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lorenzo to leave ducati?

Yep, and I doubt it is David at all as he is still around a few other places I frequent plus the thing for me is that feigning ignorance is harder than feigning knowledge, so totally agree

Exactly. David is really smart, but probably not that smart.

Quite amusing for a couple of Stoner tragics such as you and I to be lectured in regard to what Casey Stoner did and said in 2009. That the overwhelming "consensus", consensus seemingly being the buzzword for JKant, about him then was proven to be wrong and the likes of you and I who argued against that view proven to be substantially correct is one of the things which led to the absence of the Valeban element on here.

I hasten to add we have had many reasonable and very knowledgeable admirers of Rossi on here, J4rn0 being a prime example. I miss Babelfish and Yamacka particularly, Yamacka's departure being probably contributed to by me given I was so incensed by the treatment of Lorenzo and MM in late 2015, which I saw as a continuation of how Stoner and to a lesser extent Hayden were treated.
 
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Who says that manufacturers will be left out?

FACTS JK are that Bridgestone, Michelin and even Dunlop have supplied multiple teams so they would like do so again, and even if they chose to restrict involvement then teams can (could) have the capability to purchase tyres, all has been done in the past and guess what ............ we styill hadt he top two so far in front, well un until 2006/2007 anyway
Six manufacturers, two tyre suppliers. Obviously some one's going to get left out.

As for Dunlop, in five years in MotoGP, Dunlop riders have had just a dozen or so top-10 finishes. And only one (lucky) top 5 finish. Most years, the bottom two or three riders in the standings, at the end of the season, were running Dunlops.

If they were serious about it, the way Bridgestone was serious about its MotoGP project, they'd have put in the 2016- tyre contract (that slipped away uncontested to Michelin). Given the logistical commonality with the Moto2/Moto3 classes, that would have had a strong edge on pricing (minus the R&D expenditure).

But point is, even with three suppliers and six manufacturers, someone is going to get left out (and its not going to be one of the big boys).

Production capacity is the exact reason they said No.

Then mysteriously changed their minds and said yes, but only for one more ............ and who was that again?

Where or why did they suddenly have the capacity?
Rossi. And then Pedrosa mid-season. So the wealthy & influential riders & teams got their way. Should anyone be surprised?

If my aunt was a bloke she would be my uncle

FACT again.

Stoner signed for Ducati and they won the title.

People whinged and whined as it was not supposed to be done by Ducati, by Bridgestone or by some .... from the southern hemisphere as the great one was beaten for two years in a row by a relatively unsung combination.
And Yamaha got Rossi a pair of Bridgestones next year and he took title back. Also, FACT. And that was not supposed to be done by Bridgestone, Dorna, Ezpeleta, Rossi, Yamaha and what have you - they should have played nice and just accepted the tyre handicap, so that Stoner could take his second title, no?

Best case scenario, they'd have let it go for one more season, and then the team as a whole would have switched to Bridgestones (probably along with Honda). Business as usual in the open tyre era.

Disagree with wealthy but accept strong team but again, Ducati had no leverage as they seeing the way DORNA were heading in 2009 wanted to go to Michelin but were rebuffed.

A strong leverage would have seen it happen (ie. getting a manufacturer capacity increased, changing mid year etc) but it did not, thus they had little leverage for as we all know, leverage and use thereof is extremely restricted in the sport as to benefits to the organisation.
Ducati wanted to run their satellite bikes on Michelins as an experiment (similar to how the Hondas ran the Gresini RC212Vs on Bridgestones). And allowing them to do that would have meant the event as a whole would have been deprived of the revenues introduced by an exclusive tyre contract at a time when the bottom had just fallen out of the sport's finances.
 
Six manufacturers, two tyre suppliers. Obviously some one's going to get left out.

Why?

They weren't in the past so what would change?



Rossi. And then Pedrosa mid-season. So the wealthy & influential riders & teams got their way. Should anyone be surprised?

Nope but pressure applied is a wonderful thing aint it


And Yamaha got Rossi a pair of Bridgestones next year and he took title back. Also, FACT. And that was not supposed to be done by Bridgestone, Dorna, Ezpeleta, Rossi, Yamaha and what have you - they should have played nice and just accepted the tyre handicap, so that Stoner could take his second title, no?

Best case scenario, they'd have let it go for one more season, and then the team as a whole would have switched to Bridgestones (probably along with Honda). Business as usual in the open tyre era.

Ducati wanted to run their satellite bikes on Michelins as an experiment (similar to how the Hondas ran the Gresini RC212Vs on Bridgestones). And allowing them to do that would have meant the event as a whole would have been deprived of the revenues introduced by an exclusive tyre contract at a time when the bottom had just fallen out of the sport's finances.

You do seem very confident that the Spec tyres (or single supplier) has worked for all but history again shows that up that throughout the entire Spec history up until 2016, all races were won by the Yamaha and Honda factory teams along with Stoner, so essentially history shows that the spec tyre has done nothing to improve competitiveness.

