Lorenzo to Ducati!

I laugh at all this Lorenzo being so great .........

He has won 3 MotoGP races in one and a half seasons. Both seasons he has been on the best bike on the grid. Sure the first year he was hamstrung by the Michelins. He has fallen off in 3 times as many races as he has won. He has never had to develop a bike. In 250's when he was racing Stoner and Pedrosa they continuously spanked him. He hung around and won 2 championships against zero competition - his only competition was Dovi who regularly pushed him on a proven lesser machine. His post race antics are truely wanna be 46.5! His new manager however is an absolute ....... genius.

Next year will be truely hillarious as Stoner will hand him his arse week in week out. Lorenzo will develop the bike into a piece of .... that Stoner can't even ride. In 2011, Lorenzo will beg for a ride on the Hayate version of the Suzuki. Stoner will go to Honda and will win the next 3 championships in a row.

To sumarise: Ducati will only ever win one championship in MotoGP: 2007!

Double post

According to Motogp website, without hinting as to what the final decision will be Hirsch also stated that confirmation could come next weekend at Indy, with the announcement made by the relevant team. The rider’s manager added that sporting factors would be the key to the decision, commenting, “money is important but it is at the bottom of our list of priorities.”

Lorenzo’s list of priorities
1. Number 1 status
2. Money
That's all.

Who is his manager. He is a big liar!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Goatboy @ Aug 20 2009, 05:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>To go for what is essentially a big (race winning at the least) name like Lorenzo, my feeling is that Stoner is out. I don't believe that Jorge will take anything but top billing anywhere else. & I can't imagine his reaction to ending up in the same position as Capirossi, Melandri & Trick Daddy.

The smart money has always been to stay where he was.

I repeat... he was willing to be #2 under Rossi for bigger bucks - why not at Ducati as well?
If he's willing to give up the most rideable bike in MGP for a bigger payday - then obviously
the money is what he needs to prop up his ego. And besides if he sees himself as being
successful on the Duc - you'd think that he'd enjoy the opportunity to beat the one guy
everyone hails as the only one to tame the beast.

Hirsch commented, “Until the middle of this week we were still ticking off the boxes and finalising the offers. We are getting close to concluding our evaluation of the pros and cons of the offers and we acknowledge that now is the right moment to make a decision.”


Wow... this guy sounds like corporate laywer. Can he make the decision based on the paper!

I am just pasting from another thread because it is more relevant to this one, sorry...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 21 2009, 12:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>WTF

Anyway, if Lorenzo does go to Ducati, I have a question. Will the Rossi boppers (inam & talpa, & co.) finally realize just how extraordinary Stoner is as a rider if Lorenzo goes like Melandri & Hayden? Will they finally say, yup, the Ducati is ....? Or will they still hold to their crazy idea that somehow the Ducati had some special clairvoyant power gifted to Stoner?

I will be a bopper all you want Jumks… but I insist it is just ‘one year’ (not a decade, or even 2 years as you insist). Perhaps Ducati can be shitier than Yamaha as of today (It has wan races this year).But only considering 2007, with the change on rules and cylinders… Ducati got it right, above every other manufacturer, that one year!

Year in which by the way, Yamaha got it wrong, even with engine failures. If we take Ducati, not only Stoner, both out of the equation, Yamaha is not ‘First’ but still behind Honda in the Manufacturer’s Championship. And Yamaha is ‘3rd’, behind Honda and even Suzuki in the Team’s Championship.

So, even if you want to extend that period, it was just that ‘One’ year (2007) when Ducati was better than Yamaha (with facts to prove it).

Now, talking only about Ducati; well yes, Stoner is the ‘Only One’ rider that got the Ducati right. I will give you that one. Meaning that Ducati got ‘One’ year right and only ‘One’ rider got it right. Quite simple.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Aug 21 2009, 03:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>one-upmanship tennis brilliant!

can we all watch?

