I heard this weird thing about Vinales

Goonwriter · May 19, 2018

The words that usually accompany Jack by people in the know are potential, natural talent, which these days seem to be measured by a computer.

Ramon Aurin
We have the data from Dani, from Marc, and we know where Jack loses time compared to them," Aurin explains.

"Some riders will lose out to the top riders in braking, acceleration, corner speed … everywhere, basically. The top riders are just a little bit better in everything. But with Jack, it's easier to see. His acceleration is good, and his braking points, it's like Marc, as good as Marc, and Marc is a three-times MotoGP champion.

"It's all corner speed for Jack at the moment, and he's missing maybe a little bit of confidence in the front tyre to carry the corner speed that the data says he maybe can. But this is experience, and that is why I think he has another step to make. It's one he can do. It's not like he's reached the limit of his potential; he's nowhere close to this."

Gabbarini said pretty much the same thing, throwing in risk as a positive attribute to go fast on the Ducati, ending by saying if Jack can put these together quickly he should go fast on the Ducati. Seems to me he's put it together quicker than anyone thought.

On the down side i think Jack struggles with setup, however he is still young and eager to learn. In his first year in VDS his FP improvement was fairly slow. This year in FP's he seems to improve relative to the rest on the field so hopefully he's able to give more useful feedback now. If he can just find those last 5 laps from the tyres...

I'd like to see the contracts go
Jack - Ducati
JLo - Suzuki
Ianonne - HRC
Pedro - Aprillia
Petrucci - KTM
Rabat - Pramac

As for Rins, I don't think it's a coincidence that Suzuki's fortunes have waxed and waned with presence/absence. The feedback he gives the team is probably highly valued. If JLo moves there they could move forward with real confidence.

Just saw birdman's post. I'll leave it up anyway.

Gaz · May 19, 2018

birdman said:
Millers ‘lucky’ pole. Now that’s a good one from the armchair as it gets. Let’s review: Miller, Crashslow and Marquez fit slicks in dicey conditions. Cal gives up, Marquez, the man who sets the standard, pulls in as well. The lesser talented second tier Miller stays out there, initially 5 seconds or more off the pace, slowly builds heat into tires somehow without crashing, then has the talent to put in an astounding lap. It’s as rare as hens teeth seeing Marquez out ridden and peeps say yawn, move along nothing to see here?
.

That pole lap reminded me of the Kiyonari BSB pole lap, a lap spoken of in somewhat awe to those that had seen it for the sheer skill and balls under the circumstances.

I do not think Jack will ever win the World Title (if he does Birdy, I will shout you a case) but that is no slight on Jack either as I do believe that he has what it takes to be in MotoGP for many years.

I look at him this way.

Some say he is undeserving but he won a race before Crutchlow, Ianonne and Vinales which means he has more race wins than many who had been in MotoGp for far longer.

He has more pole positions than many who have been in the sport for a while.

For mine, I put Miller on the factory squad although could see a 1 year offer for Petrucci with Miller then getting the 2019 in Pramac with the 2020 contracts based on where results on equal gear.

Pramac is non-factory in name only as afterall, when Miller got pole the factory squad went bananas which you do not see with other manufacturers ........ they are a 4 bike team

pyeman · May 19, 2018

Gaz said:
Give him a carbon swingarm and watch the results

Of how carbon splinters and what forces are needed to snap it

But I have to admit to having a perverse like of Crutchlow ............. infuriating, loud mouthed, publicity seeking ........... but for mine he is always worth the watch

I'm just glad to see Crashy back...i don't know who's been wearing his leathers and helmet and pretending to be him for a while but it's good to see normal service resumed.