Sure, 2016 saw a good return and collection of winners but there were anomolies with weather and of course a change in manufacturer of the tyres so 2016 is not a genuine sample year (at this stage).
 
Six manufacturers, two tyre suppliers. Obviously some one's going to get left out.

As for Dunlop, in five years in MotoGP, Dunlop riders have had just a dozen or so top-10 finishes. And only one (lucky) top 5 finish. Most years, the bottom two or three riders in the standings, at the end of the season, were running Dunlops.

If they were serious about it, the way Bridgestone was serious about its MotoGP project, they'd have put in the 2016- tyre contract (that slipped away uncontested to Michelin). Given the logistical commonality with the Moto2/Moto3 classes, that would have had a strong edge on pricing (minus the R&D expenditure).

But point is, even with three suppliers and six manufacturers, someone is going to get left out (and its not going to be one of the big boys).


Rossi. And then Pedrosa mid-season. So the wealthy & influential riders & teams got their way. Should anyone be surprised?


And Yamaha got Rossi a pair of Bridgestones next year and he took title back. Also, FACT. And that was not supposed to be done by Bridgestone, Dorna, Ezpeleta, Rossi, Yamaha and what have you - they should have played nice and just accepted the tyre handicap, so that Stoner could take his second title, no?

Best case scenario, they'd have let it go for one more season, and then the team as a whole would have switched to Bridgestones (probably along with Honda). Business as usual in the open tyre era.


Ducati wanted to run their satellite bikes on Michelins as an experiment (similar to how the Hondas ran the Gresini RC212Vs on Bridgestones). And allowing them to do that would have meant the event as a whole would have been deprived of the revenues introduced by an exclusive tyre contract at a time when the bottom had just fallen out of the sport's finances.
The big problem with the finances of the sport was the loss of the rivers of tobacco money, with only Phillip Morris now continuing (not very) surreptitiously.

We have a fundamental disconnect here, given that your main argument for the control tyre now seems to be that it helped costs during the global financial crisis, but you ignore the costs of the bike re-designs necessitated by lack of suitable tyres or on some occasions capricious changes to tyres, which were very much more expensive for the manufacturers, who actually design and build the bikes for all the teams including the satellite teams.

It was a long held view on here as well as in the back articles you peruse that Honda had led the sport down a mineshaft to being increasingly electronics based with success significantly dependent on how many computer engineers/technicians a team could afford even once the bikes were actually at the tracks racing, and that this was a huge contributor to the unevenness of the playing field for the best part of a decade. As Birdman said, what was the ratio of ECU techs to tyre techs on the teams? Hardly anyone disputes the control ECU was a good idea, and hopefully has dragged the sport away from being mainly directed towards Honda's abstruse engineering philosophies and objectives.

You also seem (whilst picking at small holes in people's memories of events 10 years ago, and googling and selectively posting what suits your arguments against the point of view of others) to not feel the need to have any evidence for your own point of view. Your whole argument about the Bridgestone control tyre era as in this post seems to be based on what could/should/might have happened without a control tyre. The bald facts are that no satellite rider won on a Bridgestone control tyre, and non-Honda and Yamaha manufacturers became less competitive. As I have just said, electronics may well have been what was most important in all of that, but those manufacturers and even Honda themselves at one stage specifically found the lack of variety/unsuitability to their bikes of the control tyre to be problematic, and even world championship winning Honda and Yamaha factory riders (of the less popular variety) complained similarly on occasion.
 
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Lorenzo is going nowhere. He is a very talented rider and the Ducati is a very good bike and they will adjust to each other. They are both far too egotistical to part company at least this season. And as many others have pointed out Lorenzo has nowhere to go. Suzuki? I wish them well but they can't afford Lorenzo. The season is young.
 
Why?

They weren't in the past so what would change?
'Left out' not in terms of not getting any suppliers but in terms of influence in tyre development. Unless in the past, Suzuki & Kawasaki got as much as Ducati with Bridgestone or Honda/Yamaha with Michelin.

Nope but pressure applied is a wonderful thing aint it
For the likes of Yamaha & Honda, no doubt it is.

You do seem very confident that the Spec tyres (or single supplier) has worked for all but history again shows that up that throughout the entire Spec history up until 2016, all races were won by the Yamaha and Honda factory teams along with Stoner, so essentially history shows that the spec tyre has done nothing to improve competitiveness.

Sure, 2016 saw a good return and collection of winners but there were anomolies with weather and of course a change in manufacturer of the tyres so 2016 is not a genuine sample year (at this stage).
In the golden era of the sport, 1985-1995 decade, all races were won by the Yamaha and Honda factory teams along with Schwantz (plus two anomalous Cagiva wins).

