. The spec ECU played a huge role. Obviously.

That doesn't change the fact that the Ducati was competitive nearly everywhere, capable of podiuming at all tracks except for a few. This against a field of 4 or 5 'aliens' but without the services of an 'alien' rider of its own.



And the new Ducatis weren't slow on spec Bridgestones either - its riders started the 2015 season with a 2-3 at Qatar and were consistently finishing within the top 5.


I did no such thing. The GP6 was a great bike. As were the GP15 & GP16.

My problem is with this assumption that a laissez faire tyre situation would favour the smaller poorer teams over the long run and that the tyre suppliers will (rather charitably) focus on smaller upcoming outfits at the expense of riders that can deliver wins & podiums.

Your problem is an assumption that a control tyre favoured the smaller teams given that it didn't for 7 years with the Bridgestone control tyre.

You are also arguing substantially about how riders performed on the Bridgestone tyre before Bridgestone co-developed it with Ducati for several years (EDIT only one prior to 2006 actually, they switched to Bridgestone in 2005; even a non-digital native like me can google), with Rossi immediately purloining it as soon as it seemed to have an advantage with which I had no complaint, and it thereafter being developed to suit Honda and Yamaha rather than Ducati with which I did have a problem. If you take what Bridgestone themselves said at face value, as you do with everything else when it suits you, the status quo would have been Ducati continuing with Bridgestone, and Honda and Yamaha having to encourage Michelin to improve their act in the post SNS era. There is obviously some chance with a tyre war even if Rossi was with Bridgestone that they would have also continued making tyres which suited Ducati, and some chance if Ducati had gone with Michelin that Michelin would have developed a tyre which better suited the Ducati, as opposed to the actual outcome with the control tyre which was a tyre which didn't suit Ducati whatever sophistry you may attempt.

Whatever Bayliss for one did with Ducati earlier, when Ducati and Bridgestone had worked together for sufficient time the Ducati with the Bridgestone tyres seemed to quite agree with him in 2006, when he achieved the pretty much unprecedented result of a win from a one off replacement ride having not ridden a motogp bike for years. I am a big fan of Bayliss as a WSBK rider, as I was of Colin Edwards, but apart from that win in 2006 he doesn't have much in the way of credentials as a premier class GP rider.

I quote you (post #99) in regard to Bridgestone in 2005 and 2006 btw, when their main team was Ducati, "its record in 2005 & 2006 was relatively modest". Given your argument about Ducati's success being Stoner dependent, the record of bikes other than factory Yamahas and Hondas for all but 1 of the previous 13 years, and given Ducati had only been in GP racing for 3 or 4 years the record of the Bridgestone shod Ducati in 2006 ridden by non-"alien" riders you decry was exeptional.
 
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I don't see Lorenzo as the problem since Ducati have not solved their problems. Dovi had been complaining about mid corner speed for ages but Ducati didn't come with a solution for this.

This implies the engine layout is the problem, maybe V90 avoids the wheel base to be shorter and this can cause the bike to be more stable but less agile in corners and change of direction.

But it seems Ducati can't afford a change in engine layout anytime soon, that would be the second engine major redesign in 3 years. Also, they have zero experience in V engines less than 90 degrees.

A good chance would be another tire manufacturer (tire competition) joining MGP but anyone can see it coming? Forget about it... maybe another Stoner? It could be but would Philip Morris wait another 10 years time span? Improbable.

They have no way to go and that's the reason for Dovi's last comments about Ducati: "we don't know what to do". Yeah we know you don't know, that's pretty clear.

With the recent rumors of a sale by Audi, Ducati's future in MotoGP series is not looking any good. I think it's not time to Lorenzo leave but for the entire company to leave MotoGP.

Dorna acts like a ..... changing rules over and over only to find that no one can challenge Honda and Yamaha duopoly. If one is smart enough would see KTM, Suzuki and Aprillia are losing their time in MGP. They should all pack their bags and go home together with Ducati.

MGP is a two player only game. Better fill the grid with a bunch of Hondas and Yamahas and let the riders do the trick.

spec tires, spec ECU and now spec bike.
 
