Lorenzo sign with HRC

michaelm said:

It was still an optimistic pass which wasn’t gong to stick sans Pedrosa at Jerez, and I believe the dynamic between him and Lorenzo, justifying the new contract etc had something to do with it. He would imo have been more judicious if it was MM he was trying to pass as he has demonstrated on several occasions in the past.

Dani is the one who was both behind and had full knowledge of where the other 2 riders were, and any rider in the field would have tried to immediately re-pass after Dovi ran wide which Dani should have anticipated, and at least had a chance to anticipate; .

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Disagree with the overall sentiment of this post, but not enough to argue the point in detal again. In the end it was a racing incident, though as Pedrosa said, there was a clear mistake made my Lorenzo. If you leave the race line you're obligated to return safely. Full stop. Lorenzo didn't. Of the three, Pedro had zero fault and was absolutely correct in holding the race line, which by virtue meant given the physics and norms of racing rightfully taken the space vacated by Lorenzo.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

RCV600RR said:

He was immediately fast in 2008. Pole for the first three races, podium in his first race, won at Estoril almost immediately...

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HRC have as their respective tenures, the two most successful current riders in their stable. Lorenzo was likely offered a way back to Yamaha and chose to give being Marc's teammate a go, something hardcore man Zarco turned down. Repsol have their demands, given its an all Spanish line up, I don't forsee Lorenzo playing second fiddle, being the .... he has become may work in his favor. Marc or/and his camp may or may not have been consulted, but considering Darth Puig is as much a ruthless ....... as Azamoron, it wouldn’t surprise me if no such approval was required or requested. Power play with Albert Puke asserting his power. Isn't this what selfish Lorenzo was trying to do at Ducati? Suppo was as ruthless as they come, and HRC turned to hire an even more vicious driven principal. These mothafuckers are ruthless, they'd run over their moms (Gaz) if they had to. Throw in the that smiling assassin Marc, who if he 'was' asked about a teammate his response mostly likely being, bring it, I'm gonna kill'em anyways. Which is what Lorenzo's ego is probably thinking too, especially after winning a race at Mugello, of all places.

Stupid Suzuki. After Lorenzo taking out Dovi and Pedrosa, at his lowest point, I would have picked up the phone and promises him Tiffany cufflinks.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

yamfan said:

Got to disagree slightly Kesh. In his earlier years Lorenzo was highly adaptable jumping onto several different marques, albeit two strokes.
IMO Lorenzo’s slowness to adapt to the Ducati is down to the number of consecutive years he’s had on the Yamaha, this was likely a factor with Rossi too. Riding the Yamaha had become as natural as putting one foot in front of the other to Lorenzo and that’s why it’s taken more time.
Next year jumping onto the Honda may not be such a big deal now he’s getting the Yamaha way out of his system a little, so to speak.

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My recollection is that before Honda stopped putting money into the class the differences between their 250s and those from Yamaha and Aprilia were not vast. When Honda signaled their intent to abandon two strokes the Aprilia became entirely dominant. Still the riding style was pretty much the same; the basic simularity was certainly a factor for why it was such a brilliant class to watch. Even KTM could be pretty damned competitive,

Jumkie said:

Dovi has not "crumbled" inasmuch as Marquez hasn't crumbled because he crashed. Dovi came into the season STILL the 'underdog', and won the first race under a last corner lunge by Marc (4-0 Dovi on this record). The take away was that the Honda had improved given it was in contention for the win at Qatar, a venue not considered a "Honda track". Dovi came into this season as the championship challenger and has actually performed to expectation--as the 'underdog'. (You do know what 'underdog' means, right?) At Jerez he was poised to challenge Marc if not runners-up podium, but while he was taking the risk to pass Lorenzo (who strapped on soft tires and was bound to lose 'pace') he was taken out by said rider because Jlo rejoined unsafely after leaving the race line. Who crumbled? That's like saying Pedro crumbled because he DNFed at Argentina and Jerez.

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I know you're on the AD bandwagon since last yr so we'll agree to disagree.

un·der·dog
ˈəndərˌdôɡ/
noun
noun: underdog; plural noun: underdogs

a competitor thought to have little chance of winning a fight or contest.

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Dovi won an equal number of races as Marquez, the champion last yr. Every MotoGP Season preview this yr said the title race would be between Marquez and Dovi. So no, he still isn't the underdog by the very definition above. That title would go to Zohann Zarco for 2018.

