Lorenzo to Ducati!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 23 2009, 02:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What part is true - that you read it once or that the status was bestowed because of off-track activities?

Not arguing either as I have heard that his personality and the way he conducted himself played a part in the decision as was the audience that he bought to the races (ie. somewhat of a forerunner to VR)

Gaz
Neither, I was being sarcastic, it's all ........ and part of someone's ex signature. Read Pete's parody adapted to Rog's sig. to jolt your memory.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Aug 23 2009, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Neither, I was being sarcastic, it's all ........ and part of someone's ex signature. Read Pete's parody adapted to Rog's sig. to jolt your memory.


Cool man, I missed it totally (although I did pickup on the Hopkins comment for Pete).

Sorry.




Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 22 2009, 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>it could well be argued that each had nothing to lose, and/or nothing to gain.

Gaz

That must be where I don't exactly agree, before the start of 2004 Rossi took on a great Challenge and had a lot to lose, if he had not succeeded, Honda would have been right all along, and Rossi's decision would have been seen as a Silly tantrum, that got him nowhere better than staying at Honda. Before the start 2007, Stoner did not dare to a challenge or defy anyone. Stoner did not risk any previous results, achievements or a name before the 2007 Season Started.

So at the end both, Rossi's 2004 and Stoner's 2007, had great results no doubt. But even after the results I am still not sure; let me exemplify two 'If' scenarios after 2007:

1.- Imagine Stoner stayed at Ducati and had won 2008. 2 Seasons in a roll, great achievement.

2.- Imagine Stoner moved to another Manufacturer defying and daring Ducati that it was him alone and not the bike… And wan 2008 on another Manufacturer after seen Ducati's dominance in 2007.

Both afterwards results may sound a great achievement if had happened for Stoner, but one has a bit more flavor to it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Aug 23 2009, 12:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>V, you generally have your head on straight when it comes to all this but this is the stuff that drives the rest crazy. No one is saying that Stoner is the GOAT, no one is saying Stoner is even close to that level. What is being argued is that Stoner's title is very impressive, comparable to Rossi's title in 2004. And here is a Rossi fan essentially saying, "Yeah, OK, he won one title. Valentino has done it six times." Just another in a long line of Rossi fans trying to belittle Hayden and Stoner's accomplishments. This is exactly why there are targets on your backs.

I guess it is not a matter of one diminishing the other (2004 / 2007) as separate 'great' achievements, comparing them is when it can get a bit confusing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Aug 22 2009, 10:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Best post of the thread, Gaz. Thanks.


V, you generally have your head on straight when it comes to all this but this is the stuff that drives the rest crazy. No one is saying that Stoner is the GOAT, no one is saying Stoner is even close to that level. What is being argued is that Stoner's title is very impressive, comparable to Rossi's title in 2004. And here is a Rossi fan essentially saying, "Yeah, OK, he won one title. Valentino has done it six times." Just another in a long line of Rossi fans trying to belittle Hayden and Stoner's accomplishments. This is exactly why there are targets on your backs.

Ooost, this is a great post. (Though V is one of a few reasonable ones). Inevitable once they exausted every point and its rebut with a counter point, the posts change slightly to: 'others deserved their titles BUT...' as if by saying they "deserved" it magically makes their "but" (whatever comes next) is suddenly more reasonable. Haha. The thing that gets me is this idea that if i defend 06/07 fire with fire, its equated as Rossi bashing.

Here is something to think about. Generally everybody on the forum admires Doohan for his accomplishment. But consider this, had the man lived in todays climate, he would be jeered as: bland, whiner, unlikeable, and a person aided by a great machine. Crazy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Aug 23 2009, 02:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner is the only rider to have beaten Rossi fair and square for a championship.
Stoner and Nicky Hayden. And technically Haru Aoki, Loris Capirossi and Kenny Roberts Jr. have also beaten Rossi to a world championship "fair and square" but those were learning years for Valentino so fair play.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Aug 23 2009, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ooost, this is a great post. (Though V is one of a few reasonable ones). Inevitable once they exausted every point and its rebut with a counter point, the posts change slightly to: 'others deserved their titles BUT...' as if by saying they "deserved" it magically makes their "but" (whatever comes next) is suddenly more reasonable. Haha. The thing that gets me is this idea that if i defend 06/07 fire with fire, its equated as Rossi bashing.

