Hayden drops a hint

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MigsAngel @ Sep 12 2008, 10:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Personally, I think it was Honda and Rossi that won him Nicky the 2006 title....he now has to prove to himself on the Ducati it was him and his talent....
Nicky earned that championship. Remember, it's not just points. Hell, Stoner could actually still win the championship now with a 75 point deficit if he sweeps. When it comes to down points, that means no rider is totally dominant. Consistency takes over. Nicky had it that year.

People always remember Rossi falling Valencia, but seem to take the first 7 laps and Estoril '06 out the equation. Rossi had a horrible start and would have needed to podium ahead of Nicky if it weren't for Pedrobot. Given how Bayliss and Capirossi performed, along Melandri blocking, there is no guarantee that JUST Rossi's fall gave it to Hayden. FWIW, I know Rossi is better than Nicky overall. But he wasn't that year.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SuperShinya56 @ Sep 12 2008, 05:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hayden was humbled because Honda gave HIM the championship, not the other way around buddy.... get it right. Why did you think he kept his mouth shut all this time? Because he knew he couldn't become a champion if not for Honda.
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how do you work that out <strike>barrymachine</strike> i mean supershinya56
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Sep 12 2008, 12:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh i disagree, i think the complete package is always a necessity. The rider may still be the largest single factor in the result, but he is still an employee however valuable he might be to his employer.

In the examples I quickly gave I would think the situation with Rossi 80/20, Casey 70/30, and Hopper 60/40
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Sep 12 2008, 06:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It is easy to say that Honda have failed Nicky, but then anyone who doesn't win the world championship could equally argue that they were failed by their equipment/team. You must remember that Nicky was an employee of Honda, he didn't hire them to give him a bike, they hired him to ride it. With HRC being the team they are, they are in a position to expect top results, and they are in a position to hire other employees to achieve this if their current team fails. In short, they don't owe him .....


In this case yes, they failed him. Remember last year the top HRC guy mention it. He said they built the bike for asimo and set their expectation low in regards to other brands.






.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Sep 12 2008, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nicky earned that championship. Remember, it's not just points. Hell, Stoner could actually still win the championship now with a 75 point deficit if he sweeps. When it comes to down points, that means no rider is totally dominant. Consistency takes over. Nicky had it that year.

People always remember Rossi falling Valencia, but seem to take the first 7 laps and Estoril '06 out the equation. Rossi had a horrible start and would have needed to podium ahead of Nicky if it weren't for Pedrobot. Given how Bayliss and Capirossi performed, along Melandri blocking, there is no guarantee that JUST Rossi's fall gave it to Hayden. FWIW, I know Rossi is better than Nicky overall. But he wasn't that year.


Exactly, if Scud hadnt beat him in Portugal, if he hadnt fallen off at Valencia, if Edwards had beaten Haystack at Assen...I could go on, those 5 points slipped away a few times.

Hayboy won by being there week in week out, and even won a couple o races in there.

Pete
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MigsAngel @ Sep 12 2008, 11:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In the examples I quickly gave I would think the situation with Rossi 80/20, Casey 70/30, and Hopper 60/40

I know we're trying to quantify a question of Sorites Paradigm but I would have placed Casey and Rossi closer together on the basis of the success of the other Yamahas early in the season and the failure of the other Ducati's. I think the biked misconception with Ducati is currently running at about 12.5% accuracy (87.5% inaccuracy) at present but Toni is bumping that error factor around a bit.

Splitting hairs really but in your quantification Stoner is halfway between Hopper and Rossi and he is a hell of a lot closer than that really. Hopper would be (IMO) one of many other failures on a Ducati if he jumped on it.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Sep 11 2008, 02:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>so says someone whos ridden a motogp bike
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In fact, yes, Darryl Beattie and Troy Bayliss were discussing this at length during the last round, commentating for channel 10. Alex Gobert also confirmed this when he tested the GP7 for AMCN, as did Loris Capirossi in 2007, when explaining his problems with the Ducati.

FYI(as you see to be quite ignorant), Capirossi, Bayliss and Beattie are all premier class race winners. The former two have also extensively ridden MotoGP bikes.