Dovi couldnt pass Lorenzo in Jerez, and (uncharacteristically for him) outbraked himself in a desperate passing attempt, which started the chain reaction to the accident. Dovi had every responsibility to pass cleanly as Lorenzo did to get back to the racing line cleanly. Again we'll disagree on this.

Crashing out of a race 2 corners after taking the lead is crumbling, End of.

Keshav said:

Sure Mate, he'll get on the podium but given how long it took to win a race on the Duc, the evidence points to a guy who hasn't been quick to adapt. It's been more about adapting the bike to the rider than the other way around. There won't be the same amount of attention to him as 2nd rider in the HRC garage. As a benchmark, look at how much more competitive Iannone and Petrucci were their first respective years on the Duc.

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The key point is neither Iannone or Petrucci spent 9 seasons on the best handling and smoothest bike in the paddock. Apart from his ill fated yrs on the 'bike' that was the CAME ART, Petrucci has only ridden Ducati's in GP, the same went for Iannone until 2017.

That should tell you something. What BTW do Stoner, Marquez and Iannone have in common? The will to ride over the edge in a state of continual near-crash without getting flustered.

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How competitive was Iannone in 2017 on the Suzuki? A transition which everyone said is far easier than going from a Yam to a Duc.

Of course Crazy Joe wasn't as good - but still better on the Ducati than Lorenzo in the first year.

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Do you mean his first yr on the Pramac or the Factory?

For the record, I never said Petrucci was championship material.

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For the record, I never said you did :lol:

michaelm said:

It was still an optimistic pass which wasn’t gong to stick sans Pedrosa at Jerez, and I believe the dynamic between him and Lorenzo, justifying the new contract etc had something to do with it.

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Agreed, along with Le Mans

Keshav said:

We've covered that. The brilliance of the M1 was it's suitability for riders coming from the two-stroke era. Good fortune that. I've said before if he hadn't been there on that bike, he might have ended up a mid-pack rider on a bike that he wouldn't be perfect for him. Lorenzo is still struggling with the point and shoot concept. Mind you, I'm not a Lorenzo hater. This is just my opinion. Time will tell.

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He seemed to do just fine last weekend

What's interesting with Dovi is that from Valencia last year to Le Mans he crashed out twice due to his own errors. Definitely strange and as 22 alluded to could be from the pressure of being a real championship threat. I don't think he has crumbled but like Rossi in 2016 who had uncharacteristic crashes the pressure of being at the front with the expectations of winning a championship and knowing you need to win races to give yourself a shot leads to overriding the bike, takings risks and making mistakes.

Little Walter said:

My recollection is that before Honda stopped putting money into the class the differences between their 250s and those from Yamaha and Aprilia were not vast. When Honda signaled their intent to abandon two strokes the Aprilia became entirely dominant. Still the riding style was pretty much the same; the basic simularity was certainly a factor for why it was such a brilliant class to watch. Even KTM could be pretty damned competitive,

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Loved the TZ250s. I had stopped following races for a while and lost track of when Yamaha pulled away from the class which they dominated at one time. Re: the KTMs, with an ingrained tendency to root for underdogs, watching Luthi hustle that bike to compete against the much more expensive Aprilias made me a fan of his. As with Aoyama I was really dispappointed to see him flounder in the MotoGp class.

Re: #22 He seemed to do just fine last weekend

Betcha a beer it won't happen again any time soon.

Little Walter said:

My recollection is that before Honda stopped putting money into the class the differences between their 250s and those from Yamaha and Aprilia were not vast. When Honda signaled their intent to abandon two strokes the Aprilia became entirely dominant. Still the riding style was pretty much the same; the basic simularity was certainly a factor for why it was such a brilliant class to watch. Even KTM could be pretty damned competitive,

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The Honda and Aprilia were poles apart as far as two strokes go. The Honda was a reed valve and a relative torque monster compared to the peaky disc valve Aprilia. As far as strokers go they required very different riding techniques.
As far as the M1 goes, yes it’s been probably the most user friendly MotoGP bike, but how many others have actually gone head to head with Rossi on one and beaten him to championships? He couldn’t have done that bad for Yamaha to be ready to roll out the red carpet and give him a return ticket a la Rossi, although ultimately it seems it wasn’t required.
In my opinion Honda are being savvy and taking on Lorenzo in the hope he will improve the Honda’s handling so Marc has an easier time for the future, making him less likely to crash from folding that fickle front end. Although Marc is probably the most phenomenal rider of his era, I think he tends to ride around the bike’s problems rather than identify them for correction. If Lorenzo does improve the bike (if he is the developer he’s perceived from the Yamaha and now Ducati, who knows?), Marc could reign at the top of MotoGP for a seriously long time.

