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lorenzo to leave ducati?

What did I say about reconstructing history by means of google?

Ducati won 4 races in 2006, with 3 of them being won by Loris Capirossi who was well in contention for the championship before crash and injury put him out for several races. Their other factory rider also had injury problems, and the 4th win was famously by their world superbike rider Troy Bayliss who replaced that rider (Sete Gibernau), and who despite unexceptional results when he had ridden for Ducati in motoGP previously managed to just turn up for the last race of the year and dominate that race, leading from the first lap to the finish. So yes their bike itself was rather more competitive in 2006 than it has been in recent years.



When Suzuki returned, they too took the Ducati route and used the marelli ecu. No mention has been made why they aren't knocking on the door for a championship, despite Maverick flattering the bike last year.
I've got a feeling Kant is attempting to manoeuvre the conversation into "the Ducati is a great bike and should be winning a championship, the riders particularly Lorenzo must be really crap if they can't manage it by now".
Interesting too as no mention about Yamaha being supplied and sponsored by Magneti Marelli for many years, see pic of Lorenzo's 2012 machine clearly showing their sponsorship logo. Hardly surprising as Yamaha MotoGp are Italy based and ideally situated for support both in location and language wise.
e0a9b7006be038a24b57adc7a95c003f.jpg

Is it a conspiracy? LOL
 
That looks like Spies bike (based on the racing number) but good pick-up as I had forgotten that Yamaha had a relationship with Magnetti Marelli
 
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That looks like Spies bike (based on the racing number) but good pick-up as I had forgotten that Yamaha had a relationship with Magnetti Marelli



Yeah, good spot Gaz, it was on a page showing the 2012 spec Yamaha's and alll the other pics were of Lorenzo's bike.
It is early in the uk, black coffee time[emoji1]
 
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What are you guys on about ..... Magnetti Marelli is the spec ecu isnt it?

I remember back in 07 the boppers tried to discredit Stoners beating rossi by claiming it was all the electronics ...... closer inspection of the situation revealed that Ducati used Magneti marelli ...... which rossi had been using for years.

They are just a comercially available unit.

what did emerge later was that Stoner indeed used a minmum of electronic aid, as oposed to rossi who could not ride without the aid of all the gismos.
 
The problem with your posts in general is that you are attempting to re-construct history via google with fairly strong preconceptions, and arguing with people, admittedly of course not without bias themselves, who actually observed the events contemporaneously. For the remote events mostly what you seem to be able to find are Dorna press releases which hardly surprisingly don't refelct negatively on Dorna.

You are also arguing (in the case of other posters, not me, I am just a guy with a good memory who likes arguing) with people who have a profound technical knoweldge of the sport, even of how tyres work, but also mechanical matters (several engineers on here), race rules (Gaz has officiated) and race riding.
I've only ever read one or two Dorna releases which I posted here (about the 2012 tyre vote) and I referred to them because there was absolutely nothing else available open source on the topic.

Most of what I've read actually comes from Motomatters, Sportrider, Cycleworld, Crash, Motorsport, MCN, GPone and perhaps one or two others who's name I can't recall. Motomatters in particular has been a wealth of information, that quite often contradicts a lot of what appears to have congealed into a general consensus hearabouts.

I have no idea where one might find a database of Dorna press releases.

You bland assumption that only others are biased and "conspiracy theorists" is comical given you make huge assumptions/draw huge inferences yourself.
You keep saying this but I can't recall calling anyone biased or 'conspiracy theorists', though I have at times called certain arguments as drifting into the realm of conspiracy. My posting history is a few clicks away, feel free to look it up.

That Dorna's whole approach for the last decade or so is justified because in your opinion MM could win on a Ducati and Lorenzo on a Suzuki even though neither has even sat on either bike is a prinme example of tawdry sophistry.
Doesn't say that anywhere in my post. This I believe would be an example of a strawman.

And I'm fairly sure that the idea that Marquez could win on a Ducati has got a fair amount of purchase, here and elsewhere.

Wrt Lorenzo's potential on a Suzuki, while that's just my opinion, I suspect most folks wouldn't find that quite as outlandish as you're making it out to be - given Lorenzo's record & riding style, the GSX-RR's characteristics and the progress/performance demonstrated by Suzuki & Vinales last year.