Easy, can Stoner ‘Boppers’ admit it was just one year?
Nop, did think so.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Aug 21 2009, 08:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I repeat... he was willing to be #2 under Rossi for bigger bucks - why not at Ducati as well?
If he's willing to give up the most rideable bike in MGP for a bigger payday - then obviously
the money is what he needs to prop up his ego. And besides if he sees himself as being
successful on the Duc - you'd think that he'd enjoy the opportunity to beat the one guy
everyone hails as the only one to tame the beast.
Because he was a rookie. Would you rather be the number two rider to vale, casey, or pepe? He had no choice to be a #1 rider before. I can't see him going to duke with casey there either. When one person makes 13 mil and the other 3 or 4 mil there is no doubt who is the #1 rider. Casey would take it as a slap in the face. Ducati next year Jorge & Mika thats what I see. Something must have change since his offer from honda. Maybe it was not for the same amount of money, but a one man team for telefonica was a way better deal than going to be teammates with sour-puss on a bike with turrets. That alone makes me think cs is outie.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BlackKnight @ Aug 21 2009, 03:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If both Hayden and Edwards are going to ride for Yamaha next year - I would have thought that it was highly likely that Rossi would have some say in who will get the factory seat alongside him?

Surely it's more likely that Yamaha will give the factory seat to a rider that has been loyal to them for the last few seasons?
I think Yamaha are happy where Edwards is at. He is on the Yamaha Japan seat in Tech 3, which essentially means he gets trick bits and development duties, just as a factory rider. However, Comparing the MotoGP resumes of Edwards and Hayden I think it would suggest Hayden can provide better cover for Rossi in the Fiat team than Edwards can. Best of both worlds for Yamaha, they get to keep the great developmental skills of Edwards and add a good teammate for Rossi who is (I believe) capable of regular podiums and the odd win aboard a factory M1.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (moto3 @ Aug 21 2009, 07:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Who is his manager. He is a big liar!
I read he's represented by the same guy who represents Carlos Puyol and Andres Iniesta. Money is obviously very important to agents tied up in the world of football.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 20 2009, 07:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>not really earth shattering stuff.

Jumkie, this ‘Non earth shattering stuff’ has been done by exactly how many riders in ‘All’ the History of our beloved Sport? How many that could win back to back Championships? And how many that could win back to back races? With a change of makes in between!

It's definitely very, very impressive stuff. If my memory serves me, the only other rider to win back to back championships on two different makes is Eddie Lawson (or am I spacing?) and I don't believe another rider has won back to back races on two different makes. I'll admit, it's a very impressive feat. The Yamaha wasn't a great motorcycle in 2003, but it wasn't terrible. It's probably something similar to moving to Honda now. Pedrosa is a very fast rider and Dovizioso has been consistent. But if you had two riders similar to Barros and Checa, the results wouldn't be much different from Yamaha's in 2003.

There have been like 3 riders who switched teams after winning the championship in the past 30 years. The most recent two to switch (rossi and Lawson) switched and won.

Mostly, riders don't normally leave championship-winning rides, and teams don't normally give them reason to.

Riders adapt. We've had riders new to the class win their first race, take pole their first time out, etc. - that's a far larger adjustment than just switching makes. It's impressive to switch and win, but the switch part is so rare that it's tough to evaluate the difficulty of "switch + win".

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Aug 22 2009, 01:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Riders adapt. We've had riders new to the class win their first race, take pole their first time out, etc. - that's a far larger adjustment than just switching makes. It's impressive to switch and win, but the switch part is so rare that it's tough to evaluate the difficulty of "switch + win".

Glad you mention that as for mine, one of the feats that remains with me was seeing Biaggi entering 500cc GrandsPrix and beating Doohan in his firt race aboard the beasts. As you say, riders adapt and if as we are led to believe modern technology is sanitising and making these things easier, one could well expext such feats to become more common place





Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Aug 21 2009, 02:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I laugh at all this Lorenzo being so great .........

