Lorenzo "Rossi awoke the beast of Marquez"

paparazzo said:

It certainly is open to him, it is open to everyone. He's got none or very little simply because he's got zero personality, charm or charisma and has also proved to be a bitter crybaby after Sepang. Oh wait, I forgot, must be Dorna behind Valentino's popularity, which is still soaring. Fans are probably paid and given free grandstands and yellow flags...

Love how you try so hard to come across as impartial in your posts but to a keen eye it is quite clear what you think of Valentino. No need to hold back, I know you can't stand him :spin:

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Yes, I am a heretic. Burn me at the stake along with Lorenzo. I make no secret of being a Lorenzo and Stoner fan, and hence have no reason to resent your boy Valentino since both those riders have proved his superior in head to head competition. You don't seem to realise that the hatred of those 2 riders by rabid Rossi fans of your ilk, very clear in regard to Lorenzo in this last post of yours, is a source of pleasure to their fans. Before that I was a Doohan fan, who has a pretty reasonable record himself, with which I, and I am sure he, are very satisfied even if that record is not quite as good as Valentino's record. True fans of the sport and those 3 riders are happy with their exceptional achievements, as you should be with Valentino's even more exceptional achievements, but such is not the nature of those of your ilk.

Please provide examples of any rider who has had any success against Valentino who is popular with VR's rabid fans, or with Rossi himself for that matter. Iannone was recently pilloried for finishing one place ahead of him in a single race. Valentino to his credit came out in support of Iannone and was praised for doing so by several of your recent opponents on here, but I wouldn't count on him continuing the same policy towards Iannone if he continues to beat him particularly given subsequent events.

As I have said several times during these recent discussions, I previously blamed rabid VR fans such as you for all the nonsense, and would have supported him against MM in a championship battle. Recent events have been eye-opening for me, both in demonstrating he is complicit with those fans in the campaigns of vilification, and that the legendary mental toughness, which I did not doubt btw, is rather questionable, with "that's racing" appearing to have very limited local rather than universal application.

michaelm said:

As I have said several times during these recent discussions, I previously blamed rabid VR fans such as you for all the nonsense, and would have supported him against MM in a championship battle. Recent events have been eye-opening for me, both in demonstrating he is complicit with those fans in the campaigns of vilification, and that the legendary mental toughness, which I did not doubt btw, is rather questionable, with "that's racing" appearing to have very limited local rather than universal application.

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Are you implying that Rossi has some sort of remote control of his fans? What do you suggest he do, get on the PA system at the track and demand his fans cheer and applaud Jorge? Go on social media and say "please please be nice to Jorge...'

Fans pay big money to this circus, they can cheer, jeer, applaud and boo when they feel like just like you and your ilk undermine each and every one of his wins and championships with rabid conspiracy theories of Dorna involvement. When he wins, 'Well, it's the factory bike, the special tires, he had no competition, it was wet, the others crashed, Dorna told everyone to stay back...' Take a VR positive, spin it negative, undermine it. Contact at Agrentina and Assen? Purely engineered by Rossi, his fault. This is the rhetoric that has been posted here and the boys of your ilk, instead of laughing it off as preposterous, pile on in agreement. Then you expect me to take you seriously?

I'll say again, I have respect for anyone who rides at this level, from Jorge to Mike diMeglio and Ana Carrasco and all in between. The fact the other top riders have no fans has nothing to do with Valentino or Sepang, these riders hardly had any fans before Sepang. They have even less and will continue to have less simply because they do not connect with people, not even their own.

Paparazzo, why are you trying to incite an argument? The main point of this thread was about what Marquez is going to be like next season and what Lorenzo thought about that. It isn't about trashing Rossi or defending Lorenzo against your accusations of him being without personality or dishonest or whatever.

It also doesn't have to break down into us psychoanalyzing each other and trying to find the root cause of each other's "wrongness" based on some defect of personality.

And who cares about how "Rossi's fame is soaring"? Nobody is disputing that. That isn't the point at all. The fact that Rossi is so popular doesn't override any criticism of him. "You said something bad about Rossi? Well, he's super popular, so you're wrong." That's a logical fallacy.