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Your problem is an assumption that a control tyre favoured the smaller teams given that it didn't for 7 years with the Bridgestone control tyre.
The control tyre doesn't help them or hinder them. They however gain disproportionately from the money injected by a Dorna contracted vendor.

You are also arguing substantially about how riders performed on the Bridgestone tyre before Bridgestone co-developed it with Ducati for several years (EDIT only one prior to 2006 actually, they switched to Bridgestone in 2005; even a non-digital native like me can google),
On Bridgestones at 'peak development', Capirossi ended the 2007 season in 7th place, sliding down further to 10th place the season after on a Suzuki (same tyres). And then there was Melandri's season on the GP8.

with Rossi immediately purloining it as soon as it seemed to have an advantage with which I had no complaint, and it thereafter being developed to suit Honda and Yamaha rather than Ducati with which I did have a problem. If you take what Bridgestone themselves said at face value, as you do with everything else when it suits you, the staus quo would have been Ducati continuing with Bridgestone, and Honda and Yamaha having to encourage Michelin to improve their act in the post SNS era.
An artificial tyre handicap would paper over the Ducati's core problems only upto a point. They needed someone like Dall'igna to come in and redesign their bike and reform their organisation. And they needed the Japanese advantages on the electronics/software front leveled.

As far as Honda & Yamaha were concerned they were never going to accept a tyre handicap - even if they'd persisted with the Michelins in 2008, the switch to Bridgestones in 2009 was inevitable.

And being a supplier to 5 different manufacturers, Bridgestone was never going to able to provide Ducati with the exclusive attention it had enjoyed earlier.

In any tyre war, the odds were always going to be stacked in favour of the outfits with money & influence.

There is obviously some chance with a tyre war even if Rossi was with Bridgestone that they would have also continued making tyres which suited Ducati, and some chance if Ducati had gone with Michelin that Michelin would have developed a tyre which better suited the Ducati, as opposed to the actual outcome with the control tyre which was a tyre which didn't suit Ducati whatever sophistry you may attempt.
There's an equivalent or greater chance that Ducati would have done worse on the Michelins than it actually did on the spec Bridgestones, while laying the blame at Michelin's door instead of carrying out any genuine introspection.

I quote you (post #99) in regard to Bridgestone in 2005 and 2006 btw, when their main team was Ducati, "its record in 2005 & 2006 was relatively modest". Given your argument about Ducati's success being Stoner dependent, the record of bikes other than factory Yamahas and Hondas for all but 1 of the previous 13 years, and given Ducati had only been in GP racing for 3 or 4 years the record of the Bridgestone shod Ducati in 2006 ridden by non-"alien" riders you decry was exeptional.
It was exceptional. Especially since two years later they were all nowhere.
 
I don't see Lorenzo as the problem since Ducati have not solved their problems. Dovi had been complaining about mid corner speed for ages but Ducati didn't come with a solution for this.

This implies the engine layout is the problem, maybe V90 avoids the wheel base to be shorter and this can cause the bike to be more stable but less agile in corners and change of direction.
For all Ducati's disadvantages in the mid-corner, it still better than the Suzuki on corner entry and better than the Honda on corner exit and better than the Yamaha on the straights.

Lorenzo's struggling because he has a very particular style that doesn't mesh with the Ducati's characteristics. And while he may eventually come to grips with it, sliding the bike will never be as natural for him as it was for Stoner & Marquez or even Zarco & Lowes.

They have no way to go and that's the reason for Dovi's last comments about Ducati: "we don't know what to do". Yeah we know you don't know, that's pretty clear.
Dovi is still 4th the championship ahead of Crutchlow & Pedrosa.

With the recent rumors of a sale by Audi, Ducati's future in MotoGP series is not looking any good. I think it's not time to Lorenzo leave but for the entire company to leave MotoGP.
Ducati's potential sale has nothing to do with its core fundamentals and everything to do with cost cutting at the parent end. Ducati's sales have grown yoy for seven years straight and its valuation may well exceed what VW paid for it.
 
