I've bagged Westy plenty of times on this forum - but I think he deserves a bit of a break on this one. He's got a broken vertebrae in his back. To me, he shouldn't have been riding at all. The kawasaki is a pile of .... - who would be confident on it? If it's not having mechanical failures (Hopper's had 3), then it's spitting riders off. Give Westy a bit of a break.
Laguna Seca - Race discussion
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 21 2008, 10:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>because he's a racer, and he lost. It's pretty normal behaviour.
Seen the corkscrew incident and the adjacent two laps on you tube, still haven't seen the stoner off. Looked like casey made hard passes as well even in that small segment of the race. I can't comment on casey's off, but it would seem unlikely that I will disagree with those who say that both made mistakes and that casey's had more adverse consequences. However I think I have enough information to disagree that valentino's better outcome was entirely due to his sublime skill; had casey not moved it appears highly likely they both would have gone down. Looked like a racing incident to me as long as there was a realistic prospect of rossi getting through the corner on the line he chose; there is no way of me hazarding a guess as to this given that I have never been to the track (a situation I will have to redress), my computer monitor is only 2-dimensional and my understanding is that the corkscrew is very much a 3-dimensional phenomenon. I do remember casey making a mistake in 2006 where he took out other riders so I accept he is not in a position to be too precious.
My working hypothesis (hypothetical particularly in view of me not having seen the race) is that casey looks at this forum, knew roger was going to the race, and wanted to prove to him that he could dice for the lead with valentino
.
As for the post-race I am now inclined to think that since he is going to be the black hat guy anyway he may as well embrace it and keep telling it as he sees it, misguidedly or not. I think casey needs to not worry about doing things with the brio of vale or being loved like him since neither is at all achievable and concentrate on winning the races as duc999 says. He will lose out if he allows himself to get angry and changes the way he races because of this.
Seen the corkscrew incident and the adjacent two laps on you tube, still haven't seen the stoner off. Looked like casey made hard passes as well even in that small segment of the race. I can't comment on casey's off, but it would seem unlikely that I will disagree with those who say that both made mistakes and that casey's had more adverse consequences. However I think I have enough information to disagree that valentino's better outcome was entirely due to his sublime skill; had casey not moved it appears highly likely they both would have gone down. Looked like a racing incident to me as long as there was a realistic prospect of rossi getting through the corner on the line he chose; there is no way of me hazarding a guess as to this given that I have never been to the track (a situation I will have to redress), my computer monitor is only 2-dimensional and my understanding is that the corkscrew is very much a 3-dimensional phenomenon. I do remember casey making a mistake in 2006 where he took out other riders so I accept he is not in a position to be too precious.
My working hypothesis (hypothetical particularly in view of me not having seen the race) is that casey looks at this forum, knew roger was going to the race, and wanted to prove to him that he could dice for the lead with valentino
As for the post-race I am now inclined to think that since he is going to be the black hat guy anyway he may as well embrace it and keep telling it as he sees it, misguidedly or not. I think casey needs to not worry about doing things with the brio of vale or being loved like him since neither is at all achievable and concentrate on winning the races as duc999 says. He will lose out if he allows himself to get angry and changes the way he races because of this.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Jul 21 2008, 09:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I've bagged Westy plenty of times on this forum - but I think he deserves a bit of a break on this one. He's got a broken vertebrae in his back. To me, he shouldn't have been riding at all. The kawasaki is a pile of .... - who would be confident on it? If it's not having mechanical failures (Hopper's had 3), then it's spitting riders off. Give Westy a bit of a break.
On Channel 10's coverage Daryl Beatie was discussing how he (Westy) was changing his bike set up to what Hacking suggested and I realised that this level of racing is really completely beyond Westy.
I really have to ponder what is happening at Kawasaki if this is what a "factory" rider is doing to set the bike up.
Westy is lost and needs to bail out and get himself a super sport ride next year to return to winning ways. This is the pinnacle of the sport and Westy is not the complete package rider who can do setup and development (as opposed to tuning a production bike which he can do). He just don't belong here.