And like I said before about the 2016 season, the race results at Assen and (to some extent) Brno can be chalked up to the weather but the Silverstone, Phillip Island, Red Bull Ring & Sepang race all resulted in clean wins with no unusual weather conditions. The series' tyre transition played a factor. As it did in 2007-08, when the most of the field was in the process of making an unsurprising (if, in certain cases, expedited) move to Bridgestones.

History aside, do you believe that Stoner/Marquez would have been incapable of winning races on the current Ducati, or Vinales/Lorenzo on the current Suzuki? If so, then I'll concede that spec tyres have crippled the competitiveness of Ducati, Suzuki & the rest. But if not, then clearly the critical difference is the rider.

So while there's obviously room to extract that additional two tenths in development, what the smaller teams need to fight for the podium on a regular basis is an 'alien' rider rather than a tyre supplier taking its cues from someone else's alien rider.
 
The big problem with the finances of the sport was the loss of the rivers of tobacco money, with only Phillip Morris now continuing (not very) surreptitiously.
Money that ought not to be missed. If tyre sponsorship helps make up the difference, well and good.

We have a fundamental disconnect here, given that your main argument for the control tyre now seems to be that it helped costs during the global financial crisis, but you ignore the costs of the bike re-designs necessitated by lack of suitable tyres or on some occasions capricious changes to tyres, which were very much more expensive for the manufacturers, who actually design and build the bikes for all the teams including the satellite teams.
The transition to the control tyre didn't cost the manufacturers anything. All of them were either running Bridgestones or were transitioning to Bridgestones at the time.

There was an adjustment required after the series switched to Michelin but the new tyre contract with Michelin is undoubted far more lucrative for the series than the lapsed one with Bridgestone.

For this season Dorna subsidies (up 30%) cover almost the entire cost of the annual bike lease for the satellite teams (with team sponsors required only to meet operating costs).

It was a long held view on here as well as in the back articles you peruse that Honda had led the sport down a mineshaft to being increasingly electronics based with success significantly dependent on how many computer engineers/technicians a team could afford even once the bikes were actually at the tracks racing, and that this was a huge contributor to the unevenness of the playing field for the best part of a decade. As Birdman said, what was the ratio of ECU techs to tyre techs on the teams? Hardly anyone disputes the control ECU was a good idea, and hopefully has dragged the sport away from being mainly directed towards Honda's abstruse engineering philosophies and objectives.
Sure Honda had the biggest writeoff to make as a result of the spec ECU & software introduction and their bike redesign effort is still ongoing.

And yet hardly anyone disputes that the control ECU was a good idea.

The bald facts are that no satellite rider won on a Bridgestone control tyre, and non-Honda and Yamaha manufacturers became less competitive. As I have just said, electronics may well have been what was most important in all of that, but those manufacturers and even Honda themselves at one stage specifically found the lack of variety/unsuitability to their bikes of the control tyre to be problematic, and even world championship winning Honda and Yamaha factory riders (of the less popular variety) complained similarly on occasion.
If custom electronics were the most important cause of the Honda/Yamaha domination, well..they're gone now. And if the list of entities with complaints against the control tyre situation includes Honda & various champion riders, that's all the more evidence of a leveling of the playing field.
 
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'Left out' not in terms of not getting any suppliers but in terms of influence in tyre development. Unless in the past, Suzuki & Kawasaki got as much as Ducati with Bridgestone or Honda/Yamaha with Michelin.

And do you honestly believe that is not the case today?

Do you feel that KTM have as much influence today as does HRC, or that Karel Abraham has as much influence as Yamaha?





In the golden era of the sport, 1985-1995 decade, all races were won by the Yamaha and Honda factory teams along with Schwantz (plus two anomalous Cagiva wins).

And like I said before about the 2016 season, the race results at Assen and (to some extent) Brno can be chalked up to the weather but the Silverstone, Phillip Island, Red Bull Ring & Sepang race all resulted in clean wins with no unusual weather conditions. The series' tyre transition played a factor. As it did in 2007-08, when the most of the field was in the process of making an unsurprising (if, in certain cases, expedited) move to Bridgestones.

History aside, do you believe that Stoner/Marquez would have been incapable of winning races on the current Ducati, or Vinales/Lorenzo on the current Suzuki? If so, then I'll concede that spec tyres have crippled the competitiveness of Ducati, Suzuki & the rest. But if not, then clearly the critical difference is the rider.

So while there's obviously room to extract that additional two tenths in development, what the smaller teams need to fight for the podium on a regular basis is an 'alien' rider rather than a tyre supplier taking its cues from someone else's alien rider.

PI is an anomoly because the title was won and it was obvious that Marquez had gone to win or bin mode ................ let us not forget that he was comfortably in front at the time of the crash.

As for the rest, I still say anomoly until additional data is received as last year was the first year on the new rubber, thus one year does not make a measurable sample as if it does, then does one race make a sample?