I'm not trying to attack your personality directly. I'm just asking if it is possible that you can stop farting at the dinner table.

An interesting read. I think Jorge makes an excellent point mentioning Rossi's choice to make an announcement to the press regarding Phillip Island instead of approaching Marques personally (like he apparently did to Iannone after Phillip Island and Pedrosa after Aragon).

The Burning Barber said:

An interesting read. I think Jorge makes an excellent point mentioning Rossi's choice to make an announcement to the press regarding Phillip Island instead of approaching Marques personally (like he apparently did to Iannone after Phillip Island and Pedrosa after Aragon).

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I ask this out of complete ignorance of Spanish-Italian relations.

Is it possible that Rossi came out publicly against Marquez as a sort of "Screw you Spain" sentiment? I don't know how Spain and Italy interact with each other over sports or politics or anything.

kurre said:

Paparazzo, why are you trying to incite an argument? The main point of this thread was about what Marquez is going to be like next season and what Lorenzo thought about that. It isn't about trashing Rossi or defending Lorenzo against your accusations of him being without personality or dishonest or whatever.

It also doesn't have to break down into us psychoanalyzing each other and trying to find the root cause of each other's "wrongness" based on some defect of personality.

And who cares about how "Rossi's fame is soaring"? Nobody is disputing that. That isn't the point at all. The fact that Rossi is so popular doesn't override any criticism of him. "You said something bad about Rossi? Well, he's super popular, so you're wrong." That's a logical fallacy.

I'm not trying to attack your personality directly. I'm just asking if it is possible that you can stop farting at the dinner table.

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But you are, you're accusing me of trying to incite an argument. The poster replied to my post and I replied to his. Nothing to do with you. I understand it's frustrating to have a Rossi bopper upsetting the status quo. Find the ignore feature, use it and just move on

kurre said:

I ask this out of complete ignorance of Spanish-Italian relations.

Is it possible that Rossi came out publicly against Marquez as a sort of "Screw you Spain" sentiment? I don't know how Spain and Italy interact with each other over sports or politics or anything.

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And this is total nonsense. It was only 2 years ago Jorge decalred publicly that Valentino is the best ever, over Agostini and Hailwood..

Total nonsense? It might be off the mark, but "total nonsense"? I don't know. All the people who are so upset that Rossi lost say that it was a "Spanish conspiracy." They could simply say "conspiracy" but they very deliberately add the word "Spanish".

paparazzo said:

Surprise surprise. "Great read, thoughtful comments, refreshing.." fits with the rhetoric of 'anything negative against VT is a positive' on motogpforum.com. If you ever wondered why such a successful winning rider (Lorenzo) has virtually no fans this pretty much explains it.

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Troll.

paparazzo said:

It certainly is open to him, it is open to everyone. He's got none or very little simply because he's got zero personality, charm or charisma and has also proved to be a bitter crybaby after Sepang.

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Oh of course, Rossi has never been a crybaby has he?

paparazzo said:

Mange la marde cris de troll Canadienne.

Si t'as rien a contribuer, retourner dans votre trou.


GTFO!

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Peidiwch a siarad mewn iaith arall yn feddwl bod pobol yn ddim yn gallu deall beth ti'n dweud, achos ti'n dod ar draws fel twpsen.

Twll ddyn i ti, ar GTFO!!!!

paparazzo said:

And this is total nonsense. It was only 2 years ago Jorge decalred publicly that Valentino is the best ever, over Agostini and Hailwood..

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Oh really? Link to the article or GTFO....

paparazzo said:

Are you implying that Rossi has some sort of remote control of his fans? What do you suggest he do, get on the PA system at the track and demand his fans cheer and applaud Jorge? Go on social media and say "please please be nice to Jorge...'