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The control tyre doesn't help them or hinder them. They however gain disproportionately from the money injected by a Dorna contracted vendor.


On Bridgestones at 'peak development', Capirossi ended the 2007 season in 7th place, sliding down further to 10th place the season after on a Suzuki (same tyres). And then there was Melandri's season on the GP8.


An artificial tyre handicap would paper over the Ducati's core problems only upto a point. They needed someone like Dall'igna to come in and redesign their bike and reform their organisation. And they needed the Japanese advantages on the electronics/software front leveled.

As far as Honda & Yamaha were concerned they were never going to accept a tyre handicap - even if they'd persisted with the Michelins in 2008, the switch to Bridgestones in 2009 was inevitable.

And being a supplier to 5 different manufacturers, Bridgestone was never going to able to provide Ducati with the exclusive attention it had enjoyed earlier.

In any tyre war, the odds were always going to be stacked in favour of the outfits with money & influence.


There's an equivalent or greater chance that Ducati would have done worse on the Michelins than it actually did on the spec Bridgestones, while laying the blame at Michelin's door instead of carrying out any genuine introspection.


It was exceptional. Especially since two years later they were all nowhere.

You grow ever more preposterous.

While attempting line by line exegesis on the posts of others after absences, perhaps googling, without offering any subtstantive rebuttal of almost any argument, your own argument consists of variations on "there's an equivalent or greater chance that Ducati would have done worse on the Michelins than it actually did on the spec Bridgestones, while laying the blame at Michelin's door instead of carrying out any genuine introspection". Absolute pure speculation/non-evidence based opinion and sophistry, not given any extra credibility by what you obviously consider to be impressive rhetoric/high flown language.

The actual facts, which I googled just this once, are that Ducati went with Bridgestone in 2005, Capirossi had 2 wins and a podium at the end of the season out of the last 7 races despite missing 2 of them, and Carlos Checa also 2 podiums over that time. In 2006 Capirossi had 3 wins and 5 other podiums and was equal leader in the championship before a crash not of his own causation which knocked him unconscious lead to a dnf and was followed by poor results by his previous standards in the next 3 races. Gibernau his team-mate missed several races and was getting 4ths and 5ths on his return before another crash finished his season, after which he was replaced by a WSBK rider who proceeded to win the last race in dominant fashion. They were nowhere a few years later because they listened to popular wisdom at the time and dumped Stoner for a rider far inferior to him as a Ducati rider, tried to go against their entire engineering history/DNA and make the Ducati into a Yamaha to suit that rider, and by their own account, which obviously can be dismissed for your own speculation in this case since it is you doing the speculating, the tyres no longer suited their bike design. The engine limitation rule then made their integral engine chassis completely unviable anyway, and they had to design, and then have built, a bike with a chassis along conventional Japanese lines in something like 3 months, but I am sure were happy in the knowledge that their tyres were cheaper, even though Bridgestone had supplied them for free before the control tyre anyway.

In regard to the perfromance of Stoner vs his team-mates at Ducati btw, how did Rossi's Yamaha team mates go even in his championship years before Lorenzo joined the factory Yamaha team in 2008?
 
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You grow ever more preposterous.

While attempting line by line exegesis on the posts of others after absences, perhaps googling, without offering any subtstantive rebuttal of almost any argument, your own argument consists of variations on "there's an equivalent or greater chance that Ducati would have done worse on the Michelins than it actually did on the spec Bridgestones, while laying the blame at Michelin's door instead of carrying out any genuine introspection". Absolute pure speculation/non-evidence based opinion and sophistry, not given any extra credibility by what you obviously consider to be impressive rhetoric/high flown language.
No more preposterous, speculative, incredible, rhetorical, etc etc than claiming that tyres could have 'fixed' Ducati's problems.

