Is it now fact? Rossi the greatest

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Sep 11 2008, 02:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'll go one step further - if you want to check the archived results in motogp or wherever you will find that 10 to 15 years ago you were lucky to have the whole field finish on the same lap - it was common for guys to be lapped twice (this was due to the customer spec cheapo Yamahas filling up the grid).

The distance between the top few riders and the bottom was massive and racing is as close now as it’s ever been if not more so.

What we didn't have back then was hordes of fans jumping on the internet and lamenting something that didn't exist anyway (a bit like religion). To put my slant on it, close racing is when Vale wins, anything else sucks. It just shows that people cans be fans of a racer but not racing.
So, what you are saying is that MotoGP has developed and the overall quality of equipment and riders has improved, but as fans we aren't hardcore enough unless we appreciate the sport today when it looks like it did 20 years ago?
In case you havn't noticed this is they way most sports has developed and with them the public changes expectations. So what didn't excist in the stone age does exist today on many levels and areas of sports. I'm sure you were a dedicated fan of the sport 15 years ago and enjoyed what ever racing there was, but to characterize those that enjoy close racing as less than real fans of the sport proves only that you are stuck in the stone age while others have moved on to the present.
I for one want to feel a tiny part of the thrill I had my self when active in racing and fighting for positions with one or two others. I can enjoy watching a fast rider alone as well, but as you know, how you feel the bike move under you are very different from what we as viewer are able to pick up from the screen. So pardon me for "demanding" close racing as it has been so many examples of in the last 5 years.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Sep 11 2008, 01:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'll go one step further - if you want to check the archived results in motogp or wherever you will find that 10 to 15 years ago you were lucky to have the whole field finish on the same lap - it was common for guys to be lapped twice (this was due to the customer spec cheapo Yamahas filling up the grid).

The distance between the top few riders and the bottom was massive and racing is as close now as it’s ever been if not more so.

What we didn't have back then was hordes of fans jumping on the internet and lamenting something that didn't exist anyway (a bit like religion). To put my slant on it, close racing is when Vale wins, anything else sucks. It just shows that people cans be fans of a racer but not racing.
well i think that statement is just anti rossi bollocks. my post was in response to lads post where it implied run away races are a new thing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Sep 11 2008, 01:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>if you want to check the archived results in motogp or wherever you will find that 10 to 15 years agoMerely looking at results will never tell you the full story of a race.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Sep 11 2008, 09:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>well i think that statement is just anti rossi bollocks. my post was in response to lads post where it implied run away races are a new thing.

I seem to remember a number of riders consistently at the pointy end 10-15 years ago: lawson, gardner, rainey, schwants, doohan...there were even some supporting cast who mixed it up: mamola, magee, kocinski, creville, barros, sarron...but sure I probabaly have rose coloured glasses on for those years.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lad @ Sep 12 2008, 01:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I seem to remember a number of riders consistently at the pointy end 10-15 years ago: lawson, gardner, rainey, schwants, doohan...there were even some supporting cast who mixed it up: mamola, magee, kocinski, creville, barros, sarron...but sure I probabaly have rose coloured glasses on for those years.
you do mate. rainey and schwants used to run away from the rest of the pack regully as did doohan criv, rossi sete or biaggi then stoner . nothing new.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Sep 11 2008, 11:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>well i think that statement is just anti rossi bollocks. my post was in response to lads post where it implied run away races are a new thing.

Not anti Rossi bollocks, just Rossi fans who complain when he doesn't win. Remember the movie rollerball? The 1975 version not the extremely puss filled remake (I spit even typing that). When Jonathon becomes bigger than the sport itself? Whilst the analogy doesn't bear close scrutiny because rollerball is about pointlessness and motogp is about motorcycle racing a few points are worthy of mention.

Rossi is the biggest thing in motogp and a lot of fans are on the sure thing and I feel pay little deference to the sport itself. Racing is not about predictable outcomes and having another winner is not a crime. The ridiculous conspiracy theory rubbish that is accepted as fact because someone else wins is actually more ludicrous than lex’s conspiracies. The difference is that Lex doesn’t run with the mob. Rossi has become bigger than motogp and Dorna would burn up quite a few neurons trying to work out the marketing v the sport itself issue.