JPSLotus · May 19, 2018

birdman said:
Millers ‘lucky’ pole. Now that’s a good one from the armchair as it gets. Let’s review: Miller, Crashslow and Marquez fit slicks in dicey conditions. Cal gives up, Marquez, the man who sets the standard, pulls in as well. The lesser talented second tier Miller stays out there, initially 5 seconds or more off the pace, slowly builds heat into tires somehow without crashing, then has the talent to put in an astounding lap. It’s as rare as hens teeth seeing Marquez out ridden and peeps say yawn, move along nothing to see here?

He took a gamble that paid off, it was luck, nothing more. More impressive was he didn't crash and injure himself. Ultimately pole position meant .... all since he couldn't convert it even with that grid advantage into a win or podium.

Let me know when he pulls the same thing off that MM did at the Sachsenring with the slicks switch in wet conditions in the middle of a grand prix and I'll have a different assessment of him. Let's face it, at Argentina, taking away the ........ penalties he could not match MM's pace period.

MM is the measuring stick and Miller ain't in the same league.

This is literally the same stuff the Brits go on about with Cuntslow and any other British rider who comes into GP. Blinded by nationality.

Gaz · May 19, 2018

JPSLotus said:
MM is the measuring stick and Miller ain't in the same league.

This is literally the same stuff the Brits go on about with Cuntslow and any other British rider who comes into GP. Blinded by nationality.

So what you are saying is that nobody aside from Marquez should be there ............. as afterall, he is the measuring stick and not one person matches up.

Sure Dovi got close but hey, fell short.

There are those blinded by nationality, there are those blinded by hatred and there are some blinded by the different.

Using your guide, Casey Stoner would have been thrown out after one year and yet you admit to being a fan .............. sometimes things take time and opportunity before we can fully judge or appreciate

michaelm · May 19, 2018

JPSLotus said:
He took a gamble that paid off, it was luck, nothing more. More impressive was he didn't crash and injure himself. Ultimately pole position meant .... all since he couldn't convert it even with that grid advantage into a win or podium.

Let me know when he pulls the same thing off that MM did at the Sachsenring with the slicks switch in wet conditions in the middle of a grand prix and I'll have a different assessment of him. Let's face it, at Argentina, taking away the ........ penalties he could not match MM's pace period.

MM is the measuring stick and Miller ain't in the same league.

This is literally the same stuff the Brits go on about with Cuntslow and any other British rider who comes into GP. Blinded by nationality.

Most of the Aussies on here have acknowledged nationalism where Jack is concerned, and obviously he is no MM, no-one is, but if the criterion for signing a rider is someone who can beat MM there will be a lot of unoccupied bikes on the grid.

I think MM could have won the race Jack won if he was not riding for the championship, but he didn't because he didn't want to risk crashing, and Jack managing to stay on the bike and win with bikes/equipment equalised by the conditions is traditionally a sign of a rider who in dry races may be hampered by his equipment, and in particular that his crashes in the dry may have been related to over-riding non-competitive equipment a la Stoner at LCR. Stoner did have the dry pole and the close second in the dry on a satellite bike of course, but he was known as Crashy Stoner before he fortuitously got the Ducati factory ride, and no-one had much in the way of expectations of him before the first race in 2007.

I think it is harsh to judge him for not converting a wet pole into a dry win, 1st on the grid is not much of an advantage in motogp, and he wasn't allowed to take advantage of his second slice of luck/display of good judgement as the case may be with the other riders being allowed to redress their errors in judgement and make the correct tire choice as he had.

michaelm · May 19, 2018

Gaz said:
So what you are saying is that nobody aside from Marquez should be there ............. as afterall, he is the measuring stick and not one person matches up.

Sure Dovi got close but hey, fell short.

There are those blinded by nationality, there are those blinded by hatred and there are some blinded by the different.

Using your guide, Casey Stoner would have been thrown out after one year and yet you admit to being a fan .............. sometimes things take time and opportunity before we can fully judge or appreciate

Yes Dovi should have been chucked out of motogp, he couldn't beat Stoner when he was riding for HRC, and his only race win prior to recently on the factory Ducati was in the wet.

