Honda RCV1000R
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Jumkie
Well yeah but say he is likely to finish 9th this year. Assuming there will be 4 x Honda + 4 Yamaha full spec bikes that will be at least as good (most likely better) than the RCV1KR, then for Nicky to do better he'll need to be mixing it up with them, which isn't going to be easy. Even on Satellite bike it wouldn't be easy.
So where do Ducati sit in this scenario? How far outside the top 10 are they going to be and how do they continue to justify competing as a factory if they are that far back? It's almost like they need to take a step back, compete with their own production racer (up against the RVC) and await the change to the spec ECU in ~2015.
Well yeah but say he is likely to finish 9th this year. Assuming there will be 4 x Honda + 4 Yamaha full spec bikes that will be at least as good (most likely better) than the RCV1KR, then for Nicky to do better he'll need to be mixing it up with them, which isn't going to be easy. Even on Satellite bike it wouldn't be easy.
So where do Ducati sit in this scenario? How far outside the top 10 are they going to be and how do they continue to justify competing as a factory if they are that far back? It's almost like they need to take a step back, compete with their own production racer (up against the RVC) and await the change to the spec ECU in ~2015.
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http://motomatters.com/press_release/2013/10/30/hrc_press_release_casey_stoner_concludes.html
The only thing I was hoping for was for Casey to test the CBR1KV. .....
The only thing I was hoping for was for Casey to test the CBR1KV. .....
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Don't panic, it is finished, nothing he said after testing would have changed it, just wait and see what its like, you will not be disappointed, its a ....... missile.
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From what I've heard Casey's most valuable input was having them re label the red engine cutoff button from stop to quit
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the-insider
Now onto more important things
insider, how awesome will Villopotos bike be this year?
Now onto more important things
insider, how awesome will Villopotos bike be this year?
Dr No
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Heya insider,
I told you I'd respond on this thread when I didn't have to peck away at a phone.
I re-read most of the thread. And to be blunt, I'm not sure I can be arsed responding anymore. All the salient points have been made re: commercial reasons why Honda would provide a Proddy with Sat levels of performance; why, if the Showas/Nissins are so close, only Gresini runs them; why pneumatics remain on the RCVs but the proddy gets steel valves; why lack of frame upgrades is a disadvantage, but main response we get is: Wait and see. "It's a missile". "It's competitive". In the absence of data, this is as much opinion and speculation as the opposing points.
That said, if you want to talk specifics, let's start with the valvetrain.
You've repeated said that the rev ceiling won't go up with the 20l rule. No issues there, unless there's some serious .... going on in the ECU on the RCV. However, assuming the rev ceiling doesn't decrease; the RCV will remain on pnuematics, while the Proddy will have steels. Which suggests two things. 1) that the maximum revs will be lower on the Proddy. 2) that the cam profiles will, by necessity, be softer, with all that implies.
So the ECU development thus far will assume 24l availability, if I read correctly, you are proposing that this will be sufficient to compensate for the above engine deficiencies?
I told you I'd respond on this thread when I didn't have to peck away at a phone.
I re-read most of the thread. And to be blunt, I'm not sure I can be arsed responding anymore. All the salient points have been made re: commercial reasons why Honda would provide a Proddy with Sat levels of performance; why, if the Showas/Nissins are so close, only Gresini runs them; why pneumatics remain on the RCVs but the proddy gets steel valves; why lack of frame upgrades is a disadvantage, but main response we get is: Wait and see. "It's a missile". "It's competitive". In the absence of data, this is as much opinion and speculation as the opposing points.
That said, if you want to talk specifics, let's start with the valvetrain.
You've repeated said that the rev ceiling won't go up with the 20l rule. No issues there, unless there's some serious .... going on in the ECU on the RCV. However, assuming the rev ceiling doesn't decrease; the RCV will remain on pnuematics, while the Proddy will have steels. Which suggests two things. 1) that the maximum revs will be lower on the Proddy. 2) that the cam profiles will, by necessity, be softer, with all that implies.