The actual facts, which I googled just this once, are that Ducati went with Bridgestone in 2005, Capirossi had 2 wins and a podium at the end of the season out of the last 7 races despite missing 2 of them, and Carlos Checa also 2 podiums over that time. In 2006 Capirossi had 3 wins and 5 other podiums and was equal leader in the championship before a crash not of his own causation which knocked him unconscious lead to a dnf and was followed by poor results by his previous standards in the next 3 races. Gibernau his team-mate missed several races and was getting 4ths and 5ths on his return before another crash finished his season, after which he was replaced by a WSBK rider who proceeded to win the last race in dominant fashion.
And then, on Bridgestones, in 2007 & 2008? Keep going.

I mean, if you're going to chalk up Capirossi & Ducati's successes in 2006 & earlier to open tyres regulation, only fair to blame subsequent struggles on the open tyre regulation.

They were nowhere a few years later because they listened to popular wisdom at the time and dumped Stoner for a rider far inferior to him as a Ducati rider, tried to go against their entire engineering history/DNA and make the Ducati into a Yamaha to suit that rider, and by their own account
'Dumped' Stoner? Every public source on the matter reported that Stoner had been in talks with HRC from the beginning of the the 2010 season and had a deal wrapped up within weeks (well before Rossi).

And after Stoner's departure who was Ducati expected to be developing the bike for? Not Hayden surely.

, which obviously can be dismissed for your own speculation in this case since it is you doing the speculating, the tyres no longer suited their bike design.
The bike was fine, it was just the tyres? Okay.

In regard to the perfromance of Stoner vs his team-mates at Ducati btw, how did Rossi's Yamaha team mates go even in his championship years before Lorenzo joined the factory Yamaha team in 2008?
None of them switched tyres. And I don't think any of them were significantly worse on the Yamaha than they were on a different bike.
 
Yes JKant they dumped Stoner. Read his book it sheds light on just how unappreciated he was at Ducati. They effectively forced him out.
 
Yes JKant they dumped Stoner. Read his book it sheds light on just how unappreciated he was at Ducati. They effectively forced him out.
I'll give it a whirl. I have no doubt that there were some harsh realities about the bike that they were loath to face.

All the same, with Stoner's results on the GP10 running well short of his actual capability, it would have been a wise move to sign with HRC even if all was rosy at a personal level.

Also, he eventually returned to the Ducati fold if only as a test rider & brand ambassador.
 
I'll give it a whirl. I have no doubt that there were some harsh realities about the bike that they were loath to face.

All the same, with Stoner's results on the GP10 running well short of his actual capability, it would have been a wise move to sign with HRC even if all was rosy at a personal level.

Also, he eventually returned to the Ducati fold if only as a test rider & brand ambassador.

He did but you have to remember that all the people who treated him like .... are no longer at Ducati.
 
For all Ducati's disadvantages in the mid-corner, it still better than the Suzuki on corner entry and better than the Honda on corner exit and better than the Yamaha on the straights.

These pinpoints Ducati are better on doesn't sum up to make the bike at least equal to Honda. For sure the bike has positives but these are not enough. They need to focus on chassis and this means they need another engine redesign.

Lorenzo's struggling because he has a very particular style that doesn't mesh with the Ducati's characteristics. And while he may eventually come to grips with it, sliding the bike will never be as natural for him as it was for Stoner & Marquez or even Zarco & Lowes.

Indeed but how many riders have Lorenzo style and how many have Stoner style? Let me guess, maybe a proportion of 20:1 (20 smooth-rail style rider for each 1 wild Stoner like).

So if Ducati wants to get a better chance to get somewhere they need to offer a bike that suits the majority of riders and not the minority of them.

Dovi is still 4th the championship ahead of Crutchlow & Pedrosa.

Wait until the end and maybe summing both Lorenzo and Dovi points would not result in the half of Pedrosa, let alone Marquez/Vinales.
 
No more preposterous, speculative, incredible, rhetorical, etc etc than claiming that tyres could have 'fixed' Ducati's problems.


And then, on Bridgestones, in 2007 & 2008? Keep going.

I mean, if you're going to chalk up Capirossi & Ducati's successes in 2006 & earlier to open tyres regulation, only fair to blame subsequent struggles on the open tyre regulation.