Gaz · May 19, 2018

michaelm said:
Yes Dovi should have been chucked out of motogp, he couldn't beat Stoner when he was riding for HRC, and his only race win prior to recently on the factory Ducati was in the wet.

Funny you say Dovi Mike as there is no better example (recent years) of time being the important factor.

To be fair, Dovi has never looked a title challenger for a title until 2017 (and again, big kudos to MDubs and Barry for their early tip) and really was little spoken of as such. He was always seen as 'that next level down' but things aligned, time allowed him to build continuity with a team, with the bike and gain confidence that he had a longer term future ........ the result was Marquez crapping himself a little as the challenge was very real and very close.

But without the trust in other teams, the belief of managers and doors opening, Dovi would have been cast to the same scrap heap as others are today.

Funny world

Jumkie · May 19, 2018

birdman said:
Most likely Petrucci moves up and his pulling aside for Rossi helps because it means he might understand map 8. Out of interest those condemning Petrucci wouldn’t be employing a double standard on Lorenzo? Personally I think JLo did the right thing, because it was real. Much as I like Dovi, can’t pass you’re teammate then simply not world champ.

Well brother, I gotta disagree and point out an important distinction, thing is Petrucci and Rossi were not teammates, they were not even riding for the same manufacturer. Pulling over in the way he did was a big .... you to the principles of proper rival competition, no doubt he signed that ridiculous petition for riders to pull over for Rossi with his actions. Thank Dog for Ant West! An Aussie of principle. No ........, I've sent that bloke a donation to his racing effort. That's not a double standard my friend when we're talking 'team orders' by your employer running the same 'team' vs some rogue activist yahoo pulling over for a guy who (on principle) should have been suspended from the race.

Second, Dovi could have likely passed Lorenzo, but it would have required a high risk, perhaps even contact, if they go down ala Iannone, we'd all be crucifying Dovi. And as a point of fact, Dovi did get by Lorenzo. The way it happened tells me something about the way Lorenzo was riding to keep Dovi behind. Lorenzo used his skill to block Dovi at Valencia with a pace that was unsustainable, he had done it at Malaysia and almost went down because he was on the limit to keep Dovi behind too, and he did it again at Jerez this year with stupid soft tires that were dropping off a cliff. Lorenzo has acted like a ...., he ignored spectacularly his employer's demands; moreover, we can't even say he has redeemed himself with performance because he's been ...... I'm glad it appears Ducati haven't taken this laying down.

And I'll add for good measure Compa, Ducati should have written in some performance clauses to the compensation package. ...... negotiation on their part given Lorenzo was desperate to leave Yamaha, Ducati had some leverage, they overpaid. Argentina was embarrassing. If you saw Ducati team principal talking about the second seat, he made it clear, Lorenzo is on the chop block. They probably could have tolerated Lorenzo's .... performance but the way he thumbed his nose in a crucial moment contesting a championship is, I hope, going to have consequence. You should be happy Birdy, Lorenzo's .... behavior looks to be tabling a 50/50 chance that your boy Jacky gets a full factory seat. I say good, .... Lorenzo, he can eat a .....

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

michaelm · May 19, 2018

Jumkie said:
Well brother, I gotta disagree and point out an important distinction, thing is Petrucci and Rossi were not teammates, they were not even riding for the same manufacturer. Pulling over in the way he did was a big .... you to the principles of proper rival competition, no doubt he signed that ridiculous petition for riders to pull over for Rossi with his actions. Thank Dog for Ant West! An Aussie of principle. No ........, I've sent that bloke a donation to his racing effort. That's not a double standard my friend when we're talking 'team orders' by your employer running the same 'team' vs some rogue activist yahoo pulling over for a guy who (on principle) should have been suspended from the race.