And again, please refer to history where smaller teams (Ducati) have worked with a manufacturer that was not the 'in demand' manufacturer to develop a product that worked, in fact it worked to such an extent it effectively changed the sport which we will likely not see again until we have multiple suppliers (be that tyre, electronics etc)

And FWIW show me where I say that spec tyres have crippled the competition (or is this your goal posts being moved once more?) as what I state, and have history to support me is that have competition with suppliers can readily increase competitiveness, often above and beyond that which otherwise may occur.

BTW, what is your Dorna role?
 
And do you honestly believe that is not the case today?

Do you feel that KTM have as much influence today as does HRC, or that Karel Abraham has as much influence as Yamaha?







PI is an anomoly because the title was won and it was obvious that Marquez had gone to win or bin mode ................ let us not forget that he was comfortably in front at the time of the crash.

As for the rest, I still say anomoly until additional data is received as last year was the first year on the new rubber, thus one year does not make a measurable sample as if it does, then does one race make a sample?

And again, please refer to history where smaller teams (Ducati) have worked with a manufacturer that was not the 'in demand' manufacturer to develop a product that worked, in fact it worked to such an extent it effectively changed the sport which we will likely not see again until we have multiple suppliers (be that tyre, electronics etc)

And FWIW show me where I say that spec tyres have crippled the competition (or is this your goal posts being moved once more?) as what I state, and have history to support me is that have competition with suppliers can readily increase competitiveness, often above and beyond that which otherwise may occur.

BTW, what is your Dorna role?
Wayne Rainey started on Dunlops with the Kenny Roberts team which was not the factory team at the time.

Beattie won races on a Suzuki. (Edit Kocinski won for Cagiva which I didn't need to google, and Barros won a race for Suzuki which I had forgotten)

One Suzuki or Ducati etc win every 7 years is a reasonable strike rate given the resources of Honda and Yamaha, and is better than none in 10 years as it will be at the end of this season.

(Further EDIT Yamaha and Honda privateer wins 1985-1995 many of which I remember, Sarron Gauloises Yamaha 1, Mamola Lucky Strike Yamaha 4, Magee Lucky Strike Yamaha 1, Wayne Rainey Lucky Strike Yamaha 4, Chili HB Honda1, Puig Fortuna Honda 1).

So that is only about 17 wins in addition to Lawson's 2 for Cagiva, including 3 by Suzuki riders and 2 additional Cagiva wins, with Rainey having 2nd and 3rd place finishes and Beattie a 2nd place finish in the championship.
 
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Money that ought not to be missed. If tyre sponsorship helps make up the difference, well and good.


The transition to the control tyre didn't cost the manufacturers anything. All of them were either running Bridgestones or were transitioning to Bridgestones at the time.

There was an adjustment required after the series switched to Michelin but the new tyre contract with Michelin is undoubted far more lucrative for the series than the lapsed one with Bridgestone.

For this season Dorna subsidies (up 30%) cover almost the entire cost of the annual bike lease for the satellite teams (with team sponsors required only to meet operating costs).


Sure Honda had the biggest writeoff to make as a result of the spec ECU & software introduction and their bike redesign effort is still ongoing.

And yet hardly anyone disputes that the control ECU was a good idea.


If custom electronics were the most important cause of the Honda/Yamaha domination, well..they're gone now. And if the list of entities with complaints against the control tyre situation includes Honda & various champion riders, that's all the more evidence of a leveling of the playing field.
Again, are you familiar with the concept of orders of magnitude, the difference between the possible cost benefit to the sport of the "free" tyres vs the cost to the manufacturers of redesigning/re-engineering their bikes, and the problem was the Bridgestone control tyre changing, sometimes capriciously, and presenting insufficient options, not which teams were with Bridgestone or transitioning to Bridgestone in the non-control era. I don't dispute the control tyre reduces costs for Dorna, btw.

I believe the list of world champions who did get the tyre they wanted is more significant than the list of those who didn't, also btw.

I actually understand passionate defence of Rossi, but passionate/dogged defence of Dorna is rather more unusual, and perhaps confers a unique distinction on you.
 
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And do you honestly believe that is not the case today?
I know that Rossi (the most influential rider in the sport in the modern era) was unhappy with his tyres in the pre-season and Michelin still persisted with the existing compound because he was the only one who had problems with it. Not something I can imagine happening in the tyre war days. Bridgestone in '08 was committed to meeting (then champion) Stoner's wishes, in 2012 they overlooked the (then champion) Stoner's wishes because he was in a minority.

Come to think of it, if, as Michael argues, the Ducati's problems with the frameless chassis could have been rectified with a suitable tyre - there was nobody better placed than Rossi to secure it for them when he was contracted to Ducati.

Its not a level playing field even today but its certainly better than the exclusivity of open tyre era.