He has won 3 MotoGP races in one and a half seasons. Both seasons he has been on the best bike on the grid. Sure the first year he was hamstrung by the Michelins. He has fallen off in 3 times as many races as he has won. He has never had to develop a bike. In 250's when he was racing Stoner and Pedrosa they continuously spanked him. He hung around and won 2 championships against zero competition - his only competition was Dovi who regularly pushed him on a proven lesser machine. His post race antics are truely wanna be 46.5! His new manager however is an absolute ....... genius.

Next year will be truely hillarious as Stoner will hand him his arse week in week out. Lorenzo will develop the bike into a piece of .... that Stoner can't even ride. In 2011, Lorenzo will beg for a ride on the Hayate version of the Suzuki. Stoner will go to Honda and will win the next 3 championships in a row.

To sumarise: Ducati will only ever win one championship in MotoGP: 2007!

Two thumbs up -- very refreshing to read.
Never mind the double post, you could have posted this 30 times and still it wouldn't have been too much -- and maybe not enough to make some people see the light

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Aug 21 2009, 06:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Jumkie, this ‘Non earth shattering stuff’ has been done by exactly how many riders in ‘All’ the History of our beloved Sport? How many that could win back to back Championships? And how many that could win back to back races? With a change of makes in between!

1. First of all brotha, this highlights and underscores the importance of tires (now that our history revisionists are in full swing, and apparently Michelin was being blocked by Honda, but Yamaha had no clout? Ask BlackKnight, he's the one saying it).

2. Tell me V. Moving from Yamaha to Honda or vis versa today, is there really a 'earth chattering' difference in performance? I'd say very small. As was in 04. (Again, les you forget one year removed that both brands had equal representation in the top 6, three a piece--the top two being one of each brand no less). So you're gonna try and convince me that Yamaha & Honda were more like switching to a 2nd tier machine like Ducati/Suzuki/Kawasaki? Oh wait, you're still stuck on Ducati winning, right? Hahaha, looking at the Ducatis no ridden by Stoner then you must realize that even Suzuki looks better than Ducati. But you are trying and have been failing to convince me that the 04 switch was like Vale going to a 2nd tier machine. You see buddy, not sure if you can't see what I'm saying here but there is a two fold point. A. Stoner made the difference on a bike that otherwise was very ....... B. To support this, I point to the performance of others on the same or near the same machine.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Aug 21 2009, 11:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Aug 21 2009, 05:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
I laugh at all this Lorenzo being so great .........

He has won 3 MotoGP races in one and a half seasons. Both seasons he has been on the best bike on the grid. Sure the first year he was hamstrung by the Michelins. He has fallen off in 3 times as many races as he has won. He has never had to develop a bike. In 250's when he was racing Stoner and Pedrosa they continuously spanked him. He hung around and won 2 championships against zero competition - his only competition was Dovi who regularly pushed him on a proven lesser machine. His post race antics are truely wanna be 46.5! His new manager however is an absolute ....... genius.


Two thumbs up -- very refreshing to read.
Never mind the double post, you could have posted this 30 times and still it wouldn't have been too much -- and maybe not enough to make some people see the light
I see you have found support for your campaign on vilafying the latest Rossi rival. (Funny, but from an unlikely source too, a Stoner fan no less). Anyway, I thought TP70's post was also very enlightening, but perhaps for different motives as yours. I found myself agreeing with it, just like you. I wonder if you will continue to agree with it once you evalute a bit further...

Keep in mind the following: The theme of TP70's post was: 'Lorenzo is not that special, since his previous success has come on superior machines against his rivals'. Very true, right J4rno? So here is what I can extrapulate from that, perhaps you will also agree with my evaluation. Follow along:

Lorenzo has been easily Rossi's near equal and closest rival this year. (FACT).
Lorenzo has beaten Rossi twice as his two wins indicate. (FACT).
Lorenzo has twice been beaten by Rossi in a spectacular dual to the finish, by mere milli seconds. (FACT).
Lorenzo has crashed from the last two races while leading, so has Rossi, once. (FACT).
Lorenzo's Yamaha is by all accounts a superior package to other rivals, yet not as updated as Rossi's. (FACT).