Additionally, any ..... with two eyes who has ridden a bike around a track before can pick it quite easily. I would contend that you don't know the clutch from the front brake...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Sep 12 2008, 01:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's pretty fair that Nicky is grateful to HRC, he owes them everything (probably the source of his loyalty). He knows it was them that showed him the ropes and them that allowed him to fight for the world title and win.
I've let alot of dumb things go since you are neither capable nor able to carry intelligent debate and opinion. But this one here has got to be the most ........ one yet (apart from your opinion that Schwantz is over-rated). You are one of a few members here that talks about things that you know nothing, clearly zero, about. You have attempted to lay your opinions about the AMA, American tracks, and riders, but you know nothing about them. This one here has got to top the list. It reminds me of all the .... talking you've done about Laguna, then when ask if you had been there, your revelation that no you had not spoke volumes about you (yes, you, the person). HRC didn't show and teach Nicky a damn thing, not now not never! Flush out your headgear of .... between your ears Tom. Nicky didn't start on a Honda. He started dirt tracking, a domain that Honda is foreign to. He learned his craft through hours of instruction from his dad, and observation of his older brother Tommy Hayden. Honda has been the recipient of having an extremely dedicated and talented rider who rode one of their bikes to coveted championships; nothing more nothing less! But he could have just as easily done it on another Jap bike. Honda does NOT teach riders jack ....!

Tom, you increasingly say stupid things, but today you again show everybody what a lame uneducated ignorant fool you are. (And the same to those with similar opinion).
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Sep 12 2008, 03:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It is easy to say that Honda have failed Nicky, but then anyone who doesn't win the world championship could equally argue that they were failed by their equipment/team. You must remember that Nicky was an employee of Honda, he didn't hire them to give him a bike, they hired him to ride it. With HRC being the team they are, they are in a position to expect top results, and they are in a position to hire other employees to achieve this if their current team fails. In short, they don't owe him .....
The only "...." around here is the stuff between your ears. You say Nicky was an "employee." What do they teach you in school man? Have you ever heard of a contractor? He had a contract with HRC, and one that seems they did not honor. They owed him at least that. Something they did NOT deliver.

Meanwhile, Nicky sold and marketed a great deal for this factory. I realize you talk from a perspective of a lunar module, but if you could see all the merchandise here at Indy, you would see that 90% of everything sold has Nicky's image on it. Oh and guess what he is riding? Yeah, a Honda. So here we have a guy who how ever you want to spin it, has earned titles both national and international for the brand, sells a .... load of stuff for these fools, and all he asked was a fair shot, and they did not deliver (no, not even the year he won the MotoGP title). You obviously can't relate Tom since perhaps you don't surround yourself with stellar decent human beings with outstanding character, so it must be difficult for you to understand, that even though he was crapped on, he refuses lower himself to that level. You know nothing about humility, humbleness, and strength of character. I'm sure he knows, as most of the world living in reality, that he was not given a fair shake when it came to MotoGP (perhaps it may have been different with American-Honda), but he was loyal to a fault and Nicky remains unconditionally grateful for the conditioned opportunity they did give him. Its called GRACIOUSNESS. Look it up, you may learn something you haven't been taught.
 
Jumkie, don’t want to upset you but any employment situation is based in contract. By definition Nicky was an employee as he did not supply his own tools and insurance etc.etc. to do the job.

Mind you now it is a legal question I call to account the duty at common law for the employer (Honda) to adhere to its duty ‘not to destroy mutual trust and confidence in the employment relationship’. There is now developing at law a broader ‘good faith’ obligation, which is both contentious and rather interesting. These types of decisions are spreading through the western world like wildfire.

In Australia the full bench of the Arbitration commission in the Walker case (Walker v Citigroup Global Markets Australia Pty Limited 2005) applied an assumption that employment contracts are obliged to act in good faith, by cooperating to give effect to the mutually determined expectations of the relationship

Subsequent to the Walker case the New South Wales Supreme Court has held (in Russell v Trustees of the Roman Catholic Church) that there is a duty to act in good faith, and that it imports an obligation to exercise ‘prudence, caution and diligence to ‘avoid or minimise adverse consequences to the other party’.

Now that is mostly just legal .... however it means the two parties are obliged to act properly and to exert the proper amount of care and skill as the other requires in order to be benefiting from the relationship. In other words “if you employ me, you must give me what I need (within reason) to do my job. Do not hold me to ridicule or sideline me”. I note Nicki’s sarcasm when stating in his pre race interview that if he didn’t turn up some people wouldn’t notice.

Not litigating against Honda and talking in very abstract terms here it would seem that Honda hasn’t fulfilled its obligation to Nicki and there is in a broad sense a breach of contract but I personally wouldn’t take them on, it’s just that Nicki gave his very best, did as much as he could for Honda and is now gracious and humble in departure whilst Honda have hardly fulfilled any obligation to Nicki to treat him all that well, I mean he gave them their only championship after Rossi. As soon as the gormless midget arrived he was screwed over and marginalised.

For what it’s worth I think the good relationship between he and Casey and the good relationship Ducati has had with Australian riders will benefit Nicki and he can give Pedrosa, Puig and Mr Honda the big “.... you”.

God I love the law, so ....... boring

From the Carlton United drinkers legal team

EDIT: How do you think Pedders and Puig got out of their Michelin contract?
 