Second, Dovi could have likely passed Lorenzo, but it would have required a high risk, perhaps even contact, if they go down ala Iannone, we'd all be crucifying Dovi. And as a point of fact, Dovi did get by Lorenzo. The way it happened tells me something about the way Lorenzo was riding to keep Dovi behind. Lorenzo used his skill to block Dovi at Valencia with a pace that was unsustainable, he had done it at Malaysia and almost went down because he was on the limit to keep Dovi behind too, and he did it again at Jerez this year with stupid soft tires that were dropping off a cliff. Lorenzo has acted like a ...., he ignored spectacularly his employer's demands; moreover, we can't even say he has redeemed himself with performance because he's been ...... I'm glad it appears Ducati haven't taken this laying down.

And I'll add for good measure Compa, Ducati should have written in some performance clauses to the compensation package. ...... negotiation on their part given Lorenzo was desperate to leave Yamaha, Ducati had some leverage, they overpaid. Argentina was embarrassing. If you saw Ducati team principal talking about the second seat, he made it clear, Lorenzo is on the chop block. They probably could have tolerated Lorenzo's .... performance but the way he thumbed his nose in a crucial moment contesting a championship is, I hope, going to have consequence. You should be happy Birdy, Lorenzo's .... behavior looks to be tabling a 50/50 chance that your boy Jacky gets a full factory seat. I say good, .... Lorenzo, he can eat a .....

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

I thought he should have let Dovi by in the circumstance, and even though Jorge was the guy I had been going for since Stoner’s retirement I stopped watching the race, before either rider went down actually, because there was no good result for me, even Lorenzo winning the race would have brought me no pleasure. Your attitude is likely and rightly affected by the Pedrosa/Hayden incident, in which Dani not only didn’t cede position to his championship leading team-mate but torpedoed him out of the race.

I think Birdman’s alternative position ie no ceding position to anyone ever is defensible though, particularly if your attitude was formed by following Mick Doohan as mine was and his may have been. No one ceded position to Mick in the last 2 races of 1992 when 4 extra points would have won him the title, and as I recall he didn’t expect or ask anyone to do so.

birdman · May 19, 2018

Jumkie said:
Well brother, I gotta disagree and point out an important distinction, thing is Petrucci and Rossi were not teammates, they were not even riding for the same manufacturer. Pulling over in the way he did was a big .... you to the principles of proper rival competition, no doubt he signed that ridiculous petition for riders to pull over for Rossi with his actions. Thank Dog for Ant West! An Aussie of principle. No ........, I've sent that bloke a donation to his racing effort. That's not a double standard my friend when we're talking 'team orders' by your employer running the same 'team' vs some rogue activist yahoo pulling over for a guy who (on principle) should have been suspended from the race.

Second, Dovi could have likely passed Lorenzo, but it would have required a high risk, perhaps even contact, if they go down ala Iannone, we'd all be crucifying Dovi. And as a point of fact, Dovi did get by Lorenzo. The way it happened tells me something about the way Lorenzo was riding to keep Dovi behind. Lorenzo used his skill to block Dovi at Valencia with a pace that was unsustainable, he had done it at Malaysia and almost went down because he was on the limit to keep Dovi behind too, and he did it again at Jerez this year with stupid soft tires that were dropping off a cliff. Lorenzo has acted like a ...., he ignored spectacularly his employer's demands; moreover, we can't even say he has redeemed himself with performance because he's been ...... I'm glad it appears Ducati haven't taken this laying down.

And I'll add for good measure Compa, Ducati should have written in some performance clauses to the compensation package. ...... negotiation on their part given Lorenzo was desperate to leave Yamaha, Ducati had some leverage, they overpaid. Argentina was embarrassing. If you saw Ducati team principal talking about the second seat, he made it clear, Lorenzo is on the chop block. They probably could have tolerated Lorenzo's .... performance but the way he thumbed his nose in a crucial moment contesting a championship is, I hope, going to have consequence. You should be happy Birdy, Lorenzo's .... behavior looks to be tabling a 50/50 chance that your boy Jacky gets a full factory seat. I say good, .... Lorenzo, he can eat a .....