Fans pay big money to this circus, they can cheer, jeer, applaud and boo when they feel like just like you and your ilk undermine each and every one of his wins and championships with rabid conspiracy theories of Dorna involvement. When he wins, 'Well, it's the factory bike, the special tires, he had no competition, it was wet, the others crashed, Dorna told everyone to stay back...' Take a VR positive, spin it negative, undermine it. Contact at Agrentina and Assen? Purely engineered by Rossi, his fault. This is the rhetoric that has been posted here and the boys of your ilk, instead of laughing it off as preposterous, pile on in agreement. Then you expect me to take you seriously?

I'll say again, I have respect for anyone who rides at this level, from Jorge to Mike diMeglio and Ana Carrasco and all in between. The fact the other top riders have no fans has nothing to do with Valentino or Sepang, these riders hardly had any fans before Sepang. They have even less and will continue to have less simply because they do not connect with people, not even their own.

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Yes I do think Rossi didn't care whom he incited by his unprovable pre-Sepang accusations, and unless you actually agree he was crazed at the time he is an intelligent man who would have been well aware that his more rabid fans would be among those incited, particularly given the very recent example of their behaviour towards Iannone. In the particular instance his object was MM and not Lorenzo if I didn't make myself clear.

Straw man is no less egregious as a logical error than argumentum ad hominem btw, and I argued extensively at the time that MM was at fault at Assen and have continued to do so since. It is hard for me to form an opinion on the Argentinian incident as I only watched it recently on replay and did not see it live but it was fundamentally an error of judgement on MM's part as well, one of several such errors early in the season which took him out of championship contention; he had no chance of staying ahead of Rossi on a re-pass as Rossi had caught up 4 seconds and passed him easily in the first instance, and should have settled for second.

So.........that's a "no" to the Italy-Spain rivalry?

paparazzo said:

Are you implying that Rossi has some sort of remote control of his fans? What do you suggest he do, get on the PA system at the track and demand his fans cheer and applaud Jorge? Go on social media and say "please please be nice to Jorge...'

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He did exactly that to STOP the fan abuse of Ianonne following Phillip Island so he has shown that he will step in when he wishes to step in and by extension, one could well say that by not stepping in (as he did with Ianonne), he could well be seen as supporting the vitriolic action of those self same fans.

Does he have an obligation to do so ................ well no, no he does not.

But then, he did set a precedent only a few weeks ago and it is not just the 'haters' in this place that are asking (it is being asked in some pro-Rossi forums as well)

paparazzo said:

I'll say again, I have respect for anyone who rides at this level, from Jorge to Mike diMeglio and Ana Carrasco and all in between. The fact the other top riders have no fans has nothing to do with Valentino or Sepang, these riders hardly had any fans before Sepang. They have even less and will continue to have less simply because they do not connect with people, not even their own.

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Firstly, cut out the zero fan ........ as other riders do have many many fans so to say 0 fans is crap.

What the other riders do not have if the numbers of people who are following the personality before the sport (that is not to say that other riders do not have similar fans, but the numbers are way less).

You have stated yourself that the charisma of VR is something that you find attractive and is something that make you prefer VR over (as example) JL, but just as you prefer that there will be people like myself who much prefer the 'talk on track' rather than the 'public shows' that we see from Rossi and the imitators (some successful, some major fails).

It is this very charisma that you so enjoy that can and has led to issues whereby you have 'fans' that take fandom to levels that in many eyes are unacceptable with the behaviour, be that childish booing, threats or the simplistic and extremely common, belittling of another's achievements or of people who disagree.

When VR leaves the riding side of the sport, he will annoint the successor that he wishes these fans to follow and I suspect that most will follow the very rider he suggests or supports for no reason other than 'if VR says it is so then it must be right'.

Good luck to these 'fans' irrespective of what they choose to do or whom they choose to follow, as personally I suspect that over the years they will drift off as the illusion presented by VR will no longer be as attractive as without him people will lose their interest

BTW, you will notice that the above has nothing disparaging regarding the riding capability (or other) of VR as just as I have said for some time, he has the results irrespective of any theories, but I cannot like the personality and will not. Doesn't make me wrong or right ............

Great read, thoughtful comments, refreshing...