On Channel 10's coverage Daryl Beatie was discussing how he (Westy) was changing his bike set up to what Hacking suggested and I realised that this level of racing is really completely beyond Westy.
I really have to ponder what is happening at Kawasaki if this is what a "factory" rider is doing to set the bike up.
Westy is lost and needs to bail out and get himself a super sport ride next year to return to winning ways. This is the pinnacle of the sport and Westy is not the complete package rider who can do setup and development (as opposed to tuning a production bike which he can do). He just don't belong here.
I have now seen a fair bit of the race, I had thought from reading accounts of the race that stoner may have got rossi if he had been more patient but I now think probably not. I concur with mladin's view. The question is also raised as to how much rossi/jb/ yamaha may have found by race-time if not for the rain at sachsenring and rossi's off at assen. Stoner's off was obviously due to intrinsic rather than extrinsic factors, apart from the pressure valentino had exerted on him.
As others have said if the bikes/riders/whatever remain at their current relative level valentino needs to be on the front row. It would be ironic if he lost the world title because of michelin qualifiers.
As others have said if the bikes/riders/whatever remain at their current relative level valentino needs to be on the front row. It would be ironic if he lost the world title because of michelin qualifiers.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jul 21 2008, 02:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah I was quite concerned when I saw that it was his head that hit first and they didn't show a replay for ages.
I believe the full quote was 'the riders wear leather suits and helmets (three second pause), leather suits, boots, gloves and plastic pucks on their knees' etc. Pathetic. Inform the clueless, that's fine, but at least learn how to speak.
And the intelligent debate begins...
Were you watching the same race? Stoner would rather blitz off into the distance? If you think any of these riders would rather scrap bar to bar for 30 laps you're not with it. Yeah, Rossi loves a good scrap but who doesn't? It's far riskier, so obviously one would prefer to not have to worry about being taken out and gather the win and the 25 points. Come on man, at least pretend to be level-headed. Stoner was scrapping just as well as Rossi. Both raced out of their ....... heads and it was a spectacle of a race.
And it's been touched on a couple of times that Ducati had a faster bike. Frankly, I didn't really see that. Stoner made ground onto the front straight but his line through 11 was far different from Rossi's. Every time he was behind Rossi coming through 11 he squared it up and got a big drive onto the front straight while Vale defended the inside (as he should have done), thus it looks as though the Ducati is far faster but in reality the difference comes down to the different lines each was on.
I mean honestly, come on guys. Stoner fans: Rossi wasn't being dangerous, just having a ding dong of a scrap. Admit it, Stoner made a mistake and got beat. Rossi fans: The Ducati wasn't any better than the Yam here, did you notice how unsettled it was compared to the M1 just floating through corners? And give Stoner a break, try to tell me you wouldn't be sore after getting beat in a battle like that.
Let's try taking off the glasses folks, it's growing a bit old. Especially for those of us who have an admiration for both Stoner and Rossi while allegiances lie elsewhere.
at least someone has some common sense here...
rossi should use this to help boost his belief that the title will be his, whilst stoner should use this as motivation..
dont get mad, get EVEN!
one helluva race, more please!
I believe the full quote was 'the riders wear leather suits and helmets (three second pause), leather suits, boots, gloves and plastic pucks on their knees' etc. Pathetic. Inform the clueless, that's fine, but at least learn how to speak.
And the intelligent debate begins...
Were you watching the same race? Stoner would rather blitz off into the distance? If you think any of these riders would rather scrap bar to bar for 30 laps you're not with it. Yeah, Rossi loves a good scrap but who doesn't? It's far riskier, so obviously one would prefer to not have to worry about being taken out and gather the win and the 25 points. Come on man, at least pretend to be level-headed. Stoner was scrapping just as well as Rossi. Both raced out of their ....... heads and it was a spectacle of a race.