Now J4rno, with all these facts, what does this say about the rider who is nearest Lorenzo's rival on the "same" (some might say 'slightly better') machine as Lorenzo's? Think now J4rno. Think very hard, take a moment if you need it. You see, we both agree that TP70 made a very insightful post. That is, Lorenzo looks far better than he really is while on superior equipment, right? Interesting don't you think? Especially when you consider that 'not so special' rider is day in day out Rossi's shadow.

I know you and a few reading this will have trouble making the connection; would you like me to spell out a meaningful evaluation to the above facts? Here is some food for thought, perhaps Lorenzo's teammate 'is not that special since his previous success has come on superior machines against his rivals'.

You still agree that Lorenzo is "not that special"?

Lets just throw another statistic into the mix for comparison - for fun only of course

In 2004 Valentino Rossi moved from Honda to Yamaha where his team mate was Carlos Checa, the results of that year are below (16 rounds of the championship).

Rider Championship:
1st. Rossi - 307 points
7th. Checa - 117 points

Constructor Championship:
2nd. Yamaha - 328 points (Honda were first with 355 points)

Team Championship
1st. Gauloise Fortuna Yamaha (Rossi/Checa) - 421 points

Source: - http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/...ld+standing.pdf


Fast forward to 2007 for the comparison where Stoner won on the Ducati (18 rounds of the championship)

Rider Championship:
1st. Stoner - 367 points
7th. Capirossi - 166 points

Constructor Championship:
1st. Ducati - 394 points

Team Championship
1st. Marlboro Ducati (Stoner/Capirossi) - 533 points

Source:- http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/...ld+standing.pdf


Now, why throw this out there?

Glad I asked.

Well (correct me here Jumkie if I am wrong), Jumkie is saying that Stoner made the difference with the Ducati and is an exceptional rider (personally, I agree), whilst others seem hung up with what Rossi achieved in 2004 with Yamaha and say it was a grander achievement. So I thought a few statistics would be in order and this is what I turned up when comparing 2004 with 2007 and of course it leads to some ponderings which of course I have to throw into the mix simply to cause more angst.

The similarities between both years are, for me quite striking as VR/Stoner both won whilst their team-mates were 7th with a similar percentage of points when compared to the title winners (26% for Checa and 32% for Capirossi).

So, is it fair to say that these statistics seem to indicate that if Rossi's year was extrordinary in 2004 for what he achieved with Yamaha who had finished 3rd in the previosu years Conbstructor title, then Stoners was as extrodinary an achievement (Ducati finished 3rd in 2006)?

Is it therefore fair to say that if Rossi was the difference in 2004 (comparison against team and bike results for 2004 and 2003), then the statistics would indicate that Stoner was the difference in 2007 with the same comparison to team and bike results ?

To extrapolate this further, if the 2004 Yamaha inherited by Rossi was 'crap' and he was able to win the title despite of the bike, not because of it, then again the statistics seem to make similar aspersions towards Stoner in 2007.


Discuss away.



Edit: Wasn't sure which thread to post this in so gave up and placed here as it isn;t worth a thread of its own or cross posting across many threads







Gaz

Lorenzo has been easily Rossi's near equal and closest rival this year.
In racing, there isn't the term "near equal", there is only the term BETTER.

Lorenzo has beaten Rossi twice as his two wins indicate. (FACT).
OK.

Lorenzo has twice been beaten by Rossi in a spectacular dual to the finish, by mere milli seconds. (FACT).
One millisecond can show who is WINNER and who is LOSER. I just want that Rossi win races by smallest possible gap. It's enough, and it has been be the biggest blow for his rivals.