Here is something to think about. Generally everybody on the forum admires Doohan for his accomplishment. But consider this, had the man lived in todays climate, he would be jeered as: bland, whiner, unlikeable, and a person aided by a great machine. Crazy.
He was jeered a whiner in his gory days mate. Infact there used to be a weekly sprocket cartoon in mcn dedicated to doohan whining Damn i wish i could find some on the net to post but they were back before computers ect.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Aug 23 2009, 12:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> He was jeered a whiner in his gory days mate. Infact there used to be a weekly sprocket cartoon in mcn dedicated to doohan whining Damn i wish i could find some on the net to post but they were back before computers ect.
That would b cool to see one.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Aug 23 2009, 04:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That must be where I don't exactly agree, before the start of 2004 Rossi took on a great Challenge and had a lot to lose, if he had not succeeded, Honda would have been right all along, and Rossi's decision would have been seen as a Silly tantrum, that got him nowhere better than staying at Honda. Before the start 2007, Stoner did not dare to a challenge or defy anyone. Stoner did not risk any previous results, achievements or a name before the 2007 Season Started.

Well, well, it should come as no surprise that we again disagree.

Yes, Rossi stood to lose a little, not a lot as he was lready a multiple World Champion (rememebr that people seem to be focusing on championships and you do so again here). At the time Rossi went to Yamaha he was always going to be a legend of the sport simply on the basis of his 125/250/500/MotoGP world championships - so what was to lose.

You argue failure, but why?

At the time of the change most consensus was that 2004 he would not win but likely by 2005 he would be more competitive and pushing for if not winning the World Championship. So, nobody was expecting him to be a failure, what they expected was a developmental/learning year and then success. So to say that 2004 would have been a loss of face for Rossi should he not have won the title is (IMO) wrong as it was expected that he lose - it was unexpected that he won but he was expected to be competitive and win in subsequent years (see C, people do not question his ability).

Now, you then say that Stoner had nothing to lose as he was not a winner. Well certainly he had not won, but how does losing a career sound should he have not performed?

Tell me what has more pressure, being a success and taking a backward step for a year when you change jobs, or being out of a job?

Both had little to lose and little to gain as I originally said and let me ask you, if Rossi not winning is seen as a failure (as you assert) how must he feel about 2006/2007?

Yes a silly question and one where you will rebut with 'we are talking about 2004' but one that supports my point as if not winning in 2006/07 is not seen as a failure thence not winning in 2004 would not be seen as a failure either.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Aug 23 2009, 04:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So at the end both, Rossi's 2004 and Stoner's 2007, had great results no doubt. But even after the results I am still not sure; let me exemplify two 'If' scenarios after 2007:

1.- Imagine Stoner stayed at Ducati and had won 2008. 2 Seasons in a roll, great achievement.

2.- Imagine Stoner moved to another Manufacturer defying and daring Ducati that it was him alone and not the bike… And wan 2008 on another Manufacturer after seen Ducati's dominance in 2007.

Both afterwards results may sound a great achievement if had happened for Stoner, but one has a bit more flavor to it.


So you are saying that Rossi's 2004 title is worth more than his other titles?

I cannot agree with that.

Each title, be that one only or the 15 of Agostini are remarkable achievements as it is a year round performance of consistency, skill, concentration and dedication to achieve an end aim which should not be dininished in any way.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Aug 23 2009, 04:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I guess it is not a matter of one diminishing the other (2004 / 2007) as separate 'great' achievements, comparing them is when it can get a bit confusing.