Ducati didn't reportedly ask to switch to Michelins for 2009, they did ask to switch to Michelin, because unlike you trying to reconstruct history via googled fragments they predicted events and foresaw that the control tyre would disadvantage them; the lead up to it arguably already had as it is strongly rumoured the 2007 tyre which particulary suited their bike was taken away in 2008.
No they reportedly asked to switch to Michelins for 2009. Acc. to Livio Suppo they'd were considering running the satellite Ducatis on Michelins. The idea of running the factory Ducatis on Michelins was reported in the press but never confirmed by the team AFAIK.

The 2009 frameless bike was not designed for the control tyre, it had been in devlopment well before then and was in fact tested by Stoner in mid 2008. The whole issue with the control tyre for ducati was not where it started but that it was progressively developed for the majority of the field which were not frameless L90 bikes, and it was in later years not 2009 with the initial version of the control tyre that they started to attribute their problems to lack of a suitable tyre.
Maybe they ran off-track in terms of their development philosophy.

Part of the reason we have had so much success over the past two years is because we didn’t just fix problems with the tyres. We were running a lot harder compounds that anybody else over the past two years and we made the bike work as much as we could...

I think maybe that’s what the sport was missing; everyone was just throwing tyres at it to fix problems. But something the my team and I have always done is fix the problem rather than the tyres.
- Stoner, 2009

There was a year more recent than 25 years ago, 2006 actually, which had tremendous racing with 7 individual race winners (should have been 8 if KRJR could count) and wins by satellite riders not contingent on weather events or tyre malfunction. 2007 and 2008 also involved a bike which was not a Honda or Yamaha being competitive for the championship, and to reverse your own argument your own boy himself said at the time that he and Stoner would/could have won had they been riding the Honda.
Tremendous season, sure. Better than the last two seasons, in general opinion? Not from what I gather. Comparable perhaps.

As I have said, I think the control ECU was a good initiative, it was coming down to who could spend the most money on computer technicians. The control tyre I opposed from the start and continue to oppose for the many reasons which you choose to ignore.
Not ignoring them at all. I understand the appeal of a customized tyre both in terms of performance and bike development, and i've stated my reasons to oppose them as well -

Two supplier system -> two control tyres. Part of the field locked into one, the remainder into the other. Development direction determined by only the top riders. No supplier contracts with Dorna, negligible Dorna subsidies to the satellites.
 
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What are you guys on about ..... Magnetti Marelli is the spec ecu isnt it?

I remember back in 07 the boppers tried to discredit Stoners beating rossi by claiming it was all the electronics ...... closer inspection of the situation revealed that Ducati used Magneti marelli ...... which rossi had been using for years.

They are just a comercially available unit.

what did emerge later was that Stoner indeed used a minmum of electronic aid, as oposed to rossi who could not ride without the aid of all the gismos.



Another good shout Baz, I was just making a point that even though the spec ecu is now in force, Yamaha used them as well from years back.
 
What did I say about reconstructing history by means of google?
That its bad. Also, I should perhaps stay away from libraries? Seriously though, aside from information that's transmitted verbally and therefore inaccessible, I see no reason to think that historical records available on the internet would in any way degrade with time.

Ducati won 4 races in 2006, with 3 of them being won by Loris Capirossi who was well in contention for the championship before crash and injury put him out for several races. Their other factory rider also had injury problems, and the 4th win was famously by their world superbike rider Troy Bayliss who replaced that rider (Sete Gibernau), and who despite unexceptional results when he had ridden for Ducati in motoGP previously managed to just turn up for the last race of the year and dominate that race, leading from the first lap to the finish. So yes their bike itself was rather more competitive in 2006 than it has been in recent years.
Capirossi competed against a field consisting of Rossi, Hayden, Melandri & Edwards (Pedrosa, Stoner & Vermuelen still being rookies).

Dovizioso & Iannone, in contrast, were pitted against Lorenzo, Rossi, Marquez, Pedrosa & Vinales with 22 FIM world championships between them. And they had a fair bit of bad luck themselves, with Dovizioso's wipeouts and Iannone's fractured vertebra.
 