'Dumped' Stoner? Every public source on the matter reported that Stoner had been in talks with HRC from the beginning of the the 2010 season and had a deal wrapped up within weeks (well before Rossi).

And after Stoner's departure who was Ducati expected to be developing the bike for? Not Hayden surely.


The bike was fine, it was just the tyres? Okay.


None of them switched tyres. And I don't think any of them were significantly worse on the Yamaha than they were on a different bike.

This is getting tedious as well as preposterous.

I am making no claims about tyres fixing anything, I am merely recounting history which you were ignoring ie that within half a season of switching to Bridgestones before the control tyre era their bike became very competitive, and Caprirossi, who I agree is more akin to Dovi than MM or Rossi was right in the mix for the championship the following year before an accident not of his own causation, then Ducati won the championship the year after. Suzuki were also fairly competitive in 2007 as well, and not too bad in 2006. Ducati themselves said that the control tyre progressively became unsuited to their bike, and Suzuki said something similar.

As for Stoner read his book, and be aware of the events of 2009, when during his illness and absence for a number of races he was accused of malingering by the point man for Philip Morris, regarded as flaky by the paddock in general (you can find stuff on motomatters if you care to look) taunted by the Valeban as having been "mentally broken" by Rossi, and at this time Ducati started approaching other riders; this was actually when they approached Lorenzo the first time. Hayden did much of the development work on the 2010 bike in his absence with the narrative at the time being that they were looking to make the bike more generally suitable. They made fundamental changes to the bike including going from a screamer to a big bang engine, and changes to the whole weight distribution of the bike.

Stoner in his book says he regarded Ducati as family, and would never have left if they had supported him during his travails in 2009, and was particularly upset by them offering Lorenzo more money than they had been paying him. Suppo actually moved to Honda before Stoner, which it was speculated was a precursor to Stoner's move, and indeed I am sure he was committed to Honda fairly early in 2010. When Lorenzo knocked them back and Rossi became disgruntled at Yamaha Ducati then went after Rossi and obviously got him, but they were looking elsewhere than Stoner in 2009 well before any question of Stoner going to Honda.

Actually I am something of a Ferrari fan and the only downer in them looking a much better chance this year for me is that they are being managed now by Ducati's former Marlboro man.
 
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So what are the eggheads up to right now? After Bridgestone declined to put in a bid to renew its contract.


Why did Aprilia choose to work with Espargaro & Lowes instead of working double time to strike up a deal with Marquez & Zarco?

You play the hand you're dealt. Until 2007, the big factory teams had access to customized SNS tyres - Bridgestone didn't turn them down (its record in 2005 & 2006 was relatively modest). Its only after the 2007 season where Bridgestone riders took 12 wins, that the situation reversed with the Ducati team going into the new season as the outright favourite. And I don't think it likely, at that point, that Bridgestone tyre direction was being run as a democracy with Stoner having no more say than the other 8 riders.


Except that tyre development is a zero-sum game.

You can supply tyres to as many teams as request it (with a sufficient lead time for production) but you cannot focus your development on a lesser non-winning team without taking your focus off your winning customer.

Everything that's true for a control tyre field is at least half as true for a field that's serviced by two tyre suppliers - except that in the latter case, there's also a financial incentive to favour the top teams & riders.
The R&D eggheads are doing the same as they were during the control tire era. There is no competition to beat, they can develop whatever they like at their leisure. Could be designing revolutionary truck tyres for all I know. What would all the engineers be doing if MotoGP went to spec bikes and engines?

Let's play more questions. What are Aprilia even doing there? They don't even look close to a podium let alone winning a race. Why are Espargaro and Lowes even bothering to turn up each week. They have no chance of beating the competition. Why don't they go talk to Carmelo, see if he woouldnt make it spec bikes all round. That would make it more interesting no?

You play the hand your dealt, or you ask Carmelo to change your cards. Fact of the matter is tyres were playing as much a role in determining results as the rider and machine. Which meant a top rider on top tyres could win a championship without the best bike. This is precisely what Rossi complained to Carmello about prior to spec tyres.