And it's been touched on a couple of times that Ducati had a faster bike. Frankly, I didn't really see that. Stoner made ground onto the front straight but his line through 11 was far different from Rossi's. Every time he was behind Rossi coming through 11 he squared it up and got a big drive onto the front straight while Vale defended the inside (as he should have done), thus it looks as though the Ducati is far faster but in reality the difference comes down to the different lines each was on.
I mean honestly, come on guys. Stoner fans: Rossi wasn't being dangerous, just having a ding dong of a scrap. Admit it, Stoner made a mistake and got beat. Rossi fans: The Ducati wasn't any better than the Yam here, did you notice how unsettled it was compared to the M1 just floating through corners? And give Stoner a break, try to tell me you wouldn't be sore after getting beat in a battle like that.
Let's try taking off the glasses folks, it's growing a bit old. Especially for those of us who have an admiration for both Stoner and Rossi while allegiances lie elsewhere.
at least someone has some common sense here...
rossi should use this to help boost his belief that the title will be his, whilst stoner should use this as motivation..
dont get mad, get EVEN!
one helluva race, more please!
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 21 2008, 10:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>West sucks
No he just rides for Kawasaki and they are the ones that sucks....put him on a Pnuematic valved honda and he could conquer the world!
No he just rides for Kawasaki and they are the ones that sucks....put him on a Pnuematic valved honda and he could conquer the world!
for me this showed why rossi is still the best, tactics, sublime driving ability, defensive driving and attaking when he had to get stoner.
Quite frankly his tactics by analysing stoner is that stoner REally hasn't been tested in a dogfight 1on1 and rossi exploited this and stoner well just had to suck up the pressure rossi was dishing out on him and cracked.
The passes were hard and i watched them 6-10 times now but they were excellent passing, only rossi has the balls for them and thats why stoner is upset that he got out hussled/and beaten up in the trenches.
for me this was one of vales ballsy's victorys with lots of Heart, and it just rattled stoner who was 0.7 - 1sec faster then rossi all weekend.
Great technical/race craft from rossi and his team they KNEW that the most important place they were lose time to stoner would be T3 part of the track (fast corner and acceleration parts to the finish line) and they minimised this by making the bike launch of the final corner and making the bike really good on the brakes limited stoners ability to overtake rossi. The tactic worked a treat!! - get in front and DON'T let stoner get in front more then a few corners as it be impossible to catch him afterwards!!
rossi is why we all call him a ALL TIME GREAT and others are just 'Great' it was simply a lesson to stoner showing him that this is why rossi is considered one of the greatest rider of all time
Quite frankly his tactics by analysing stoner is that stoner REally hasn't been tested in a dogfight 1on1 and rossi exploited this and stoner well just had to suck up the pressure rossi was dishing out on him and cracked.
The passes were hard and i watched them 6-10 times now but they were excellent passing, only rossi has the balls for them and thats why stoner is upset that he got out hussled/and beaten up in the trenches.
for me this was one of vales ballsy's victorys with lots of Heart, and it just rattled stoner who was 0.7 - 1sec faster then rossi all weekend.
Great technical/race craft from rossi and his team they KNEW that the most important place they were lose time to stoner would be T3 part of the track (fast corner and acceleration parts to the finish line) and they minimised this by making the bike launch of the final corner and making the bike really good on the brakes limited stoners ability to overtake rossi. The tactic worked a treat!! - get in front and DON'T let stoner get in front more then a few corners as it be impossible to catch him afterwards!!
rossi is why we all call him a ALL TIME GREAT and others are just 'Great' it was simply a lesson to stoner showing him that this is why rossi is considered one of the greatest rider of all time
Casey will learn as he goes along.,and it looks like the second part of the season will be a most fertile ground for that.
Surely this will be the beginning for some epic battles between the two of them.
Looks like the Ducati still can not match the agility of the Yamaha though has its own little advantage as well.
Hope Gibernau can get up there at some point though not likely in my view.
Surely this will be the beginning for some epic battles between the two of them.
Looks like the Ducati still can not match the agility of the Yamaha though has its own little advantage as well.