Another good shout Baz, I was just making a point that even though the spec ecu is now in force, Yamaha used them as well from years back.
Magneti-Marelli supplied Yamaha with an ECU that was similar to its spec ECUs. Yamaha developed and ran its own software.
 
That its bad. Also, I should perhaps stay away from libraries? Seriously though, aside from information that's transmitted verbally and therefore inaccessible, I see no reason to think that historical records available on the internet would in any way degrade with time.


Capirossi competed against a field consisting of Rossi, Hayden, Melandri & Edwards (Pedrosa, Stoner & Vermuelen still being rookies).

Dovizioso & Iannone, in contrast, were pitted against Lorenzo, Rossi, Marquez, Pedrosa & Vinales with 22 FIM world championships between them. And they had a fair bit of bad luck themselves, with Dovizioso's wipeouts and Iannone's fractured vertebra.



In a topsy turvy season of new tyres AND spec ecu, combined with quite unusual weather conditions. All contributed to last seasons results. Don't forget Ducati still had aero too!
This year the big factories have had time to sort things, usual domination is likely to return.
 
Magneti-Marelli supplied Yamaha with an ECU that was similar to its spec ECUs. Yamaha developed and ran its own software.



Understood, my point being that Yamaha will have no problem getting their point across exactly what they want in the ecu (within the rules). HRC and other newcomers to MM however may not be quite so successful in their communications.
 
Understood, my point being that Yamaha will have no problem getting their point across exactly what they want in the ecu (within the rules). HRC and other newcomers to MM however may not be quite so successful in their communications.

And, did not Yamaha run Forward Yamaha in the Open class, thus they had access to the spec ECU ?





If, as the point has been raised and seems to be, Ducati had access as part of the (failed) Open class, then the same applies to Yamaha (although my point remains, one year experience does not mean expert nor perfection, and nor does it mean year on year is the same)
 
That its bad. Also, I should perhaps stay away from libraries? Seriously though, aside from information that's transmitted verbally and therefore inaccessible, I see no reason to think that historical records available on the internet would in any way degrade with time.


Capirossi competed against a field consisting of Rossi, Hayden, Melandri & Edwards (Pedrosa, Stoner & Vermuelen still being rookies).

Dovizioso & Iannone, in contrast, were pitted against Lorenzo, Rossi, Marquez, Pedrosa & Vinales with 22 FIM world championships between them. And they had a fair bit of bad luck themselves, with Dovizioso's wipeouts and Iannone's fractured vertebra.
I have never argued that your view of current events is invalid because you have started following the sport relatively recently, it is entirely possible for a new observer to have a fresh perspective, be less biased or even be smarter than longer term observers of most phenomena, although I see no evidence of any of these things in your particular case in regard to GP bike racing. It is your arguments with which I take issue, quite frequently as it happens.

My point was that googling the point score for the 2006 season is not the same as having followed the season at the time and actually watched the races. I am no digital native as I have made abundantly clear, but am sufficiently informed to know that Google works in mysterious ways , and particularly so in regard to more remote events. Even though Ben passed this site on, it still comes up near the top when you enter " MotoGP forum" onto a search engine in many places on any device, for instance.

More tawdry sophistry in regard to the level of competition in 2006, the competition can always only be whoever turns up, and in any case the same line can be taken through Valentino Rossi, who was then absolutely in his prime and not 38, as those of your ilk do in reverse now, the field contained a former world champion in KRJR and a guy who became world champion that year in Hayden, Pedrosa was at least as competitive that year as he has been in most subsequent years and particularly in recent years etc, etc.
 
Capirossi competed against a field consisting of Rossi, Hayden, Melandri & Edwards (Pedrosa, Stoner & Vermuelen still being rookies).

Dovizioso & Iannone, in contrast, were pitted against Lorenzo, Rossi, Marquez, Pedrosa & Vinales with 22 FIM world championships between them. And they had a fair bit of bad luck themselves, with Dovizioso's wipeouts and Iannone's fractured vertebra.

So a question.

Is your point here (in the above) to claim that Capirossi's 2006 performance is somewhat lesser because he was competing against the field you highlight complete with the allowances for rookie year when compared to the Ducati performance of 2016 due to the field having more titles and thus 2016 being more competitive?
 