I'm gonna stand out and say that Lorenzo will deliver podiums and likely wins within the first six rounds next year. He won't ride it like Marquez, but he will ride it better than Pedrosa. We all know what happens when Pedro meets conditions and set up in his favour.

Barbedwirebikerr said:

I'm gonna stand out and say that Lorenzo will deliver podiums and likely wins within the first six rounds next year. He won't ride it like Marquez, but he will ride it better than Pedrosa. We all know what happens when Pedro meets conditions and set up in his favour.

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I agree with you on the podiums, but I can't quite stretch to a win within 6 rounds.

Holypuck said:

Luckily that never happens in English speaking countries....


Jokes aside you ain't got to be surprised. The average IQ of valebans who make sarcastic statements about MM and JLo's "alliance" in 2015 is so low I'm surprised they were actually able to make a meme!

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As opposed to the Shakespearean intellect of the ones that make Rossi memes...

Holypuck said:

Well I live in Italy, we don't have em Rossi memes down here...and as the meme we're discussing about is in Italian....

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I suppose that’s like shopping for a Protestant bible in Vatican city.

yamfan said:

The Honda and Aprilia were poles apart as far as two strokes go. The Honda was a reed valve and a relative torque monster compared to the peaky disc valve Aprilia. As far as strokers go they required very different riding techniques.
As far as the M1 goes, yes it’s been probably the most user friendly MotoGP bike, but how many others have actually gone head to head with Rossi on one and beaten him to championships? He couldn’t have done that bad for Yamaha to be ready to roll out the red carpet and give him a return ticket a la Rossi, although ultimately it seems it wasn’t required.
In my opinion Honda are being savvy and taking on Lorenzo in the hope he will improve the Honda’s handling so Marc has an easier time for the future, making him less likely to crash from folding that fickle front end. Although Marc is probably the most phenomenal rider of his era, I think he tends to ride around the bike’s problems rather than identify them for correction. If Lorenzo does improve the bike (if he is the developer he’s perceived from the Yamaha and now Ducati, who knows?), Marc could reign at the top of MotoGP for a seriously long time.

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I've never downplayed his talent in general. Just his ability to adapt to bikes that require point and shoot style cornering.

As to Lorenzo making the Honda a vastly different bike, I suspect that's wishful thinking along the lines of, Nicky will be great on the Ducati because of his dirt track experience.

You have to consider that there are lots of other riders on various iterations of the RCV and ask yourself, why hasn't their input tamed the bike? Honda, like Ducati of old, have been historically resistant to the idea of rolling back or diluting the various technologies they have developed. I don't see them building the Marquez bike and then something different for all the secondary riders. Honda tends to look for the rider that will make the most of their proprietary designs. The exception of course being the Pedrocycle, and look at how that turned out.

#22 said:

I know you're on the AD bandwagon since last yr so we'll agree to disagree.



Dovi won an equal number of races as Marquez, the champion last yr. Every MotoGP Season preview this yr said the title race would be between Marquez and Dovi. So no, he still isn't the underdog by the very definition above. That title would go to Zohann Zarco for 2018.

Dovi couldnt pass Lorenzo in Jerez, and (uncharacteristically for him) outbraked himself in a desperate passing attempt, which started the chain reaction to the accident. Dovi had every responsibility to pass cleanly as Lorenzo did to get back to the racing line cleanly. Again we'll disagree on this.

Crashing out of a race 2 corners after taking the lead is crumbling, End of.

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This is interesting, so you're going to double down. Ok, let's explore this another way.

Who is the 'underdog'? Check one.
(Poll open to anybody, not just you.)

Rider: UNDERDOG

1. □ Marquez □ Dovi

Manufacturer: UNDERDOG

2. □ Honda. □ Ducati

Let's ask this a different way. Who is the championship favorite, that is the opposite of underdog?

Rider: CHAMP FAVORITE (who is NOT the underdog).

1. □ Marquez □ Dovi

Manufacturer: CHAMP FAVORITE

2. □ Honda. □ Ducati

We could end the discussion here, but let's elaborate.