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

I’d rather they all ride like Lorenzo, ie selfishly for themselves, than like Petrucci who picks and chooses. Riders like Petrucci devalue the championship to me. It’s one thing Motogp has always had over F1, no team orders. The sport has been based on wanting to beat everyone out there, especially your teammate.

Lorenzo pissed me off no end pulling his finger out with that sudden late season pace, coincidentally just when Dovi was in with a shot. But that’s because I’m a Dovi fan. Neutral observers I would guess didn’t care one way or the other. I remember Pov citing team orders were in play at Sepang when clearly they were not, at least not for Lorenzo. He is a ...., but then I’m sure Marquez fans would be livid if Ducati team orders decided the championship, and I wouldn’t blame them. I think the irony is Ducati will go for Petrucci over Miller because Petrucci will pull aside and Miller likely won’t, or at least is more unpredictable.

Gaz · May 19, 2018

birdman said:
I think the irony is Ducati will go for Petrucci over Miller because Petrucci will pull aside and Miller likely won’t, or at least is more unpredictable.

Interesting question (for all).

If Ducati were to do that, does that not then mean that Ducati are thinking for Dovi and not the team?

Does that mean that they are doing no different to what many accuse yamaha of in the era?

I admit that I am concerned for Miller for the same reasons as for me, Miller is a racer who wants results which may not play well if you have a clear defined #1

birdman · May 19, 2018

JPSLotus said:
He took a gamble that paid off, it was luck, nothing more. More impressive was he didn't crash and injure himself. Ultimately pole position meant .... all since he couldn't convert it even with that grid advantage into a win or podium.

Let me know when he pulls the same thing off that MM did at the Sachsenring with the slicks switch in wet conditions in the middle of a grand prix and I'll have a different assessment of him. Let's face it, at Argentina, taking away the ........ penalties he could not match MM's pace period.

MM is the measuring stick and Miller ain't in the same league.

This is literally the same stuff the Brits go on about with Cuntslow and any other British rider who comes into GP. Blinded by nationality.

Man it’s going to be hard to chase these shifting goalposts but I’ll give it a crack. I’m happily blinded by nationality. I don’t think Ducati are though. They apparently see something in Miller. History indicates they took a punt on Stoner, so I ain’t going to argue with them.

Marquez is the measuring stick? I’m not arguing for Honda to replace Marquez with Miller. Since you felt compelled to bring it up, then I’d argue, strictly speaking, it’s Rossi. Marquez hasn’t surpassed him at this point. Rossi entered the class on a factory backed private team. Marquez walked straight into the most well funded and most successful team in modern gp history. One up for Rossi. It just happened to be on a 500cc two stroke. Two up. After a meer 3 championships, with many more garanteed on the V5, Rossi picked up sticks and went off to Yamaha which were a bit of a basket case at that time. Like him or not, am I’m clearly a not, it was a ...... ballsy move. He had no idea Yamaha could pull it together. 3 up on Marquez. Rossi then beats the younger brigade on yet another class change 800cc. We will have to wait and see if and when Marquez faces such a challenge if he can better that, or keep riding around at 39 when he has absolutely nothing to prove.

Holypuck · May 20, 2018

birdman said:
Makes no difference if peeps think Miller is overrated or not, the people that matter ie Ducati rate him and he is almost garanteed a factory bike regardless.

Most likely Petrucci moves up and his pulling aside for Rossi helps because it means he might understand map 8. Out of interest those condemning Petrucci wouldn’t be employing a double standard on Lorenzo? Personally I think JLo did the right thing, because it was real. Much as I like Dovi, can’t pass you’re teammate then simply not world champ.