In which case you need to define recent when posting or making an argument/discussion as I remain steadfast that the ECU was not the biggest imposition that has cost Ducati, thus I remain with ........ in response.

If you now wish to have the goalposts moved so that they are within your definition of recent, well then I would still likely not go with Spec ECU but again go tyres.
Fine, we'll define anything within the last two decades as recent - consider my statement retracted.

Again ........ experience

Just because item A is present this year does not mean that item A remain untouched next year and as far as DORNA go, next week even.
The ECU software development has been frozen. And in any case, none of this in any way contradicts the fact that the introduction of the spec ECU favored Ducati over Yamaha and in particular, Honda.

Except that they were twice as far behind their higher ranking competitors in the constructors title.

Now sure, third one year and third 10 years later could say lack of improvement or development, but now I suggest you revisit what has been removed from Ducati and assess again and you may see that what they achieved in 2016 was actually quite remarkable in many ways.
Similar points total. Same number of podiums (unless you include Redding's). Only two wins to four in '06. But all against a vastly more experienced and capable field. On spec tyres & electronics.

Ducati's record last wasn't just an outcome of research in winglet - it was a genuinely good bike - delivering podium pace at all circuits except for two or three. And the GP15 (with smaller winglets) wasn't a long way off.

And if they can develop that once, they can develop one suitable for the new rule structure. They're not that far off in pace anyway having already scored a podium.

Disagree.
Capirossi did quite well on tyre 990cc/tyre combination and were it not for injury/crashes would have produced better in 2006 (IMO - and I say that as someone who does not like Capirossi over the Harada incident - google it as it was before your time).

And no again on the second point, he has quit and is off riding mountain bikes with Toby Price
Iannone & Dovizioso have done quite well too - one can't stop crashing and other lacks breakaway pace & maybe a bit of aggression. But they're both good riders overall.

Neither of them is a Stoner however. And that's a void that cannot be substituted with tyres.

Hard to say as both of those factories did not hang around long after the rules changes and gfc

Not the point ........... but I see moving goal posts.

As a fact, Stoner did not retire in 2007 so the rest is hypothetical so to play it a little - Bridgestone were strongly 'encouraged' to bring Rossi onboard because he wanted it (or as you put it, demanded) but they chose not to allow Pedrosa - why?

The answer is obvious.
Pedrosa requested a switch after Brno and HRC got him a Bridgestones supply mid-season. Rossi had already proven competitive on them and they had data from the Gresini team that had been running them with the RCV.

In any case, Bridgestone's basic motivations - despite knuckling down under pressure from Ezpeleta - didn't change.

I say this because the way you described them, they came off as some sort of sporting organisation with altruistic motives assisting the 'smaller manufacturers' perhaps driven by love of sport or competition or to support the underdog.

Bridgestone were there to beat Michelin and win races/score podiums, nothing more. They had no personal attachment to Stoner.

The basic point being - in the context of the open tyre/control tyre - the smaller manufacturers or teams hoping to make up their performance deficit with customized tyres have little to offer a tyre supplier. Anything else is a temporary aberration - the top teams & riders were running Michelins in previous years only because they believed the Michelins were the best. When Bridgestone shod bikes began prevailing, it was merely resetting the system. That the top teams would start getting them was inevitable - Ezpeleta merely expedited the process. HRC was just as capable of twisting arms to get Pedrosa a Bridgestone contract for at least 2009.

The power in the paddock has been where it has been since 1999, never shifted elsewhere and it never will.
In 1999, Rossi was still a ways from being Dorna's golden boy. And while he may be the influential of the riders, it isn't level playing field for the rest of the grid. Someone like Stoner was always bound to have far far more influence than a Vermuelen or De Puniet.
 
I've only ever read one or two Dorna releases which I posted here (about the 2012 tyre vote) and I referred to them because there was absolutely nothing else available open source on the topic.

Most of what I've read actually comes from Motomatters, Sportrider, Cycleworld, Crash, Motorsport, MCN, GPone and perhaps one or two others who's name I can't recall. Motomatters in particular has been a wealth of information, that quite often contradicts a lot of what appears to have congealed into a general consensus hearabouts.