Lorenzo-Rossi-Marquez saga is stale now. I would not be very much surprised seeing newer riders going a level better under the nose of these guys. With new tyres and ECU factory guys have a lot of work to do. From the observations it seems that Yamaha has done the best job in understanding Magneti Marelli ECU by working closely with open class teams. Redding posted the laptime of just 0.2 under Lorenzo's pole timing at Jerez. While factory guys will have the latest hardware package, software will be the decider. Remember how Marquez struggled with the Honda beast. It had too much power. He reverted to 2014 chassis and performed much better. Lot of work to be done yet but the new rule changes will try for making this a more level playing field. As much as it is currently not true, I want Rossi's comment of Rider being the decider to be true. Moto3 and Moto2 are much more entertaining. It's just that these classes get lost in the chaos created by premier classes. I was laughing when commentators were saying that Phillip Island this year was one of the best races in the decade. Much more entertaining races are played out in almost every race in lower classes. That's where a rider shines out more.
Entirely my view which is highly subjective and my own. Disagree but please do not get personal.

Rafa said:

Lorenzo-Rossi-Marquez saga is stale now. I would not be very much surprised seeing newer riders going a level better under the nose of these guys. With new tyres and ECU factory guys have a lot of work to do. From the observations it seems that Yamaha has done the best job in understanding Magneti Marelli ECU by working closely with open class teams. Redding posted the laptime of just 0.2 under Lorenzo's pole timing at Jerez. While factory guys will have the latest hardware package, software will be the decider. Remember how Marquez struggled with the Honda beast. It had too much power. He reverted to 2014 chassis and performed much better. Lot of work to be done yet but the new rule changes will try for making this a more level playing field. As much as it is currently not true, I want Rossi's comment of Rider being the decider to be true. Moto3 and Moto2 are much more entertaining. It's just that these classes get lost in the chaos created by premier classes. I was laughing when commentators were saying that Phillip Island this year was one of the best races in the decade. Much more entertaining races are played out in almost every race in lower classes. That's where a rider shines out more.
Entirely my view which is highly subjective and my own. Disagree but please do not get personal.

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I would be entirely surprised if there was a faster gun than Marquez in the near future. Even if the Honda is a handful if he rides smart as he appeared to be starting to do in the second half of the 2015 season he will be hard to beat.

michaelm said:

I would be entirely surprised if there was a faster gun than Marquez in the near future. Even if the Honda is a handful if he rides smart as he appeared to be starting to do in the second half of the 2015 season he will be hard to beat.

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This is my thought.

The only thing that may hurt MM is the Michelin front tire.

If he learns how to work with that, he's going to be a frontrunner for the 2016 title.

#22 said:

Oh really? Link to the article or GTFO....

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Troll eh? OK...I'll do better than that. Here is a video. I now await how you and your ilk here will spin this. :spin:



EDIT

Troll??

GTFO

That video was really uncomfortable to watch during the Lorenzo and Rossi exchange.

kurre said:

So.........that's a "no" to the Italy-Spain rivalry?

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Rivalry between the 2 is as long as history itself.

Motorcycles, bicycles, Futbol (calcio), to the discovery of the "Americas" has been a constant pissin match between the two countries. Best wine, food, women, weather are all in Spain. The Italians are better at sellin their ..... Historicaly seafarer tradesmen. Hence, Italian wine has more "name" than Spanish. Same goes for olive oil.

For the most part, we get along well with our Med neighbors.

baturro said:

Rivalry between the 2 is as long as history itself.

Motorcycles, bicycles, Futbol (calcio), to the discovery of the "Americas" has been a constant pissin match between the two countries.
For the most part, we get along well with our Med neighbors.

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Lol. I'm not sure there's much to debate about the discovery of the Americas. Italians may have had Columbus, but go down to Mexico, Central or South America and you don't hear them speaking much Italian.

The Spanish didn't discover ...., they DESTROYED everything they came across. Genocide, slavery, religious subjugation, Catholicism, economic subjugation, cast system, etc. They brought everything ...... about their ...... culture to America. (Sorry batturo, facts are facts homie).