I do apologise for slipping that in but a lot of the threads still carry this popular notion that Rossi is the only worthy winner (to Casey, Nicki’s & KRJR’s discredit). Anyone who goes out there and rides a bike can be a winner and worthy winner - boring (I never find it boring) racing is because the guy in second isn’t going fast enough, not because the guy at the front ran away. Blaming the winner is a Stoner phenomenon. Blaming someone for winning is the antithesis of racing and anyone who engages in this has fallen victim to the man over the sport syndrome (i.e. rollerball or Rossiball)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Goatboy @ Sep 12 2008, 03:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Merely looking at results will never tell you the full story of a race.

I started watching every race and I make my annual pilgrimage and have done so since the time of Wayne Gardner, try about 1987, I turned 18 that year. Just because I only discovered this forum this year doesn't mean I started watching races this year.

I make the point that the ratio of fought races to runaway races has remained similar over the years however the whole field finishing on the same lap has improved dramatically. You have to be on the same lap to have a snowflakes chance in hell of putting up any credible fight. It's not about "merely" looking at results (although it is probably unwise not to consider these) but about the racing itself - the whole race and not a Youtube highlights package. I still have most of the races on VHS tapes and everything since the age of DVD burners on DVD. No significant change.

The idea that all 30 riders (the older larger fields) fighting closely to the last lap where the worthy one lunges across the line followed by something resembling a Rugby scrum is so delusional it competes with 9/11 conspiracy nuts. Honestly it is unhealthy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Sep 11 2008, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So, what you are saying is that MotoGP has developed and the overall quality of equipment and riders has improved, but as fans we aren't hardcore enough unless we appreciate the sport today when it looks like it did 20 years ago?
In case you havn't noticed this is they way most sports has developed and with them the public changes expectations. So what didn't excist in the stone age does exist today on many levels and areas of sports. I'm sure you were a dedicated fan of the sport 15 years ago and enjoyed what ever racing there was, but to characterize those that enjoy close racing as less than real fans of the sport proves only that you are stuck in the stone age while others have moved on to the present.
I for one want to feel a tiny part of the thrill I had my self when active in racing and fighting for positions with one or two others. I can enjoy watching a fast rider alone as well, but as you know, how you feel the bike move under you are very different from what we as viewer are able to pick up from the screen. So pardon me for "demanding" close racing as it has been so many examples of in the last 5 years.

Sorry I missed you fish from Babylon. My answer for you is short and I know that you are one who loves discourse replete with circular arguments and flowery descriptives.

When expectations and the truth clash, stick with the truth – it can set you free.

Also see previous post - blame the guy running second not the winner, I'm just not smart enough to see how blaming the winner works. Actually this week the Special Olympics are on, and I accept that in some circumstances winning isn't everything, but I'd rather watch Bolt do the 100/200 metres than some one legged guy. Winning is a cool spectator sport.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Sep 13 2008, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry I missed you fish from Babylon. My answer for you is short and I know that you are one who loves discourse replete with circular arguments and flowery descriptives.
I think you are being somewhat unfair on babel whom I have found to be a fan of the racing and who actually does rate casey stoner, just not as highly as valentino rossi which is perhaps not unreasonable at this point in time.

I do agree with you in general that despite the manifold criticism of casey stoner's character, appearance , casual utterances, general demeanour etc his main flaw for many has been his propensity to defeat valentino rossi both in individual races and for the 2007 world championship. Unfortunately for you and me he seems to be working quite strongly to eradicate this flaw in recent races .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Sep 13 2008, 07:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not anti Rossi bollocks, just Rossi fans who complain when he doesn't win. Remember the movie rollerball? The 1975 version not the extremely puss filled remake (I spit even typing that). When Jonathon becomes bigger than the sport itself? Whilst the analogy doesn't bear close scrutiny because rollerball is about pointlessness and motogp is about motorcycle racing a few points are worthy of mention.