I have no idea where one might find a database of Dorna press releases.


You keep saying this but I can't recall calling anyone biased or 'conspiracy theorists', though I have at times called certain arguments as drifting into the realm of conspiracy. My posting history is a few clicks away, feel free to look it up.


Doesn't say that anywhere in my post. This I believe would be an example of a strawman.

And I'm fairly sure that the idea that Marquez could win on a Ducati has got a fair amount of purchase, here and elsewhere.

Wrt Lorenzo's potential on a Suzuki, while that's just my opinion, I suspect most folks wouldn't find that quite as outlandish as you're making it out to be - given Lorenzo's record & riding style, the GSX-RR's characteristics and the progress/performance demonstrated by Suzuki & Vinales last year.


No they reportedly asked to switch to Michelins for 2009. Acc. to Livio Suppo they'd were considering running the satellite Ducatis on Michelins. The idea of running the factory Ducatis on Michelins was reported in the press but never confirmed by the team AFAIK.


Maybe they ran off-track in terms of their development philosophy.

Part of the reason we have had so much success over the past two years is because we didn’t just fix problems with the tyres. We were running a lot harder compounds that anybody else over the past two years and we made the bike work as much as we could...

I think maybe that’s what the sport was missing; everyone was just throwing tyres at it to fix problems. But something the my team and I have always done is fix the problem rather than the tyres.
- Stoner, 2009


Tremendous season, sure. Better than the last two seasons, in general opinion? Not from what I gather. Comparable perhaps.


Not ignoring them at all. I understand the appeal of a customized tyre both in terms of performance and bike development, and i've stated my reasons to oppose them as well -

Two supplier system -> two control tyres. Part of the field locked into one, the remainder into the other. Development direction determined by only the top riders. No supplier contracts with Dorna, negligible Dorna subsidies to the satellites.
QED
 
I have never argued that your view of current events is invalid because you have started following the sport relatively recently, it is entirely possible for a new observer to have a fresh perspective, be less biased or even be smarter than longer term observers of most phenomena, although I see no evidence of any of these things in your particular case in regard to GP bike racing. It is your arguments with which I take issue, quite frequently as it happens.

My point was that googling the point score for the 2006 season is not the same as having followed the season at the time and actually watched the races. I am no digital native as I have made abundantly clear, but am sufficiently informed to know that Google works in mysterious ways , and particularly so in regard to more remote events. Even though Ben passed this site on, it still comes up near the top when you enter " MotoGP forum" onto a search engine in many places on any device, for instance.
I suppose you'll be pleased to know that among the many new technological leaps in the recent past (define that as you will) include digital access to old videos including motorcycle races. Off-season subscriptions to motogp available to all and sundry. Low cost. Computer & broadband connection, a must. Spread the word.

(And no I didn't know the results beforehand, when I watched them, so I don't really mind not having watched it live.)

More tawdry sophistry in regard to the level of competition in 2006, the competition can always only be whoever turns up, and in any case the same line can be taken through Valentino Rossi, who was then absolutely in his prime and not 38, as those of your ilk do in reverse now, the field contained a former world champion in KRJR and a guy who became world champion that year in Hayden, Pedrosa was at least as competitive that year as he has been in most subsequent years and particularly in recent years etc, etc.
Marquez & Vinales are in their prime. And KRJr & Hayden, while good riders, were never in the class of the current field of veterans - Rossi, Lorenzo & Pedrosa.
 
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So a question.

Is your point here (in the above) to claim that Capirossi's 2006 performance is somewhat lesser because he was competing against the field you highlight complete with the allowances for rookie year when compared to the Ducati performance of 2016 due to the field having more titles and thus 2016 being more competitive?
Not at all. My point was that Ducati's performance over the last two years shouldn't be lessened because its riders racked up two fewer wins (but a similar number of podiums) and not as many individual points.

And that point was buttressing this one - that Ducati managed to develop a competitive bike within the then existing regulations (which did give them a modest headstart) and that they'll continue to develop it as competitive bike under the current regulations (which have been a stumbling block).

Final point being that Ducati can not just survive but (with the right rider) thrive without needing a custom tyre to serve as a crutch.