Winning by smallest gap is the biggest weapon of Rossi. Here is one interesting article from GPWeek.com: "Win at the slowest possible speed". LINK

and remember that the score is 8-3

Lorenzo has crashed from the last two races while leading, so has Rossi, once. (FACT).
Ha ha crash while leading, what does this mean? In both race he could not keep his calm while leading, then crash under pressure from Rossi. Too bad, especially the crash in Brno.

Lorenzo's Yamaha is by all accounts a superior package to other rivals, yet not as updated as Rossi's. (FACT).
Where is the SOURCE? from Lorenzo: it's true, but from Rossi: it's false. Who do you believe. .

I recall: you are doing masturbation on this forum.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 22 2009, 07:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lorenzo has been easily Rossi's near equal and closest rival this year. (FACT).
Lorenzo has beaten Rossi twice as his two wins indicate. (FACT).
Lorenzo has twice been beaten by Rossi in a spectacular dual to the finish, by mere milli seconds. (FACT).
Lorenzo has crashed from the last two races while leading, so has Rossi, once. (FACT).
Lorenzo's Yamaha is by all accounts a superior package to other rivals, yet not as updated as Rossi's. (FACT).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 22 2009, 01:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lets just throw another statistic into the mix for comparison - for fun only of course

In 2004 Valentino Rossi moved from Honda to Yamaha where his team mate was Carlos Checa, the results of that year are below (16 rounds of the championship).

Rider Championship:
1st. Rossi - 307 points
7th. Checa - 117 points

Constructor Championship:
2nd. Yamaha - 328 points (Honda were first with 355 points)

Team Championship
1st. Gauloise Fortuna Yamaha (Rossi/Checa) - 421 points

Source: - http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/...ld+standing.pdf


Fast forward to 2007 for the comparison where Stoner won on the Ducati (18 rounds of the championship)

Rider Championship:
1st. Stoner - 367 points
7th. Capirossi - 166 points

Constructor Championship:
1st. Ducati - 394 points

Team Championship
1st. Marlboro Ducati (Stoner/Capirossi) - 533 points

Source:- http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/...ld+standing.pdf


Now, why throw this out there?

Glad I asked.

Well (correct me here Jumkie if I am wrong), Jumkie is saying that Stoner made the difference with the Ducati and is an exceptional rider (personally, I agree), whilst others seem hung up with what Rossi achieved in 2004 with Yamaha and say it was a grander achievement. So I thought a few statistics would be in order and this is what I turned up when comparing 2004 with 2007 and of course it leads to some ponderings which of course I have to throw into the mix simply to cause more angst.

The similarities between both years are, for me quite striking as VR/Stoner both won whilst their team-mates were 7th with a similar percentage of points when compared to the title winners (26% for Checa and 32% for Capirossi).

So, is it fair to say that these statistics seem to indicate that if Rossi's year was extrordinary in 2004 for what he achieved with Yamaha who had finished 3rd in the previosu years Conbstructor title, then Stoners was as extrodinary an achievement (Ducati finished 3rd in 2006)?

Is it therefore fair to say that if Rossi was the difference in 2004 (comparison against team and bike results for 2004 and 2003), then the statistics would indicate that Stoner was the difference in 2007 with the same comparison to team and bike results ?

To extrapolate this further, if the 2004 Yamaha inherited by Rossi was 'crap' and he was able to win the title despite of the bike, not because of it, then again the statistics seem to make similar aspersions towards Stoner in 2007.


Discuss away.



Edit: Wasn't sure which thread to post this in so gave up and placed here as it isn;t worth a thread of its own or cross posting across many threads

Great post Gaz. It seems Talpa admitted that the Honda had such an advantage that it could not be "understated". Interesting since he doesn't think Rossi has ever enjoyed any advantages during his title runs. Well your numbers above seem to point to the extraordinary effort that Stoner overcame to claim a title, and with astonishing similarity to Rossi's brand switch. I wonder what angle the detractors will take? If they say that your informative post above shows just how extraordinary Rossi's 04 title is, then they must give Stoner equal accolade (the glaring similarity will be hard to avoid even for the Rossi-blind. If they continue with the argument that Stoner won because of some machine advantage, then that pretty much discounts Rossi's Honda titles; since as Talpa put it, it had such an advantage as to be impossible to "understate"!