Tyres were as evolutionary as everything else in MotoGP. They elvolved and if the dominant dinosours were too slow to evolve with them then the pesky little mammals could jump up and bite them on the .... Carmelo in effect said I'm God and I don't like the direction evolution is taking, I'm going to restore the conditions which suit the dinosaurs. Which just happened to suit 90% of the viewer fanbase, not the little Ducati Suzuki mammals you keep saying are better of this way.
 
These pinpoints Ducati are better on doesn't sum up to make the bike at least equal to Honda. For sure the bike has positives but these are not enough. They need to focus on chassis and this means they need another engine redesign.
For a major part of the last season, Ducati was a better bike than the Honda and not all that far off Yamaha (primarily because it retained grip better). The key difference was Honda & Yamaha fielding superior riders. Even this season while the GP17 is a WIP, the GP16s have no trouble keeping up with the MVDS Hondas.

Indeed but how many riders have Lorenzo style and how many have Stoner style? Let me guess, maybe a proportion of 20:1 (20 smooth-rail style rider for each 1 wild Stoner like).

So if Ducati wants to get a better chance to get somewhere they need to offer a bike that suits the majority of riders and not the minority of them.
Wherever did you get that proportion from? Take a look at any Moto2 race, and tell me how many smooth on-rails/wheels-in-line type riders you can see?

Its just the older riders like Lorenzo, Pedrosa, Bautista, Barbera who shifted from the 250cc (Stoner already an extensive dirt track background). The current generation - Marquez, Vinales, Iannone, Zarco, etc - have all proven themselves in both styles of riding, Moto3 & Moto2.

Wait until the end and maybe summing both Lorenzo and Dovi points would not result in the half of Pedrosa, let alone Marquez/Vinales.
I'll wait. Although its worth noting that Dovizioso & Iannone's combined points total from last season was well clear of Rossi's and pretty close to Marquez's. And the same total in 2015 was a good 20 pts clear of the champion Lorenzo.
 
This is getting tedious as well as preposterous.

I am making no claims about tyres fixing anything, I am merely recounting history which you were ignoring ie that within half a season of switching to Bridgestones before the control tyre era their bike became very competitive, and Caprirossi, who I agree is more akin to Dovi than MM or Rossi was right in the mix for the championship the following year before an accident not of his own causation, then Ducati won the championship the year after. Suzuki were also fairly competitive in 2007 as well, and not too bad in 2006. Ducati themselves said that the control tyre progressively became unsuited to their bike, and Suzuki said something similar.
And I'm pointing out that the competitiveness of every rider not named Stoner had started to flag before the control tyre rule was implemented.

The crux of the debate was whether the other manufacturers are capable of being competitive without the crutch of a custom tyre. The last two years have proven that they can and that's no more of an aberration than 2006 was.
 
The R&D eggheads are doing the same as they were during the control tire era. There is no competition to beat, they can develop whatever they like at their leisure. Could be designing revolutionary truck tyres for all I know. What would all the engineers be doing if MotoGP went to spec bikes and engines?

Let's play more questions. What are Aprilia even doing there? They don't even look close to a podium let alone winning a race. Why are Espargaro and Lowes even bothering to turn up each week. They have no chance of beating the competition. Why don't they go talk to Carmelo, see if he woouldnt make it spec bikes all round. That would make it more interesting no?
Carmelo imposed spec tyres, spec ECU, unified software, limitations on number of engines, and gave Aprilia extensive testing privileges denied to the top teams. They also have the example of Ducati & Suzuki, and can take heart in the the steady progress they've made over the last two seasons with their best-ever finish at Qatar this year (where they were almost as fast as Honda).

None of this explains why Bridgestone or Michelin would have any incentive to switch focus from their reliable race-winning customers to the aspiring outfits like Aprilia or Suzuki.