Nope, comparing them is less confusing when you look at pure numbers.

Numbers are facts and facts are irrefutable. certainly numbers can be crunched for reasons but they are still numbers and therefore based on fact.

The numbers would indicate that in 2004 VR went to unknown territory with a new manufacturer and won the title, in 2007 Stoner did the same. The season numbers show remarkable similarities in the individual and team performances for these years which would allude to them being extrordinarily similar in all aspects, yet you your whole point seems borne on the fact that VR had champion ships already?




Lets look at it another way.

If Spies wins the WSBK title is that a great/grand achievement?

Is he any less deserving than is Haga et al who have been there for years?





Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Aug 23 2009, 08:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> He was jeered a whiner in his gory days mate. Infact there used to be a weekly sprocket cartoon in mcn dedicated to doohan whining Damn i wish i could find some on the net to post but they were back before computers ect.


True Roger.

And whilst it will surprise many, I can remember the rare cartoon and articles criticising him at times in the Australian media as not just a whinger as such but for 'other' aspects (and we aren't talking strip clubs). I know a lot of people within the Australian racing scene and as good as MD was on a bike, most are glad he is well out of the scene nowadays.

But the point is right, if MD, Rainey, Lawson etc were around now - they woudl all be thought of in similar ways to Stoner, Pedrosa etc.






Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 23 2009, 05:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>yet you your whole point seems borne on the fact that VR had champion ships already?

Garry

Every Championship is worth great merit… Every race is worth a lot of merit… Yet and example being Tamada’s win over Rossi, in which before the race Tamada announced it, declared it, defy Rossi (Almost sure it was at Motegi 2004)… Simply made it more relevant. Tamada’s words were something like: “I am going to beat you”… To me that’s pretty much how I see it (and remember I root for Rossi since he got to Premier Class). I am not saying that any other rider’s win (over Rossi or not) is not an achievement, but any riders' win may happen at any given race. To dare declare and defy it before, and then go and achieve it… Bloody hell!

Of course if Tamada had not won, he would have been seen pretty silly…

Also anybody can say it now before every single race, and if he ever gets out with it, would not mean the same either.

It was the defying a greater power in the context being, and achieving it, that made it special. I was incredibly happy for Tamada, and he beat Rossi... You know how I defend Rossi and his numbers; I hope this lightens up what I mean.

Anyway, I guess we’ll never get to agree, but based on our conversation I am glad to know smarter people differ in thinking from me. Cheers mate!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Aug 24 2009, 02:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Every Championship is worth great merit… Every race is worth a lot of merit… Yet and example being Tamada’s win over Rossi, in which before the race Tamada announced it, declared it, defy Rossi (Almost sure it was at Motegi 2004)… Simply made it more relevant. Tamada’s words were something like: “I am going to beat you”… To me that’s pretty much how I see it (and remember I root for Rossi since he got to Premier Class). I am not saying that any other rider’s win (over Rossi or not) is not an achievement, but any riders' win may happen at any given race. To dare declare and defy it before, and then go and achieve it… Bloody hell!

Of course if Tamada had not won, he would have been seen pretty silly…

How true, and how refreshing.

That statement by Tamada was arrogant in the extreme, cocky and probably to many was pure fantasy, but he backed it up and when you can do that how bloody sensational is it to actually witness as it happens. Sadly though, many forget that incidentjust as they do Biaggi's similar boast to MD before his first 500cc race which he also backed up and today the consensus would not see it as gamesmanship, confidence or even fun, but it would be seen in a negative light.

Gone are many of the great gamesmanship displays of years gone by, gone are the cocky statements made by confident riders, gone are many of the personalities that made the sport so watchable because of their diversity. Today we are left with PR driven comments, looks and attitudes and rarely if ever do we get to see a genuine personality, to stakes involved are to large.