So the ECU development thus far will assume 24l availability, if I read correctly, you are proposing that this will be sufficient to compensate for the above engine deficiencies?
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JohnnyKnockdown
I don't know, but Ryan is so fast it wont make much difference.
I don't know, but Ryan is so fast it wont make much difference.
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Dr No
Honda had been using Pneumatic valves in other applications for years, but never needed them on bikes, but Ducati's Desmo and Aprilia's canister system meant revs would rise, 18000 + in the 800 era, now they are running at around 16250, Aprilia are getting 16000 with a road bike engine with good reliability, During this time WSS engines have been getting more power and more revs, and the valve control and reliability has increased hugely, The 81mm bore and reduced fuel will stop revs rising, The production bike makes good power and keeps good valve control at the same revs as the prototype, and with the improvement in tech, the cam profile will remain as radical as possible, these are HRC valve systems, not something from a production bike, don't get confused with anything we have seen so far, it will have springs as they are much cheaper and make the bike affordable, Honda state it is competitive with 20ltrs, the extra fuel will be a bonus.
Honda had been using Pneumatic valves in other applications for years, but never needed them on bikes, but Ducati's Desmo and Aprilia's canister system meant revs would rise, 18000 + in the 800 era, now they are running at around 16250, Aprilia are getting 16000 with a road bike engine with good reliability, During this time WSS engines have been getting more power and more revs, and the valve control and reliability has increased hugely, The 81mm bore and reduced fuel will stop revs rising, The production bike makes good power and keeps good valve control at the same revs as the prototype, and with the improvement in tech, the cam profile will remain as radical as possible, these are HRC valve systems, not something from a production bike, don't get confused with anything we have seen so far, it will have springs as they are much cheaper and make the bike affordable, Honda state it is competitive with 20ltrs, the extra fuel will be a bonus.
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You two seem to know a lot.
Is the proddy racer bound by the same weight boundries as the prototype machines?
Is the proddy racer bound by the same weight boundries as the prototype machines?
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lil red rocket pilot
Yes, I have heard nothing about an advantage or penalty.
Yes, I have heard nothing about an advantage or penalty.
Dr No
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the-insider
The 81mm bore requirement is already in force, so the only thing stopping revs rising is the fuel limitation.
Yet, the factory/sat RCVs will retain pnuematics. This cannot just be HRC engineering window dressing.
I'm not sure what you mean by HRC valve systems? Given the inlet angles, I guess they've got finger rockers, the materials aren't permitted to be particularly exotic, you seem to be saying they're something different - "don't get confused with anything we have seen so far"?
(I feel slightly nauseaous talking bump-stick engines)
The 81mm bore requirement is already in force, so the only thing stopping revs rising is the fuel limitation.
Yet, the factory/sat RCVs will retain pnuematics. This cannot just be HRC engineering window dressing.
I'm not sure what you mean by HRC valve systems? Given the inlet angles, I guess they've got finger rockers, the materials aren't permitted to be particularly exotic, you seem to be saying they're something different - "don't get confused with anything we have seen so far"?
(I feel slightly nauseaous talking bump-stick engines)
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the-insider
So with a full 24ltrs on board it will be heavier than the factory machines.
Gonna be interesting how they deal with the extra weight,
Remember the chatter beginning of 2012 with the extra weight regs.
So with a full 24ltrs on board it will be heavier than the factory machines.
Gonna be interesting how they deal with the extra weight,
Remember the chatter beginning of 2012 with the extra weight regs.
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I'm interested in this "Honda" valve train and why you're implying its somehow superior without pneumatics to say the yam ? Am i correct in saying the Honda still only uses 4 valves per cylinder as yam patented the 5 valve ?
also you say valve spring technology has come a long way. I dont doubt that but i'm interested to know in what way and how they overcome spring surge ? Are they going to use coil spring or go back to the days of the Bomber and use torsion ? Remember the days of the Norton Rotary valve, it would be good to see something new that could find its way to a high revving road bike.
also you say valve spring technology has come a long way. I dont doubt that but i'm interested to know in what way and how they overcome spring surge ? Are they going to use coil spring or go back to the days of the Bomber and use torsion ? Remember the days of the Norton Rotary valve, it would be good to see something new that could find its way to a high revving road bike.