Millers ‘lucky’ pole. Now that’s a good one from the armchair as it gets. Let’s review: Miller, Crashslow and Marquez fit slicks in dicey conditions. Cal gives up, Marquez, the man who sets the standard, pulls in as well. The lesser talented second tier Miller stays out there, initially 5 seconds or more off the pace, slowly builds heat into tires somehow without crashing, then has the talent to put in an astounding lap. It’s as rare as hens teeth seeing Marquez out ridden and peeps say yawn, move along nothing to see here?

Standing track side watching Miller lead the Australian Grand Prix at Phillip Island, knowing the history of the place with Gardner, Doohan and Stoner you might have to forgive me for cheering on Miller. I rate the guy, he has shown flashes he now needs to bring the consistency. If nothing else if he can provide the occasional competition to Marquez dominance of the sport it will be a good thing. The current yardstick is likely the goat, with Yamaha and Lorenzo busy screwing themselves up, and Zarco off to a second tier ride ANY competition for Marquez will be welcome in my book.

WORD.

synn · May 20, 2018

Miller gets a 19 bike next year no matter what. That ought to make him happy after getting leftovers from Honda for a while. Plus, he likes it at Pramac.

The strong likelihood is for Petrux to move to the factory, not because he is head and shoulders above Miller or because he’s Italian, but because he has had two years under his belt developing the current spec Desmocedici and that’s a skill they can really use within the factory team (and not waste time developing special seats for J.Lo).

Miller is still young and if he puts in good performances on a GP19 next year, he will definitely get an opportunity next year.

synn · May 20, 2018

Just finished watching Moto2 warmup.
Mir is going to MotoGP waaaay before Mini Marquez.

Gaz · May 20, 2018

synn said:
Miller gets a 19 bike next year no matter what. That ought to make him happy after getting leftovers from Honda for a while. Plus, he likes it at Pramac.

The strong likelihood is for Petrux to move to the factory, not because he is head and shoulders above Miller or because he’s Italian, but because he has had two years under his belt developing the current spec Desmocedici and that’s a skill they can really use within the factory team (and not waste time developing special seats for J.Lo).

Miller is still young and if he puts in good performances on a GP19 next year, he will definitely get an opportunity next year.

One thing that is true (from an observation point) - is that Ducati do fully support their #2 team.

As I said elsewhere, they are the only manufacturer who genuinely seems to be a 4 bike factory team (were such a thing to truly exist).

synn · May 20, 2018

Gaz said:
One thing that is true (from an observation point) - is that Ducati do fully support their #2 team.

As I said elsewhere, they are the only manufacturer who genuinely seems to be a 4 bike factory team (were such a thing to truly exist).

True. Something KTM will replicate next year as well.
The true “Private” spirit is rapidly dying in MotoGP, but if you look at where MarcVDS and Avintia are, why wouldn’t you want to be more like Pramac?

Theo · May 20, 2018

Gaz said:
Few available riders .......... but even then one could ask the question that after being stung twice with big dollar spends that have produced nothing, would Ducati even pursue a highly expensive rider?

No doubt Dovi is getting expensive now but they would have gotten him at a bargain to start and the combination of the two has increased his value -- as a business you can cope with that.

Used to be able to play (had a handicap of 5) but then my eyesight gave up (should have listened to mum all those years back) and I simply got bored with it.

That said ........... a tv sport it aint lol

Best I ever got was a handicap of 12, but then I did play twice a week, regardless of the weather, can't play atm with this dumb arm, no rotation and only a 2/3rds swing. :devil:

I'd like to see Marc VDS with Suzuki.

Keshav · May 20, 2018

JPSLotus said:
I played golf for a long time, it's very much a sport. Making this kind of comment is ignorant.

One of the most mentally grueling sports I've ever played. There is a lot of physicality required to play professionally and unless you've played it's hard to appreciate how good those guys are and what they can do to a golf ball.

Just having the piss dude. I used to caddy when I was a kid. I've mentioned this before, that KR Sr. has spoken before about how challenging golf is. As to the physicality, look at Tiger Woods whose life is .... after multiple back surgeries from golf related injuries.

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