The discussion has been fun and it is good that people have diverse opinions and can discuss them as adults or at least in an adult manner.

But still, I say 2007 is as good as 2004.








Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Aug 23 2009, 07:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner and Nicky Hayden. And technically Haru Aoki, Loris Capirossi and Kenny Roberts Jr. have also beaten Rossi to a world championship "fair and square" but those were learning years for Valentino so fair play.

I feel obliged to say, all these others doubtlessly have beaten Rossi fair, but not as 'square' as Stoner.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Aug 24 2009, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I feel obliged to say, all these others doubtlessly have beaten Rossi fair, but not as 'square' as Stoner.


Stoner is the only rider to render Rossi into an after race in the garage "helmet with head between knees pose" I never thought I would ever see that.

One has to be good to beat Rossi or should the accolades go to the man controlling the joy-stick?

Stoner is the only rider who sometimes gave me the impression to be actually stronger than Rossi. 2007 would have broken most champions, however Rossi was capable to come back from that.
The battle between Vale and Casey is the real deal.
I will not be satisfied with less.
Give us Stoner back

Well I haven't read the forum for a while (my daughter's visiting from Canada and its the first time I've seen her in three years) AND I haven't read the entire thread but...

I agree with VH - for ME 2004 was a more memorable/significant championship. The thing that separates '04 from '07, for me, is that that the '04 championship was won on inarguably inferior machinery whereas '07 was won on inarguably superior machinery. I liked the drama of '04 and cannot downplay my own bias in the ultimate F-YOU to Honda...

J4rn0 - you can't possibly mean that you "sometimes" have the impression that Stoner is MENTALLY stronger than Rossi... can you??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Aug 24 2009, 08:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well I haven't read the forum for a while (my daughter's visiting from Canada and its the first time I've seen her in three years) AND I haven't read the entire thread but...

I agree with VH - for ME 2004 was a more memorable/significant championship. The thing that separates '04 from '07, for me, is that that the '04 championship was won on inarguably inferior machinery whereas '07 was won on inarguably superior machinery. I liked the drama of '04 and cannot downplay my own bias in the ultimate F-YOU to Honda...

J4rn0 - you can't possibly mean that you "sometimes" have the impression that Stoner is MENTALLY stronger than Rossi... can you??

In 2007, definitely yes--at a certain point Stoner looked stronger in every way, and Vale looked almost on the verge of a major/final breakdown. Kudos to him for being able to stage that sensational comeback in 2008. How many believed it possible? Very few. Stoner had been such a devastating surprise.

Let us not forget that only after Brno 2009, last week, Rossi has finally reached the same number of victories as Stoner in 800cc MotoGP-- 18 each if I am not wrong. I hope Stoner will find the strength Vale was able to find after 2007, and make his own sensational return to the top.

Give us Stoner back.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Aug 25 2009, 02:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In 2007, definitely yes--at a certain point Stoner looked stronger in every way, and Vale looked almost on the verge of a major/final breakdown. Kudos to him for being able to stage that sensational comeback in 2008. How many believed it possible? Very few. Stoner had been such a devastating surprise.

Let us not forget that only after Brno 2009, last week, Rossi has finally reached the same number of victories as Stoner in 800cc MotoGP-- 18 each if I am not wrong. I hope Stoner will find the strength Vale was able to find after 2007, and make his own sensational return to the top.

Give us Stoner back.
Just saying that like any sport icon (Woods, Gretzky, Jordan, Schumacher, etc...) you don't expect an "ultimate" performance annually. Watching Vale's career since 125s I have seen no reason to doubt his mental toughness either in '07 or in early '09 when many members here where touting Jorge's "psych" on Vale...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Aug 17 2009, 06:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-racing...tract/7857.html

For 6 million Why the hell not? The marlboro money is as green as anyone elses.

Wow. Is this true? Hope it's not confirmed.

Regards,
Demi
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