You play the hand your dealt, or you ask Carmelo to change your cards. Fact of the matter is tyres were playing as much a role in determining results as the rider and machine. Which meant a top rider on top tyres could win a championship without the best bike. This is precisely what Rossi complained to Carmello about prior to spec tyres.
Did you expect the likes of Honda & Yamaha to just roll over and accept an artificial handicap that they could do nothing to rectify?
 
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Carmelo imposed spec tyres & spec electronics and given Aprilia extensive testing privileges denied to the top teams. They also have the example of Ducati & Suzuki and can take heart in the the steady progress they've made over the last two seasons with their best-ever finish at Qatar this year (where they were almost as fast as Honda).

None of this explains why Bridgestone or Michelin would have any incentive to switch focus from their reliable race-winning customers to the aspiring outfits like Aprilia or Suzuki.


Did you expect the likes of Honda & Yamaha to just roll over and accept an artificial handicap that they could do nothing to rectify?

Carmelo allowed Aprilia to field a SBK in MotoGP when he screwed up the control tyre decision and lost Suzuki and Kawasaki as a result. Gigi abandoned Aprilia for Ducati, he knows more than us. Aprilia may Spring a surprise at some point, at present they simply make up the numbers and benefit from the competition. Just like tyre suppliers would have if they were allowed to hang around. The real point for being there, not the trophies.

Now in my previous post I acknowledge I made an error. A top rider on top tires did win 2007. The entire problem which led to the control tyre was it was assumed a lesser rider on a top bike and top tires won in 2007. It was being reported all over the place at the time. The PlayStation boy, winning with electronics. Rossi was outraged that this could happen. Yes Rossi, he believed in it vehemently. Stoner was a lesser rider. Wasn't trying 100%. He believed it right up until that fateful day at the end of 2010 at the Valencia test. He had to believe it, or no way in hell would he have signed up for Ducati. By then it was way too late, both for him and Carmelo.

Carmelo also believed strongly in what Rossi was saying. A lesser rider had won the championship, and set about preventing any recurrence. The fans tune in to watch the yellow mr T. rex, they aren't interested in skippy the kangaroo. Dinosaurs are far more entertaining. But by ensuring you got your fix of T. rex every week he completely destroyed the product of MotoGP to the point we had factory Honda and Yamaha vs CRT. In his desperation Carmelo actually started to push for a return to prototype or development tyres in 2012. They needed something. Interesting they looked so quickly to the tyres. They must be important.

Having the whole thing so badly screwed up, hardly any competitive teams left, Carmelo had no choice at all but to go control ecu. This is nothing like control tyre. Electronics are horrendously expensive, while tyres are relatively cheap. How many electronics techs did satellite teams have vs factory. This was the artificial handicap the factory teams cared about, not tyres. Only Rossi and Carmelo cared about tyres. How many tyre techs do satellite teams have vs factory? Neither had any, not required. The control ecu had the desired effect and allowed Carmelo to keep his job after his disastrous and misguided tyre shenanigans and failed CRT experiment.

But the most obvious thing is 2016. We had much better competition. How can that be? Control ecu was a major factor yes. The other was Michelin. After years of development with Bridgestone, do you understand what the difference was with Michelin? A totally new tyre. The equivalent of a development or prototype tire. A new supplier. All of a sudden, smaller mammal teams like Suzuki and Ducati became much more competitive because they were faster to react than the dinosaurs. Sure the lumbering giants won out in the end, but what we saw in 2016 was akin to the tyre wars. New refined tyres were being thrown out practically every second race. As time goes on and the bigs boys continue to spend and refine and spend more and refine more with Michelin it will simply go back to looking more like it was in 2015 after 7 years with Bridgestone. All because it was simply assumed a lesser rider dominated a championship in 2007.
 
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And I'm pointing out that the competitiveness of every rider not named Stoner had started to flag before the control tyre rule was implemented.

The crux of the debate was whether the other manufacturers are capable of being competitive without the crutch of a custom tyre. The last two years have proven that they can and that's no more of an aberration than 2006 was.

Take out the other riders then. Stoner's results deteriorated with the control tyre. He didn't seem to have lost any talent going by his results when he went to Honda
 

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