Yeah, but Nicky's not an employee he's a contract laborer.

Honda don't give him orders or tell him what to do. They hired him to ride the MotoGP season and to perform a set number of machine tests and advertising gigs. The terms of his labor are set forth in the contract, Honda cannot give him additional tasks without additional compensation.

Furthermore, Honda don't pay for or book his flights or his hotels. They don't train him to ride or dictate how he is to ride (in theory). They don't hire or pay his personal trainer; they don't give him a workout routine.

Nicky has contracts with many other companies to perform advertising services in addition to Honda.

Nicky is a contract professional.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Sep 13 2008, 08:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Jumkie, don’t want to upset you but any employment situation is based in contract. By definition Nicky was an employee as he did not supply his own tools and insurance etc.etc. to do the job.

Mind you now it is a legal question I call to account the duty at common law for the employer (Honda) to adhere to its duty ‘not to destroy mutual trust and confidence in the employment relationship’. There is now developing at law a broader ‘good faith’ obligation, which is both contentious and rather interesting. These types of decisions are spreading through the western world like wildfire.

In Australia the full bench of the Arbitration commission in the Walker case (Walker v Citigroup Global Markets Australia Pty Limited 2005) applied an assumption that employment contracts are obliged to act in good faith, by cooperating to give effect to the mutually determined expectations of the relationship

Subsequent to the Walker case the New South Wales Supreme Court has held (in Russell v Trustees of the Roman Catholic Church) that there is a duty to act in good faith, and that it imports an obligation to exercise ‘prudence, caution and diligence to ‘avoid or minimise adverse consequences to the other party’.

Now that is mostly just legal .... however it means the two parties are obliged to act properly and to exert the proper amount of care and skill as the other requires in order to be benefiting from the relationship. In other words “if you employ me, you must give me what I need (within reason) to do my job. Do not hold me to ridicule or sideline me”. I note Nicki’s sarcasm when stating in his pre race interview that if he didn’t turn up some people wouldn’t notice.

Not litigating against Honda and talking in very abstract terms here it would seem that Honda hasn’t fulfilled its obligation to Nicki and there is in a broad sense a breach of contract but I personally wouldn’t take them on, it’s just that Nicki gave his very best, did as much as he could for Honda and is now gracious and humble in departure whilst Honda have hardly fulfilled any obligation to Nicki to treat him all that well, I mean he gave them their only championship after Rossi. As soon as the gormless midget arrived he was screwed over and marginalised.

For what it’s worth I think the good relationship between he and Casey and the good relationship Ducati has had with Australian riders will benefit Nicki and he can give Pedrosa, Puig and Mr Honda the big “.... you”.

God I love the law, so ....... boring

From the Carlton United drinkers legal team

EDIT: How do you think Pedders and Puig got out of their Michelin contract?

Why are you mixing Tort law and Contract Law?

You start off by talking about contracts and then the first thing you do is mention a duty of care (Torts)?

Lemme guess, first year?

Better get that straightened out before your exams or you're gonna do poorly.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Parc Ferme @ Sep 14 2008, 05:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why are you mixing Tort law and Contract Law?

You start off by talking about contracts and then the first thing you do is mention a duty of care (Torts)?

Lemme guess, first year?

Better get that straightened out before your exams or you're gonna do poorly.


100% Industrial relations law - a good mixture of tort contract and everything else.

I bet you didn't do it because it’s an elective.

I'll go so far to say that the "can't mix one with the other" statement truly defines you as a student at best or advised by one. My exams are long gone.

In real law boundaries are crossed all of the time between torts contract and other forms of law. For example, if I was paid to protect somebody and didn't and they received an injury would you argue duty of care (tort) or breach of a defined term (contract). The fact is you would argue both because they both exist in the one set of circumstances. At school they teach you one at a time and it makes it easy but in real life there is no such thing.

Ask somebody; I can give you hundreds of examples of “multi discipline” legal cases. They are more common than not, even proofs in criminal law are established in tort.

In the outside world there is legal "co morbidity”, like you can have a broken arm and an infection at the same time. One doctor can treat both at the same time.

Nicki is an employee. Defined by the length of the relationship and extraneous duties and so forth, no doubt about it.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Sep 13 2008, 06:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I've let alot of dumb things go since you are neither capable nor able to carry intelligent debate and opinion. But this one here has got to be the most ........ one yet (apart from your opinion that Schwantz is over-rated). You are one of a few members here that talks about things that you know nothing, clearly zero, about. You have attempted to lay your opinions about the AMA, American tracks, and riders, but you know nothing about them. This one here has got to top the list. It reminds me of all the .... talking you've done about Laguna, then when ask if you had been there, your revelation that no you had not spoke volumes about you (yes, you, the person). HRC didn't show and teach Nicky a damn thing, not now not never! Flush out your headgear of .... between your ears Tom. Nicky didn't start on a Honda. He started dirt tracking, a domain that Honda is foreign to. He learned his craft through hours of instruction from his dad, and observation of his older brother Tommy Hayden. Honda has been the recipient of having an extremely dedicated and talented rider who rode one of their bikes to coveted championships; nothing more nothing less! But he could have just as easily done it on another Jap bike. Honda does NOT teach riders jack ....!