That said, even if control tyres hadn't had that effect, running what is for all practical purposes two control tyres would mean that Dorna would forgo a third of its total sponsorship and 10% of its entire annual revenue. Something that'll have a knockdown effect all the way down the line.

PI is an anomoly because the title was won and it was obvious that Marquez had gone to win or bin mode ................ let us not forget that he was comfortably in front at the time of the crash.

As for the rest, I still say anomoly until additional data is received as last year was the first year on the new rubber, thus one year does not make a measurable sample as if it does, then does one race make a sample?
Marquez crashing at Phillip Island had nothing to do with the environment. His riding philosophy is not an anomaly. He would presumably have reverted to win-or-bin mode after securing the title regardless of tyre/weather conditions.

And again, please refer to history where smaller teams (Ducati) have worked with a manufacturer that was not the 'in demand' manufacturer to develop a product that worked, in fact it worked to such an extent it effectively changed the sport which we will likely not see again until we have multiple suppliers (be that tyre, electronics etc)
History also shows that those smaller teams were deprived of their tyre advantage after less than two seasons. And were a tyre war to lead to a repeat of their anomalous advantage, they'd again be stripped of it equally quickly.

And FWIW show me where I say that spec tyres have crippled the competition (or is this your goal posts being moved once more?) as what I state, and have history to support me is that have competition with suppliers can readily increase competitiveness, often above and beyond that which otherwise may occur.
While doing that you ignore the converse of that statement - that the freedom to the field to make their own tyre arrangements will favour those with the influence and/or financial muscle to secure better deals resulting in less competitiveness. And I believe there's bit of a historical precedent to suppliers not just taking direction from prominent riders but also making a better grade of tyre available to them (with their cattle class customers using older tyres).

BTW, what is your Dorna role?
I have no personal or professional relationship with Dorna. I just find that while most people have their vision of an ideal world - *all prototype class, all riders getting their preferred tyres, lots of competitive manufacturers, lots of competitive satellites, no teams forced to run pay riders, no parents forced to sell the house to support the kid, and a classy race environment with no boorish fans & no circus* - the question of who exactly pays for it all is not one that gets a lot of traction here.

I am fairly curious about what the sport would look like with the just the purists paying the bills - I suspect it may look a lot like WSBK, for better or worse.
 
I know that Rossi (the most influential rider in the sport in the modern era) was unhappy with his tyres in the pre-season and Michelin still persisted with the existing compound because he was the only one who had problems with it. Not something I can imagine happening in the tyre war days. Bridgestone in '08 was committed to meeting (then champion) Stoner's wishes, in 2012 they overlooked the (then champion) Stoner's wishes because he was in a minority.

Come to think of it, if, as Michael argues, the Ducati's problems with the frameless chassis could have been rectified with a suitable tyre - there was nobody better placed than Rossi to secure it for them when he was contracted to Ducati.

Its not a level playing field even today but its certainly better than the exclusivity of open tyre era.

That said, even if control tyres hadn't had that effect, running what is for all practical purposes two control tyres would mean that Dorna would forgo a third of its total sponsorship and 10% of its entire annual revenue. Something that'll have a knockdown effect all the way down the line.


Marquez crashing at Phillip Island had nothing to do with the environment. His riding philosophy is not an anomaly. He would presumably have reverted to win-or-bin mode after securing the title regardless of tyre/weather conditions.


History also shows that those smaller teams were deprived of their tyre advantage after less than two seasons. And were a tyre war to lead to a repeat of their anomalous advantage, they'd again be stripped of it equally quickly.


While doing that you ignore the converse of that statement - that the freedom to the field to make their own tyre arrangements will favour those with the influence and/or financial muscle to secure better deals resulting in less competitiveness. And I believe there's bit of a historical precedent to suppliers not just taking direction from prominent riders but also making a better grade of tyre available to them (with their cattle class customers using older tyres).


I have no personal or professional relationship with Dorna. I just find that while most people have their vision of an ideal world - *all prototype class, all riders getting their preferred tyres, lots of competitive manufacturers, lots of competitive satellites, no teams forced to run pay riders, no parents forced to sell the house to support the kid, and a classy race environment with no boorish fans & no circus* - the question of who exactly pays for it all is not one that gets a lot of traction here.

I am fairly curious about what the sport would look like with the just the purists paying the bills - I suspect it may look a lot like WSBK, for better or worse.

Are you implying that anyone has proposed this? The fact that something has been flawed for a period of time doesn't mean people shouldn't strive to improve it. Even when big tobacco was around there was inequity. I think it's safe to say that the folks you've been arguing with are realists.
 
For someone who claims to have been following the sport for 4 - 5 years you do seem to feel as if you know a lot ....... so out with it ........ who are you really?


Marquez crashing at Phillip Island had nothing to do with the environment. His riding philosophy is not an anomaly. He would presumably have reverted to win-or-bin mode after securing the title regardless of tyre/weather conditions.