Hope Gibernau can get up there at some point though not likely in my view.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nunchaku @ Jul 21 2008, 02:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Casey will learn as he goes along.,and it looks like the second part of the season will be a most fertile ground for that.
Surely this will be the beginning for some epic battles between the two of them.
Looks like the Ducati still can not match the agility of the Yamaha though has its own little advantage as well.
Hope Gibernau can get up there at some point though not likely in my view.
Oddly, dani pedrosa is the rider most likely to be of assistance to casey now, and nicky hayden at least in qualifying even if they don't sort the pneumatic engine. I am unsure what colin edwards will do now.
Surely this will be the beginning for some epic battles between the two of them.
Looks like the Ducati still can not match the agility of the Yamaha though has its own little advantage as well.
Hope Gibernau can get up there at some point though not likely in my view.
Oddly, dani pedrosa is the rider most likely to be of assistance to casey now, and nicky hayden at least in qualifying even if they don't sort the pneumatic engine. I am unsure what colin edwards will do now.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 21 2008, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I am unsure what colin edwards will do now.
Not much now that the pension plan is sorted I guess...
Not much now that the pension plan is sorted I guess...
Lorenzo broke 2 bones in his foot. The guy's confidence must be shot to .....
just read this on autosport
Rossi: "Great race."
Stoner: "No, you can't race this way."
Rossi: "That's racing, Casey."
Stoner: "That's racing? Ok, we'll see."
just read this on autosport
Rossi: "Great race."
Stoner: "No, you can't race this way."
Rossi: "That's racing, Casey."
Stoner: "That's racing? Ok, we'll see."
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EDIT: you beat me vale.
First of all...brilliant race. Been missing these kind of races! However, what is potentially more exciting than what happened on the track is what happened off of it. Both Vale and Casey are FIRED UP and I expect to see more fireworks this season. We haven't seen a real rivalry since Gibby got punted into the gravel!!
I caught this on Autosport.com: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69369
"A brief conversation in parc ferme when Rossi attempted to shake hands with Stoner was caught on the BBC's live television coverage:
Rossi: "Great race."
Stoner: "No, you can't race this way."
Rossi: "That's racing, Casey."
Stoner: "That's racing? Ok, we'll see."
Casey has put the challenge out there and Rossi is loving every minute of it. This is the kind of stuff he's in MotoGP for. Shame we have to wait a few weeks till the next one!
First of all...brilliant race. Been missing these kind of races! However, what is potentially more exciting than what happened on the track is what happened off of it. Both Vale and Casey are FIRED UP and I expect to see more fireworks this season. We haven't seen a real rivalry since Gibby got punted into the gravel!!
I caught this on Autosport.com: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69369
"A brief conversation in parc ferme when Rossi attempted to shake hands with Stoner was caught on the BBC's live television coverage:
Rossi: "Great race."
Stoner: "No, you can't race this way."
Rossi: "That's racing, Casey."
Stoner: "That's racing? Ok, we'll see."
Casey has put the challenge out there and Rossi is loving every minute of it. This is the kind of stuff he's in MotoGP for. Shame we have to wait a few weeks till the next one!
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1- V. ROSSI...
WOW is all i can say... did the only thing he could...THAT was the most fantastic seminar on defensive riding ever...he knew if he let Stoner get in front the race would be done...
2- C. STONER...
good try but not good enough KID...i bout pissed myself when he ran it wide and into the dirt then down
and from what i've read and seen this morning is already ....... crying
come on chap..stiff upper lip, your wife's still hot.
3- C. VERMEULEN... great run..thank your tires
4- A. DOVIZIOSO... "Here, use my HONDA pen to sign on the dotted line"
5- N. HAYDEN... "Now where did i leave that Ducati contract?"
6- R. DE PUNIET... he "DIDN'T" crash or CRASH out anyone?
7- T. ELIAS... meh
8- B. SPIES... WOOHOO!! TOP TEN!! Good job dude, not get Capis seat
9- J. TOSELAND... good job
10- S. NAKANO.. meh
11- J. HACKING... good job..did better than WEST
12- S. GUINTOLI... meh
13- A. DE ANGELIS... broken thumb
14- C. EDWARDS... ummmm, well, the bike looked cool.