Rossi is the biggest thing in motogp and a lot of fans are on the sure thing and I feel pay little deference to the sport itself. Racing is not about predictable outcomes and having another winner is not a crime. The ridiculous conspiracy theory rubbish that is accepted as fact because someone else wins is actually more ludicrous than lex’s conspiracies. The difference is that Lex doesn’t run with the mob. Rossi has become bigger than motogp and Dorna would burn up quite a few neurons trying to work out the marketing v the sport itself issue.

I do apologise for slipping that in but a lot of the threads still carry this popular notion that Rossi is the only worthy winner (to Casey, Nicki’s & KRJR’s discredit). Anyone who goes out there and rides a bike can be a winner and worthy winner - boring (I never find it boring) racing is because the guy in second isn’t going fast enough, not because the guy at the front ran away. Blaming the winner is a Stoner phenomenon. Blaming someone for winning is the antithesis of racing and anyone who engages in this has fallen victim to the man over the sport syndrome (i.e. rollerball or Rossiball)



I started watching every race and I make my annual pilgrimage and have done so since the time of Wayne Gardner, try about 1987, I turned 18 that year. Just because I only discovered this forum this year doesn't mean I started watching races this year.

I make the point that the ratio of fought races to runaway races has remained similar over the years however the whole field finishing on the same lap has improved dramatically. You have to be on the same lap to have a snowflakes chance in hell of putting up any credible fight. It's not about "merely" looking at results (although it is probably unwise not to consider these) but about the racing itself - the whole race and not a Youtube highlights package. I still have most of the races on VHS tapes and everything since the age of DVD burners on DVD. No significant change.

The idea that all 30 riders (the older larger fields) fighting closely to the last lap where the worthy one lunges across the line followed by something resembling a Rugby scrum is so delusional it competes with 9/11 conspiracy nuts. Honestly it is unhealthy.

I'm healthy now (they've let me out) and I can't see anything dodgy about 9/11...unless some jesus lookalike living in a cave really did shut down the US air defence system...yeah right oh hang on wait that's still the official story

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Sep 3 2008, 04:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just like "rain is an equalizer"
Edit: You are right Tom. It's oversimplified but not all wrong.
I don't think neither west, vermulen og guintoli are shining in the wet because it's an equalizer, I think they are rain specialists. Truths aren't carved in stone for ever and with todays Motogp bikes, power is a smaller issue than before and the Rain being an equalizer is not as valid as it used to be. But I still think rain is an equalizer for some, those with less power and and more ability than most. It doesn't make every rain specialist a potential world champ, but taking the specialists out of the picture you might very well discover a few up and comming or underrated riders that do better on rain than in dry because the equipment does play less of a role in wet.

I used to race in the most underpowerd series and raced together with more powerfull bikes. It was interesting to see that guysin that other series that beat us with 30 sec on dry were typically beaten by the best of us in the wet. The

Andy Roo I never find it boring either, but its the team in second that has to work their ..... off, not just the rider.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Sep 13 2008, 04:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The ridiculous conspiracy theory rubbish that is accepted as fact because someone else wins is actually more ludicrous than lex’s conspiracies.

I do apologise for slipping that in but a lot of the threads still carry this popular notion that Rossi is the only worthy winner (to Casey, Nicki’s & KRJR’s discredit).

That's b/c my conspiracies aren't that crazy to any one who understands the big picture. I'm sure they sound ludicrous to 90% of the fans on here b/c they show up once every two weeks to watch the bikes go round.

1. 3 different formulas in 7 years
2. 3 new manufacturers; 2 already retired
3. grid sizes 50% smaller than 7 years ago
4. cost increases of 10x
5. 10% viewership declines per annum since the 800s
6. CEV was forced to sell the rights in July of 2006; Bridgepoint (the new owner) has seen their investment seriously impaired in just 2 seasons.
7. 1 tire crisis that caused 3 months of emergency technical meetings

People who think the sport is running the same as always are the people who are ludicrous. Don't like my version of the changes? Fine. But if you're arguing the ceremony of MotoGP is more or less the same, you should save your breath and your reputation.