Never said it did but you wish to use PI as an example of competitiveness because a satellite bike won whereas I am pointing out the anomoly in that yes, a satellite won but only after Marquez crashed out as a result of already having wrapped up the title. It needs to be looked at in terms that he had not crashed all year, wrapped up the title, then started to crash due to a change of approach, thus for me is is as much an anomoly that a Satellite bike won that race as was Miller and others (without dismissing the job done by that satellite team).

To simplify, I strongly suspect that were the championship still to be decided, Marquez (and others) may have raced differently (which may have enhanced the satellite bike possibility as Cal does well at PI)


History also shows that those smaller teams were deprived of their tyre advantage after less than two seasons. And were a tyre war to lead to a repeat of their anomalous advantage, they'd again be stripped of it equally quickly.

Yes and no.

Ducati lost their advantage because people whinged, whined and wanted to (in their minds) be immediately competitive with those people believing the tyres were the reason that they had lost competitiveness.

Now, this might be true, but as is widely known, on announcement that Rossi and Pedrosa were heading to Bridgestone and seeing the writing on the wall, Ducati approached Michelin with regards to working with MIchelin to be their tyre supplier. So yes, they lost the Brdigestone advantage but quite reasonably may well have picked up a Michelin advantage were they allowed to swap (again, less people to concentrate on could well have helped Michelin develop a great tyre ............... sadly, we shall never know)


While doing that you ignore the converse of that statement - that the freedom to the field to make their own tyre arrangements will favour those with the influence and/or financial muscle to secure better deals resulting in less competitiveness. And I believe there's bit of a historical precedent to suppliers not just taking direction from prominent riders but also making a better grade of tyre available to them (with their cattle class customers using older tyres).

Show me where I ignore it?

This is likely happening today anyway where those with more financial clout are able to change their bikes more readily to try to accommodate these spec tyres of which you seem so keen, and yet I do not seen your concern about that flow on effect.

HRC and others have publically commented across years that changing the tyres to suit their bikes is cheaper than changing their bikes to suit the tyres, which are everchanging.

Swings and roundabouts, although you only seem concerned with one half of the equation as if the cost to develop the bike increases at HRC, then the teams further down the pecking order will feel it as well due to increase leased costs or even, simply not accepting their 'place'


I have no personal or professional relationship with Dorna. I just find that while most people have their vision of an ideal world - *all prototype class, all riders getting their preferred tyres, lots of competitive manufacturers, lots of competitive satellites, no teams forced to run pay riders, no parents forced to sell the house to support the kid, and a classy race environment with no boorish fans & no circus* - the question of who exactly pays for it all is not one that gets a lot of traction here.

Wrong again as the cost of the sport is often discussed here so suggest that you use the forum search button to research as the chatter is often there.

It may not be a separate thread or a full in depth discussion but the costs of ongoing development to suit the everchanging rules/regulations cops a mention, as does the cost of involvement (ie. buying a ride, getting a team etc)

As for the purists, we have seen many a paid rider but far more paying riders across the years in their own teams and often as their own mechanics. We have also seen years, decades even of two dominant manufacturers whilst other upstarts occasionally come along to upset the applecart of HRC/Yamaha (Suzuki, Ducati and of course non-Factory teams of yesteryear with quality riders).

You do seem to wish to be a little condescending in the quoted part above, which is all well and good but I suggest that you do not dismiss the purists thoughts as google is no substitute for experience and longevity of support as it is but two dimensional where many purists have experienced the 3 dimensional. To dismiss purists is to dismiss the likes of Jeremey Burgess' opinion because he comes from old school, or that of any number of riders, fans, officials, technicians or others with vast levels of experience in the paddock of motorcycle racing.


I am fairly curious about what the sport would look like with the just the purists paying the bills - I suspect it may look a lot like WSBK, for better or worse.

Interesting that you mention WSBk as where once it was a glorious product, it does seem to have gone dramatically downhill in spectacle terms. Even more interestingly, the downhill slide seems to have started around when DORNA took over (via Bridgepoint) in 2013.

However MotoGP (or motorcycle grands prix as it was before the 4 stroke era) did alright for a lot of years and would do so again as purists can move with the times (social media being a prime example) but also recognise the benefits of not losing
sight of that which has been successful in the past to generate and encourage competition.

You can be as condescending as you wish but history shows that competition in all markets can work, just as history shows that monopolies in markets often do not work (reverse can be seen in examples as well but are rarer).


But I will tell you this, your and my opinions will not meet a mutually agreeable middle ground as I am obviously to 'purist' and thus unable to move with the times but I am (as Kesh suggests) a realist when it comes to this sport and know full well that there will never be an equitable existence for those involved.
 
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For someone who claims to have been following the sport for 4 - 5 years you do seem to feel as if you know a lot ....... so out with it ........ who are you really?