Tom, you increasingly say stupid things, but today you again show everybody what a lame uneducated ignorant fool you are. (And the same to those with similar opinion).

I don't know how you can have so much trouble in understanding that I find Laguna one of the least enjoyable GP events of the year. As for Nicky, cheers for the "knowledge", i didn't know nicky rode a bike before Honda employed him
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Sep 13 2008, 06:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The only "...." around here is the stuff between your ears. You say Nicky was an "employee." What do they teach you in school man? Have you ever heard of a contractor? He had a contract with HRC, and one that seems they did not honor. They owed him at least that. Something they did NOT deliver.

Meanwhile, Nicky sold and marketed a great deal for this factory. I realize you talk from a perspective of a lunar module, but if you could see all the merchandise here at Indy, you would see that 90% of everything sold has Nicky's image on it. Oh and guess what he is riding? Yeah, a Honda. So here we have a guy who how ever you want to spin it, has earned titles both national and international for the brand, sells a .... load of stuff for these fools, and all he asked was a fair shot, and they did not deliver (no, not even the year he won the MotoGP title). You obviously can't relate Tom since perhaps you don't surround yourself with stellar decent human beings with outstanding character, so it must be difficult for you to understand, that even though he was crapped on, he refuses lower himself to that level. You know nothing about humility, humbleness, and strength of character. I'm sure he knows, as most of the world living in reality, that he was not given a fair shake when it came to MotoGP (perhaps it may have been different with American-Honda), but he was loyal to a fault and Nicky remains unconditionally grateful for the conditioned opportunity they did give him. Its called GRACIOUSNESS. Look it up, you may learn something you haven't been taught.

Also news, i didn't know riders were used for marketting by their teams, and that Nicky remains professional in public
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NICE!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Sep 13 2008, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nicky is a contract professional.

You mean he's like a prostitute!?!
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He give his services to highest bidder, and since overtime all 'ladies' get old and their talents start to wane the highest bids get lower and lower...

Ducati then is Nicky's 2009 new sugar daddy, but given they've been burned before they will only want to pay for getting some real satisfaction and for a limited time only...

After all who knows what other 'ladies' service will become available to service Ducati in 2010!
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Did you girls see Nick riding the pis out the Honda in Q!? THATS the way its done kids!
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Dani WISHES he could ride like that....
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I think honda ...... up putting ALL their chips on Pedro.... If a TEAM listens to what Nick wants in HIS machine... well....you do the math
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"!BELISIMA!" "!QUE FUMA!"
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Sep 14 2008, 12:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Did you girls see Nick riding the pis out the Honda in Q!? THATS the way its done kids!
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Dani WISHES he could ride like that....
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I think honda ...... up putting ALL their chips on Pedro.... If a TEAM listens to what Nick wants in HIS machine... well....you do the math
<



"!BELISIMA!" "!QUE FUMA!"
<


<object width="425" height="350<param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DyzaUSKBxpo</param><param name="wmode" value="transparent</param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DyzaUSKBxpo" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350</embed></object>

I guess the way he rides are also the reason we will never see him as a champion again. He often lost quite a lot in that turn. It looks cool but it's not very efficient the way the bikes work right now.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Sep 14 2008, 01:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't know how you can have so much trouble in understanding that I find Laguna one of the least enjoyable GP events of the year. As for Nicky, cheers for the "knowledge", i didn't know nicky rode a bike before Honda employed him
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Also news, i didn't know riders were used for marketting by their teams, and that Nicky remains professional in public
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NICE!
you are arrogant tom you really are. you dont fool most here, most have read your dribble for years and know theres rarely any substance to it. you judge what you clearly no .... all about then wonder why peeps dont want to debate with you.
how can you judge laguna when you have never been, what is it your tv is no9t showing you that it shows you with all the other tracks ?

and reading your comment on nicky is so ....... funny in an ironic lame way. .... you have changed your tune since 06. when he was winning you were all in his favor and also out spoken about hrc giving him the .... end of the stick if my memory serves me right.

you give us examples of when nicky has been unproffesional in public ?

and how many honda shirts hats ect do you think they would sell if it didnt have nick or dani's number on it ?
 

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