I also lament that people don't recognize Stoner as a legitimate champion and I'm frustrated that for the second year in a row the champion hasn't had a proper chance at a defense because of the governing body.

The change to the 800s was transparent and affected all of the competitors equally. That's all I can ask for. Hayden's defense was legitimate and disappointing. Stoner was the deserving new champion. I can't say the same about this season. One main competitor was given an unprecedented favor from the governing body for the sole purpose of improving viewership. Unacceptable. Casey cannot blame his failure to repeat on the governing body, but he can certainly cry foul with a legitimate case. As far as we know, the governing body has never handed out favors to change the odds of a repeat champion.

I don't care what people say. This season is a huge loss for all fans who love genuine competition. I think it is very clear that Rossi on Bridgestones would never have passed a council vote. I think Ezy's unilateral reactionary policies have hurt the authenticity of the sport.

Vale has always been the best. He didn't need to abuse his power to lobby DORNA to provide him with better equipment.

How does that saying go? It's not your hardships that define you, it's how you respond to them.

Nice one, Vale.

Just a quick pole:

Who here's interest and experience with bikes and racing is limited to "...show[ing] up once every two weeks to watch the bikes go round."

Thought so...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Sep 12 2008, 02:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>you do mate. rainey and schwants used to run away from the rest of the pack regully as did doohan criv, rossi sete or biaggi then stoner . nothing new.

I think its even more impressive to run away from the field nowadays with rider aids, it is alot harder to do.

Rossi and Stoner at times have shown them all up and if this was like the old days they would be lapping the whole field easily.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Sep 14 2008, 12:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's b/c my conspiracies aren't that crazy to any one who understands the big picture. I'm sure they sound ludicrous to 90% of the fans on here b/c they show up once every two weeks to watch the bikes go round.

Don't like my version of the changes? Fine. But if you're arguing the ceremony of MotoGP is more or less the same, you should save your breath and your reputation.

Lex, I dig your theories - actually really like them, well thought out and all of that - the Rossi - Jonathon paradigm is more or less what you say as well, he is bigger than the sport and paraphrasing myself it must cause Dorna some consternation when regulating because he is the cash cow of motogp.

I've worked for the Government for many years and I've seen policy made, that Manchurian management school mindset is unbelievable. Not conspiracy but gentle shoves in the direction of ones choice but the butterfly wings effect takes place.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (an4rew @ Sep 14 2008, 01:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think its even more impressive to run away from the field nowadays with rider aids, it is alot harder to do.

Rossi and Stoner at times have shown them all up and if this was like the old days they would be lapping the whole field easily.

Good point - wouldn't that be sad.

And getting back to the point Rossi is the greatest rider, but he's not the only rider. When people beat him it isn't because they are bad, they are very very good.

Rossi is great. His speed on 500s, 990s and 800s is beyond argument. GOAT? Can't be answered. All the rest is mental masturbation.

When humans develop the ability to travel in time, maybe we'll know. Until then, it's' all so much forum .........

But he's damn fast, you have to give him that.

For me the race of Vale yesterday (and a lot of others from before) in indy shows why he is the gratest of his era .

He not only didn`t have to attack, but also he had to make sure that he playes it as save as possible and only try to keep in touch with casey.

So What did Rossi do,?
Nothing just What he always does, taking it easy for a few laps, just to get knowing the break points and... and then begin to overtake and do what he does best,leading and winning the race.

He made it a nice fight , even He could lose a lot more than he won, but he just had to do it!
I think at least 8/10 of people would take it easy if they were in his position with his points gap.

For any reason he didn`t take it easy , even after overtaking Stoner , and making enough gap with him. I,m now glad that he did that, but at that time found it a bit stupid too.

So that tells me once again that Rossi is certainly the best of his era.

Rossi deserves huge praise, we are pretty lucky to see it first hand, the day Ago's record was finally surpassed. historic stuff alright, congrats Valentino!

....and we have at least another two years to go, truly great times!