Never said it did but you wish to use PI as an example of competitiveness because a satellite bike won whereas I am pointing out the anomoly in that yes, a satellite won but only after Marquez crashed out as a result of already having wrapped up the title. It needs to be looked at in terms that he had not crashed all year, wrapped up the title, then started to crash due to a change of approach, thus for me is is as much an anomoly that a Satellite bike won that race as was Miller and others (without dismissing the job done by that satellite team).

To simplify, I strongly suspect that were the championship still to be decided, Marquez (and others) may have raced differently (which may have enhanced the satellite bike possibility as Cal does well at PI)




Yes and no.

Ducati lost their advantage because people whinged, whined and wanted to (in their minds) be immediately competitive with those people believing the tyres were the reason that they had lost competitiveness.

Now, this might be true, but as is widely known, on announcement that Rossi and Pedrosa were heading to Bridgestone and seeing the writing on the wall, Ducati approached Michelin with regards to working with MIchelin to be their tyre supplier. So yes, they lost the Brdigestone advantage but quite reasonably may well have picked up a Michelin advantage were they allowed to swap (again, less people to concentrate on could well have helped Michelin develop a great tyre ............... sadly, we shall never know)




Show me where I ignore it?

This is likely happening today anyway where those with more financial clout are able to change their bikes more readily to try to accommodate these spec tyres of which you seem so keen, and yet I do not seen your concern about that flow on effect.

HRC and others have publically commented across years that changing the tyres to suit their bikes is cheaper than changing their bikes to suit the tyres, which are everchanging.

Swings and roundabouts, although you only seem concerned with one half of the equation as if the cost to develop the bike increases at HRC, then the teams further down the pecking order will feel it as well due to increase leased costs or even, simply not accepting their 'place'




Wrong again as the cost of the sport is often discussed here so suggest that you use the forum search button to research as the chatter is often there.

It may not be a separate thread or a full in depth discussion but the costs of ongoing development to suit the everchanging rules/regulations cops a mention, as does the cost of involvement (ie. buying a ride, getting a team etc)

As for the purists, we have seen many a paid rider but far more paying riders across the years in their own teams and often as their own mechanics. We have also seen years, decades even of two dominant manufacturers whilst other upstarts occasionally come along to upset the applecart of HRC/Yamaha (Suzuki, Ducati and of course non-Factory teams of yesteryear with quality riders).

You do seem to wish to be a little condescending in the quoted part above, which is all well and good but I suggest that you do not dismiss the purists thoughts as google is no substitute for experience and longevity of support as it is but two dimensional where many purists have experienced the 3 dimensional. To dismiss purists is to dismiss the likes of Jeremey Burgess' opinion because he comes from old school, or that of any number of riders, fans, officials, technicians or others with vast levels of experience in the paddock of motorcycle racing.




Interesting that you mention WSBk as where once it was a glorious product, it does seem to have gone dramatically downhill in spectacle terms. Even more interestingly, the downhill slide seems to have started around when DORNA took over (via Bridgepoint) in 2013.

However MotoGP (or motorcycle grands prix as it was before the 4 stroke era) did alright for a lot of years and would do so again as purists can move with the times (social media being a prime example) but also recognise the benefits of not losing
sight of that which has been successful in the past to generate and encourage competition.

You can be as condescending as you wish but history shows that competition in all markets can work, just as history shows that monopolies in markets often do not work (reverse can be seen in examples as well but are rarer).


But I will tell you this, your and my opinions will not meet a mutually agreeable middle ground as I am obviously to 'purist' and thus unable to move with the times but I am (as Kesh suggests) a realist when it comes to this sport and know full well that there will never be an equitable existence for those involved.

The condescension from a position of ignorance about matters not even personally observed is a little rich, as is the seeming assumption that people with whom you disagree must necessarily be completely biased/have made things up about past events. I have yet to see any interest from JKant about anything anyone else has to say, nor any change in position on any topic despite all evidence, and precious little evidence for his own predetermined/fixed positions on pretty much anything, just pettifogging attempts to dispute minor elements in the arguments of others on the basis of selective googling.

I will give him credit for gall/front however, for re-appearing so so soon after arguing that the 500 "golden era" was no different than the Bridgestone control tyre era in terms of riders other than factory Yamaha and Honda riders winning races, given there were 19 wins including 4 by Cagiva riders, and 3 by Suzuki riders other than Kevin Schwartz apart from his 25 Suzuki wins which JKant conveniently excludes. As opposed to Stoner at Ducati, who won far fewer races once the control tyre came in, Schwantz's were spread across his career, and he won his title in his second last year of full competition before injury finally curtailed his career.
 
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(Further EDIT Yamaha and Honda privateer wins 1985-1995 many of which I remember, Sarron Gauloises Yamaha 1, Mamola Lucky Strike Yamaha 4, Magee Lucky Strike Yamaha 1, Wayne Rainey Lucky Strike Yamaha 4, Chili HB Honda1, Puig Fortuna Honda 1).