You want to 'hang your hat' on Marc and Honda as the 'underdogs'? Otherwise Dovi/Ducati are the underdog! Yet you want to argue the guy who has won 4 of the last 5 championships, and the manufacturer that has 4 different individual champions since 2000 are/is the underdog? In that time, Ducati have scored a solitary championship with one of the all time fastest riders, one compared to guess who... Marc Marquez. That's your underdog. Wait, you'll say "point out where I said Marc/Honda are the underdog."



Let's examine the notion of "crumbling" now. Marc Marquez had 27 crashes and won the title, kinda puts your notion of "crumbling" in perspective. I'd agree with you if it were under the circumstance of a title deciding moment, but we're talking about the 5th round of 19. Dovi has had 1 crash at a venue that saw a shitload of crashes, including Zarco in the lead. By your standard, Marc crashed at Mugello, his championship has "crumbled"?

Recap:

1. The 2018 Underdog: Marc Marquez (right?) No, Dovizioso=underdog.

2. Crashing=crumbling, see Marc Marquez.


Most people assert (your words below) that Dovi won as many races last year as Marc because it was a "perfect storm", what is the message in this statement? Oh yeah, it's unsustainable! That is he was lucky to even be challenging Marc, something UNEXPECTED. That is, he is the UNDERDOG to try and duplicate the challenge, 'little chance of winning' against the championship favorite: Marc Marquez!

un·der·dog

ˈəndərˌdôɡ/

noun

noun: underdog; plural noun: underdogs

a competitor thought to have little chance of winning a fight or contest.




You couldn't say, well, maybe you're choice of description wasn't entirely reflective of the reality, you preferred to double down. Yeah, you're right, let's agree to disagree.





If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

synn said:

I suppose that’s like shopping for a Protestant bible in Vatican city.

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The Koran perhaps?

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

michaelm said:

I agree. What he really needs is a tire which suits him though, and HRC may have the clout and sufficient interest in him to push for such a tire.

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Dani needed a tire for his micro body/weight and unfortunately that didn't happen ... he crashed in Mugello on a hard tire early because he just can't get heat into the tire quick enough (even on a hot day), part riding style part body weight part tiny body frame. 130 lbs and smallest frame possible to manage weight placement at it's optimal and enough strength to hold the bike up if needed ... Dani has none of that (too small, too light, not strong enough - arm pump, injuries, etc.).

I'm kinda surprised they went with Jorge and not Cal given his performance on the Sat Honda. I think Jorge will adapt faster to the Honda than he did to the Ducati but Cal would pick it up almost immediately ... I can see a podium for Jorge next year, but not sure about a win unless it's gifted.

Either way, all these changes should make 2019 interesting.

#22 said:

I know you're on the AD bandwagon since last yr so we'll agree to disagree.

Attention Deficit?


The key point is neither Iannone or Petrucci spent 9 seasons on the best handling and smoothest bike in the paddock. Apart from his ill fated yrs on the 'bike' that was the CAME ART, Petrucci has only ridden Ducati's in GP, the same went for Iannone until 2017.


I can't see the relevancy to his inability to adapt to the Duc.
If anything Lorenzo has vastly more experience in racing
and should produce much better results, especially given
he's on an iteration that turns better and has superior
aerodynamics package.


How competitive was Iannone in 2017 on the Suzuki? A transition which everyone said is far easier than going from a Yam to a Duc.

He's a wild rider. Tho he crashed a lot, he got lots more results
on the Duc. Something we've seen little of thus far.


Do you mean his first yr on the Pramac or the Factory?

First year he podiumed in his first race, a 2nd in Italy, and podiumed again in Australia.

Second year podiumed at COTA, Italy, won in Australia and podiumed again in Valencia.

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.

The Honda is a point-and-shoot nervous bike that may have less understeer than the Ducati, but is definitely less stable under the brakes. It is designed for entering corners very deep at super-high-speed, wriggling like a snake, and for being picked up super-quickly ad exit said corners superfast.

In other words, it's Marquez' bike. Light years distant from a Lorenzo high corner speed Yamaha. Thinking that Lorenzo will jump on it and challenge Marquez in the space of a few GPs seems rather wishful. It will take him at least one year matching Pedrobot's performance, more likely. By that time his infinite pride will likely be under his heels, with young shark Marc eating him alive each weekend.

Do you really think that a rider who took 20-plus races to beat Dovi on the same bike, will beat Marc Marquez on the same bike any faster?