15- L. CAPIROSSI... give your seat to Ben
16 M. MELANDRI... Have a nice holiday
17 A. WEST... See you in WSS
Just in!.....WhoreHay Lorenzo was picked up this morning in the San Fransisco bay
...he just landed
2- C. STONER...
3- C. VERMEULEN... great run..thank your tires
4- A. DOVIZIOSO... "Here, use my HONDA pen to sign on the dotted line"
5- N. HAYDEN... "Now where did i leave that Ducati contract?"
6- R. DE PUNIET... he "DIDN'T" crash or CRASH out anyone?
7- T. ELIAS... meh
8- B. SPIES... WOOHOO!! TOP TEN!! Good job dude, not get Capis seat
9- J. TOSELAND... good job
10- S. NAKANO.. meh
11- J. HACKING... good job..did better than WEST
12- S. GUINTOLI... meh
13- A. DE ANGELIS... broken thumb
14- C. EDWARDS... ummmm, well, the bike looked cool.
15- L. CAPIROSSI... give your seat to Ben
16 M. MELANDRI... Have a nice holiday
17 A. WEST... See you in WSS
Just in!.....WhoreHay Lorenzo was picked up this morning in the San Fransisco bay
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jul 21 2008, 03:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just in!.....WhoreHay Lorenzo was picked up this morning in the San Fransisco bay
...he just landed
Now that's just cruel. Funny but cruel.
Now that's just cruel. Funny but cruel.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bikergirl @ Jul 21 2008, 07:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now that's just cruel. Funny but cruel.
would you expect any thing else from me?
would you expect any thing else from me?
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 21 2008, 09:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>still haven't seen the stoner off.
It was pretty much the same senario as Rossi taking out De Randy.."eh" at Assen .... He cam in behind Rossi too hot ..... only difference is Stoner avoided Rossi whereas Rossi got Randy ..... and he got up a lot quicker, without aid ( as Pinky likes to point out
... and hence salvaged a second place, whereas Rossi was relegated to the "fight of the century" ( judging from the Rossifan comments here
) with Melandri and Elias ...... salvaging a 2nd in itself was a pretty mean feat.
......
and I note someone on here predicted Stoner could crash and still afford to get up and win, based on his FP and Q times .... how wrong you were!
It was pretty much the same senario as Rossi taking out De Randy.."eh" at Assen .... He cam in behind Rossi too hot ..... only difference is Stoner avoided Rossi whereas Rossi got Randy ..... and he got up a lot quicker, without aid ( as Pinky likes to point out
and I note someone on here predicted Stoner could crash and still afford to get up and win, based on his FP and Q times .... how wrong you were!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jul 21 2008, 03:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>would you expect any thing else from me?
Yes. At the very least a photo of you holding up today's paper looking 25 and a scan of your birth certificate claiming you're 36. For starters.
Yes. At the very least a photo of you holding up today's paper looking 25 and a scan of your birth certificate claiming you're 36. For starters.
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Now the bikes are closer in terms of power, that's the first time anybody has battled with Stoner during his current 2007 form and speed and look what happens. It was also interesting during one of the on-board shots where they had Rossi's and Stoner's braking and throttle readings on screen: Rossi was up to full throttle on the corner exits and Stoner appeared to be full throttle earlier whilst still in the corner; you tell me MotoGP hasn't gone the way of F1 to an extent with electronics.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mstar @ Jul 21 2008, 10:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>rossi is why we all call him a ALL TIME GREAT and others are just 'Great' it was simply a lesson to stoner showing him that this is why rossi is considered one of the greatest rider of all time
Read my post above ^^ Stoners efforts were pretty good considering what happened with Rossi at Assen. I think you are forgetting a bit too much in your glory hunt there
Read my post above ^^ Stoners efforts were pretty good considering what happened with Rossi at Assen. I think you are forgetting a bit too much in your glory hunt there