So that is only about 17 wins in addition to Lawson's 2 for Cagiva, including 3 by Suzuki riders and 2 additional Cagiva wins, with Rainey having 2nd and 3rd place finishes and Beattie a 2nd place finish in the championship.

Being pedantic Mike, I would go a minus 1 on the Chili win as it came in the boycotted race where he was said to have been told 'race or you have no ride' (that is the only race Michael Rudroff finished on the podium which is why I remember that one well.

Edit. Should add that the above is not to begrudge Frankie his win in any way
 
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Being pedantic Mike, I would go a minus 1 on the Chili win as it came in the boycotted race where he was said to have been told 'race or you have no ride' (that is the only race Michael Rudroff finished on the podium which is why I remember that one well.

Edit. Should add that the above is not to begrudge Frankie his win in any way

I certainly didn't remember Chili's win and can't have watched that race, but I do remember many of them including Sarron's win.

I "tyred" of statements such as "Motomatters in particular has been a wealth of information that quite often contradicts a lot of what appears to have congealed into a general consensus hearabouts(sic)" and did a little googling myself, and it was actually more wins than I thought, 44 from 1985-1995, as opposed to 7 iirc, all by Stoner, with the Bridgestone control tyre.
 
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I certainly didn't remember Chili's win and can't have watched that race, but I do remember many of them including Sarron's win.

Cannot tell a lie.

I was so cheering Sarron's win as I did kind of like the underdog approach.

Eddie's win, much the same for me as I was cheering for it but also loved the risk he took ........... he gambled and won which was brilliant for him and Cagiva (still one of the sexiest bikes ever in Grands Prix, IMO)



I "tyred" of statements such as "Motomatters in particular has been a wealth of information that quite often contradicts a lot of what appears to have congealed into a general consensus hearanoutd(sic)" and did a little googling myself, and it was actually more wins than I thought, 44 from 1985-1995, as opposed to 7 iirc, all by Stoner, with the Bridgestone control tyre.

44 from 152 or so races for the minor teams (ie. non primary factory teams) is not to bad in an era of non spec tyres (near 30% of races won were run by a minor team) where a manufacturer (or manufacturers) worked with individuals and teams to build suitable product, although I also will admit that some of those wins may have been on 'hand me down' tyres or tyres that were supplied on a 'take it or leave it approach', but still it does show that non-spec seems to produce a greater disparity of result (I did google the total races and counted ......)
 
Cannot tell a lie.

I was so cheering Sarron's win as I did kind of like the underdog approach.

Eddie's win, much the same for me as I was cheering for it but also loved the risk he took ........... he gambled and won which was brilliant for him and Cagiva (still one of the sexiest bikes ever in Grands Prix, IMO)





44 from 152 or so races for the minor teams (ie. non primary factory teams) is not to bad in an era of non spec tyres (near 30% of races won were run by a minor team) where a manufacturer (or manufacturers) worked with individuals and teams to build suitable product, although I also will admit that some of those wins may have been on 'hand me down' tyres or tyres that were supplied on a 'take it or leave it approach', but still it does show that non-spec seems to produce a greater disparity of result (I did google the total races and counted ......)
Sure, all of these things are multifactorial, and I would ascribe most of the things Dorna has done with which I disagree to incompetence more than malevolence.

It is possible that the control tyre rule both was cost saving for Dorna and the satellite teams and that Dorna have used it on occasion as a mechanism to manipulate matters to their own ends.

What I don't believe is that neither Rossi nor Dorna has ever done anything at all questionable, which seem to be JKant's unwavering contentions since his first post on here despite any and all dissenting opinions or evidence.
 
Sure, all of these things are multifactorial, and I would ascribe most of the things Dorna has done with which I disagree to incompetence more than malevolence.

I am of the belief that everything DORNA has done was intended to benefit DORNA firstly and in that I include decisions that they may have made to benefit Rossi (not suggesting that VR has sought the benefit) as, well quite simply, Rossi being at the front means more dollars in the DORNA purse (that was hard to type, I admit :) ).



It is possible that the control tyre rule both was cost saving for Dorna and the satellite teams and that Dorna have used it on occasion as a mechanism to manipulate matters to their own ends.

I believe that control tyres would have been and should have been a cost saving implementation (as opposed to levelling of the playing field), but I also believe that DORNA did not estimate or expect the impact of the change on the need of the manufacturers to constantly change their bikes to suit the tyres, which I suspect has been a higher cost than was or would have been open slather tyre development (just a suspicion).

But totally with you on the manipulation to their benefit ............. but I do wonder whether I should be critical as genuinely, should I have expected anything other than total self interest?


What I don't believe is that neither Rossi nor Dorna has ever done anything at all questionable, which seem to be JKant's unwavering contentions since his first post on here despite any and all dissenting opinions or evidence.

Agreed.
 

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