(I don't recall what the debate was before that. Kind of spiralled away.)
 
The ECU software development has been frozen. And in any case, none of this in any way contradicts the fact that the introduction of the spec ECU favored Ducati over Yamaha and in particular, Honda.

Did not Yamaha use Forward racing during the open period as a means to obtain data with regards the ECU (from memory here, not google)?

I still totally disagree with regards to a head start but all good, we can differ as I firmly (and simply) do not agree that things cannot and do not change year on year.

As an example, tyres changing can impact the good work put in to electronics from one week to the next, thus the ECU could theoretically be mooted year on year due to development anyways


Similar points total. Same number of podiums (unless you include Redding's). Only two wins to four in '06. But all against a vastly more experienced and capable field. On spec tyres & electronics.

Same point yes but twice as far behind which clearly shows that the gap had increased which by correlation means that Ducati were not as competitive against the big 2.



Ducati's record last wasn't just an outcome of research in winglet - it was a genuinely good bike - delivering podium pace at all circuits except for two or three. And the GP15 (with smaller winglets) wasn't a long way off.

And if they can develop that once, they can develop one suitable for the new rule structure. They're not that far off in pace anyway having already scored a podium.

Absolutely they can develop one within the current rules ............. and just as absolutely I would expect the rules to change shortly thereafter if it is deemed that Ducati are ahead of the pack with said development.

Scoring a podium is a poor indication of competitiveness - are you going to tell me that Jack Miller was competitive in 2016 ......... I mean, he scored a win so ............



Iannone & Dovizioso have done quite well too - one can't stop crashing and other lacks breakaway pace & maybe a bit of aggression. But they're both good riders overall.

Neither of them is a Stoner however. And that's a void that cannot be substituted with tyres.

IMO here but one is over-rated in that he is yet to stop that crashing so for mine, whilst the second is a very good #2 team man and occasional race winner with impeccable pedigree as a nearly man (no disrespect to him, just that the 'man' is a bit further ahead).

Both will have their good days but not good years (and yes, a deliberate tyre pun there)


Pedrosa requested a switch after Brno and HRC got him a Bridgestones supply mid-season. Rossi had already proven competitive on them and they had data from the Gresini team that had been running them with the RCV.

But was refused ........... why.

The answer is quite simple - that for him to change did not benefit DORNA


In any case, Bridgestone's basic motivations - despite knuckling down under pressure from Ezpeleta - didn't change.

Yes they did (IMO)

They went from a company developing tyres for teams, to a company forced to take on an extra person that they had stated they could not, thus something had to give as Bridgestone had stated that an extra person would stretch their resources ........



I say this because the way you described them, they came off as some sort of sporting organisation with altruistic motives assisting the 'smaller manufacturers' perhaps driven by love of sport or competition or to support the underdog.

Bridgestone were there to beat Michelin and win races/score podiums, nothing more. They had no personal attachment to Stoner.

Absolutely Bridgestone were there for race wins and title wins should they come along ........ else, why the .... be involved.

They may not have had an association with Stoner but it was Ducati and Stoner's results that precipitated the demands from Rossi as he felt that they produced the better tyre (2007 season bought Bridgestone to the fore, little talk prior).

Ergo, without Stoner and Ducati their tyres were crap as the demand did not come at seasons end 2006 after Rossi was beaten and Ducati performed well, but after he was beaten again by a bike and rider who were not considered as threats earlier in the year. As was reported by many media at the time (google it) the feeling was that Stoner was not the difference but electronics and tyres, so naturally, riders wanted that edge.



The basic point being - in the context of the open tyre/control tyre - the smaller manufacturers or teams hoping to make up their performance deficit with customized tyres have little to offer a tyre supplier. Anything else is a temporary aberration - the top teams & riders were running Michelins in previous years only because they believed the Michelins were the best. When Bridgestone shod bikes began prevailing, it was merely resetting the system. That the top teams would start getting them was inevitable - Ezpeleta merely expedited the process. HRC was just as capable of twisting arms to get Pedrosa a Bridgestone contract for at least 2009.

We differ again and have already been there.

I genuinely feel that a tyre company working with a 'lesser' team has huge potential to produce results that showcase the potential of the factory and products as through close development with a smaller number of teams, the opportunities for collaboration increases. You feel the opposite and prefer spec as it is, all well and good.