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It's probably gonna be the same valve system(finger follower/rocker arm) used on Aliex Espargaro's bike this year. I think BMW uses it on the s1000rr and Porsche uses it in the 2014 GT3.
Dr No
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chopperman
5 valves was a dead end. Nice amount of inlet area, but turned the combustion chamber into a nightmare of nooks and crannies. It was good for a while, but once flame speed/efficient combustion at high revs became a limiting factor, Yamaha swallowed their corporate pride and ditched it. I think.
5 valves was a dead end. Nice amount of inlet area, but turned the combustion chamber into a nightmare of nooks and crannies. It was good for a while, but once flame speed/efficient combustion at high revs became a limiting factor, Yamaha swallowed their corporate pride and ditched it. I think.
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Dr No
Yes, I think the 5 valves only remains on Yamaha Outboard engines now.
Insider, do you mean that the prototype bike potentially doesn't need pneumatic valves anymore due to advances in the steel valve technology? Or at least that the advantage is so very small that it doesn't make it worthwhile for the production bike.
Regarding the extra weight of the 24ltrs, I'm assuming they might not use the full allocation at some tracks. Maybe 22ltrs or something will be the sweet spot.
Yes, I think the 5 valves only remains on Yamaha Outboard engines now.
Insider, do you mean that the prototype bike potentially doesn't need pneumatic valves anymore due to advances in the steel valve technology? Or at least that the advantage is so very small that it doesn't make it worthwhile for the production bike.
Regarding the extra weight of the 24ltrs, I'm assuming they might not use the full allocation at some tracks. Maybe 22ltrs or something will be the sweet spot.
Dr No
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Sloth_27
Not sure, Sloth. Only boat engine I've fiddled with in the recent past was a mighty 2 cyl diesel on a Cavalier 32.
But my "I think" referred to my assumptions as to why it died. Could have been the extra friction of another valve (doubt it), could have been flow from the 3 ports interfering with each other (ooo eer), could have been packaging and port shape(better possibility), probably all of the above but at the time I recall a lot of fuss being made in F1 about flame speeds, combustion chamber shape, etc etc...
Not sure, Sloth. Only boat engine I've fiddled with in the recent past was a mighty 2 cyl diesel on a Cavalier 32.
But my "I think" referred to my assumptions as to why it died. Could have been the extra friction of another valve (doubt it), could have been flow from the 3 ports interfering with each other (ooo eer), could have been packaging and port shape(better possibility), probably all of the above but at the time I recall a lot of fuss being made in F1 about flame speeds, combustion chamber shape, etc etc...
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Dr No
I know the bore limit is in force, that's one of the reasons the revs are down, the other is the fuel, No its not just window dressing, Honda are still here for research, did you know the pneumatic system has changed 3 times? The sprung valves are HRC quality, they will work better than any sprung system we have seen, Also you seem to be forgetting, these are engines the customer can look inside, no one outside HRC looks at the pneumatic system, instead of asking me here and then offering nothing to discredit what I say, go and do some research, you will soon see that to produce this amount of power at these revs, pneumatics are no longer needed, Aprilia want to use pneumatics next year because their road bike engine is at the limit in its original design, The production Honda is still a limited run, straight out of HRC, these are still as "works" as it gets.
I know the bore limit is in force, that's one of the reasons the revs are down, the other is the fuel, No its not just window dressing, Honda are still here for research, did you know the pneumatic system has changed 3 times? The sprung valves are HRC quality, they will work better than any sprung system we have seen, Also you seem to be forgetting, these are engines the customer can look inside, no one outside HRC looks at the pneumatic system, instead of asking me here and then offering nothing to discredit what I say, go and do some research, you will soon see that to produce this amount of power at these revs, pneumatics are no longer needed, Aprilia want to use pneumatics next year because their road bike engine is at the limit in its original design, The production Honda is still a limited run, straight out of HRC, these are still as "works" as it gets.