I await the SPIN!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 22 2009, 09:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Two thumbs up -- very refreshing to read.
Never mind the double post, you could have posted this 30 times and still it wouldn't have been too much -- and maybe not enough to make some people see the light
I see you have found support for your campaign on vilafying the latest Rossi rival. (Funny, but from an unlikely source too, a Stoner fan no less). Anyway, I thought TP70's post was also very enlightening, but perhaps for different motives as yours. I found myself agreeing with it, just like you. I wonder if you will continue to agree with it once you evalute a bit further...

Keep in mind the following: The theme of TP70's post was: 'Lorenzo is not that special, since his previous success has come on superior machines against his rivals'. Very true, right J4rno? So here is what I can extrapulate from that, perhaps you will also agree with my evaluation. Follow along:

Lorenzo has been easily Rossi's near equal and closest rival this year. (FACT).
Lorenzo has beaten Rossi twice as his two wins indicate. (FACT).
Lorenzo has twice been beaten by Rossi in a spectacular dual to the finish, by mere milli seconds. (FACT).
Lorenzo has crashed from the last two races while leading, so has Rossi, once. (FACT).
Lorenzo's Yamaha is by all accounts a superior package to other rivals, yet not as updated as Rossi's. (FACT).

Now J4rno, with all these facts, what does this say about the rider who is nearest Lorenzo's rival on the "same" (some might say 'slightly better') machine as Lorenzo's? Think now J4rno. Think very hard, take a moment if you need it. You see, we both agree that TP70 made a very insightful post. That is, Lorenzo looks far better than he really is while on superior equipment, right? Interesting don't you think? Especially when you consider that 'not so special' rider is day in day out Rossi's shadow.

I know you and a few reading this will have trouble making the connection; would you like me to spell out a meaningful evaluation to the above facts? Here is some food for thought, perhaps Lorenzo's teammate 'is not that special since his previous success has come on superior machines against his rivals'.

You still agree that Lorenzo is "not that special"?

Climbing on mirrors, Jumkie?
Lorenzo cannot be compared to Rossi or Stoner (which I rate very close to each other as riding skills--and not since yesterday, but since 2007). Read my old posts if you care.

Then , Lorenzo is no joke, he's in the same class as Dovi or Melandri or Capirossi or Biaggi, all riders who have managed to beat Valentino, occasionally. So no wonder that when a rider like that manages to get a factory Yamaha saddle, he has a possibility to shine--but they can never beat Rossi for a championship on the same machine... Forget it!

(BTW: Lorenzo's team manager has stated that any differences between Rossi's and Lorenzo's bike are so negligible that they cannot affect actual track performance).

That's all, and really very simple

Give us Stoner back!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Aug 21 2009, 01:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I laugh at all this Lorenzo being so great .........

He has won 3 MotoGP races in one and a half seasons. Both seasons he has been on the best bike on the grid. Sure the first year he was hamstrung by the Michelins. He has fallen off in 3 times as many races as he has won. He has never had to develop a bike. In 250's when he was racing Stoner and Pedrosa they continuously spanked him. He hung around and won 2 championships against zero competition - his only competition was Dovi who regularly pushed him on a proven lesser machine. His post race antics are truely wanna be 46.5! His new manager however is an absolute ....... genius.

Next year will be truely hillarious as Stoner will hand him his arse week in week out. Lorenzo will develop the bike into a piece of .... that Stoner can't even ride. In 2011, Lorenzo will beg for a ride on the Hayate version of the Suzuki. Stoner will go to Honda and will win the next 3 championships in a row.

To sumarise: Ducati will only ever win one championship in MotoGP: 2007!
.... me, what a fantasy. I bet you got a hard on when you wrote that !