BTW, it was not Bridgestone bikes , but a Bridgestone shod bike that changed the perception of the 'stones and Ezpeleta 'pushed' that specific allowances be made by Bridgestone


In 1999, Rossi was still a ways from being Dorna's golden boy. And while he may be the influential of the riders, it isn't level playing field for the rest of the grid. Someone like Stoner was always bound to have far far more influence than a Vermuelen or De Puniet.

BS

Rossi was annointed from his days in the 125cc both based on talent and persona.

He was what DORNA wanted to remove themselves from the era of hard nosed racers who were there to race and instead lead them into an era of social media driven personality laden media savvy individuals who were no longer racers, but brands.

Rossi entered the 500cc class in a team that was satellite in name only - google and review or quite simply, search for Arrib's posts on the subject.
 
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And that point was buttressing this one - that Ducati managed to develop a competitive bike within the then existing regulations (which did give them a modest headstart) and that they'll continue to develop it as competitive bike under the current regulations (which have been a stumbling block).

But have they developed a competitive bike and if so, by what standards?

They are not competitive week in, week out and still finished twice as far behind in the points as they did in 2006.

Yes on one hand that may look more competitive or as competitive, but on others the points gap increases which is also a sign of dwindling competitiveness (as after all, competitiveness in championship terms is points driven). Yes you can well say they are there abouts so that makes them competitive, but at the end of the season nobody talks of third place, or even second they care only for first and yes, they will say competitive but look at faces, reactions, they want more.



Final point being that Ducati can not just survive but (with the right rider) thrive without needing a custom tyre to serve as a crutch.

Promise.

And yes, Ducati could thrive once again, just as Yamaha, Honda, aprilia, Suzuki and KTM (plus whoever I have forgotten) could all potentially thrive under this spec series.

But the point is, that they cannot readily thrive until they can develop that edge that they so need and to do that, they need a valid choice of componentry, some of which should or could be designed specifically for their needs. Otherwise (to borrow one of your common points), their direction will be led by the top two or three riders (who will not be riding for these 'lesser' teams) who will drive the competitiveness of the top two factories in a direction that DORNA then tries to implement rules to control, causing these 'lesser' teams to go back to the drawing board.

You see, the spec ECU, Tyres etc have not worked yet for these lesser factories as during this entire 'spec ERA, the championships have been Yamaha or HRC only which to me, indicates that we are exactly where we were prior to the spec era ............ a top 2 with others trying their best but now, they cannot do their best as they are not allowed
 
I suppose you'll be pleased to know that among the many new technological leaps in the recent past (define that as you will) include digital access to old videos including motorcycle races. Off-season subscriptions to motogp available to all and sundry. Low cost. Computer & broadband connection, a must. Spread the word.

(And no I didn't know the results beforehand, when I watched them, so I don't really mind not having watched it live.)


Marquez & Vinales are in their prime. And KRJr & Hayden, while good riders, were never in the class of the current field of veterans - Rossi, Lorenzo & Pedrosa.

You are either ignorant, or guilty of sophistry in regard to the 2006 season, because if you had watched every race on replay you would be aware that the 2006 Ducati was a very competitive bike, for the championship and not just for individual race wins, including against Rossi in his prime on a Yamaha as I said, although your quibbling about the competitiveness of the field was sophistry in the first place as I also said. You are also changing your narrative given in a recent previous post you claimed that the racing was less good in 2006 than in recent seasons because of what you had heard, not what you had seen, and watching races 10 years later with the benefit of hindsight and preconceived notions based on that hindsight rather than in their historical context is not the same as watching them live anyway, and if you are as profound a gp bike racing fan as you claim rather than a Rossi fanboy googling desperately to try to prove the unprovable in defence of your boy you should have been broadly aware of what happened in the 2006 season anyway.

And again in reply to your last several posts, whatever you may care to theorise and whatever you think a control tyre should do, there is absolutely no evidence the Bridgestone control tyre made teams other than the Yamaha and Honda factory teams more competitive, and it remains to be seen whether the Michelin control tyre will do so other than by means of capricious tyre failures.
 

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