Guareschi: I've never seen a talent like Casey

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 10 2010, 12:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>oh so a bunch of forum posters say ..... whatever they saying....


My interest is in the manner that so many "close to the paddock" or riders etc. say Stoner is the best.

including ex-Duc. employees who go out of their way to say there are no negotiations, I take this to mean best racer, best rider, best whatever you choose. And one can see why he has said that as almost instantly the Boppers tried to break it down to leave Rossi acrumb or two by attempting to say Rossi is the best racer But no that would be "misinterpretting" the paddock talk.

So if Stoner is seen as the best rider and racer, and yet he came 4th last year ....... what is it they are seeing?

Are they expecting the Duc. to be good in 2010?


Just answer some questions - if Stoner is widely regarded as the best rider/racer in the paddock, why is he still riding the POS Ducati (as per Barry)? Just to proove some point? Wouldn't Yamaha then be preferring Stoner over Rossi anyday (esp with the huge slary Rossi commands)? Why didn't Honda try to retain him in 2007? Why is it that only people in Ducati camp are saying he is the best? And BTW Spies never said Stoner is the best. He said he was amazed by his riding.


Cheers
Renjith

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Renjith @ Mar 10 2010, 06:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just answer some questions - if Stoner is widely regarded as the best rider/racer in the paddock, why is he still riding the POS Ducati (as per Barry)?

Its called a "contract".


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Renjith @ Mar 10 2010, 06:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just to proove some point? Wouldn't Yamaha then be preferring Stoner over Rossi anyday (esp with the huge slary Rossi commands)?

Neither you nor I know whether they do or not. Thats like asking why do Ducati prefer Stoner over Rossi? Whats your answer to that? Remembering "contracts"


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Renjith @ Mar 10 2010, 06:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why didn't Honda try to retain him in 2007?

Because he was never hired by Honda He was hired by LCR who would have loved him to stay but he got a "factory" offer which turned out to be a good ride for him in 07. So it was a good decision.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Renjith @ Mar 10 2010, 06:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why is it that only people in Ducati camp are saying he is the best?

Tardossi is BMW isn't he?
Rossi was the first to imply Stoner was an alien, referring to him as being "in a league of his own".
Suppo raves about Stoner .... where's he now? Some say he's gone to prepare the way for Stoner as some spearhead to help Honda get back to the "glorydays" ( I have no idea whether or not this is even remotely based in some truth, however "contract" time later this year will be a doozy!
Wherever Stoner goes I predict a lift in the numbers of cattle on the Stoner farm


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Renjith @ Mar 10 2010, 06:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And BTW Spies never said Stoner is the best. He said he was amazed by his riding.

But he does extol his virtues.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 10 2010, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Its called a "contract".

So you reckon once the contract is over this year he should be riding for Yamaha/Honda 9whatever his choice is as he is the BEST)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 10 2010, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Neither you nor I know whether they do or not. Thats like asking why do Ducati prefer Stoner over Rossi? Whats your answer to that? Remembering "contracts"

I guess it is Rossi who has decided to stick with Yamaha even though Ducati were wooing him last year silly season. I haven't till now heard Yamaha even trying to get Stoner. They seem to be looking at Lorenzo/Spies to find Rossi's successor

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 10 2010, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Because he was never hired by Honda He was hired by LCR who would have loved him to stay but he got a "factory" offer which turned out to be a good ride for him in 07. So it was a good decision.

I don't think so. Factories always have control over the satellite bikes. And riders who impress on Satellite bikes progress to be factory riders.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 10 2010, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Tardossi is BMW isn't he?
Rossi was the first to imply Stoner was an alien, referring to him as being "in a league of his own".
Suppo raves about Stoner .... where's he now?

Where were Tardossi and Suppo till last year? I don't remeber a quote from Rossi saying Stoner is in a league of his own (any links to support this)? How ever I remeber Rossi saying Stoner rode like God(in 2007). I wouldn't give any credence to Rossi's public opinion of Stoner (Or Stoner's opinion of Rossi) as both will praise the other, as otherwise it will be bad PR. Anyway what do you expect

Journalist to Rossi: How good is Stoner
Rossi: Ugh..not so bad I think

"Stoner + monster Ducati at the moment", not Stoner him self.

You are talking about the fastest rider, but I think "the fastest rider" makes little sense in this RACING world. The boys are RACING, so it makes sense if you talk about the best racer out there.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 10 2010, 08:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Tardossi is BMW isn't he?
Rossi was the first to imply Stoner was an alien, referring to him as being "in a league of his own".
Suppo raves about Stoner .... where's he now? Some say he's gone to prepare the way for Stoner as some spearhead to help Honda get back to the "glorydays" ( I have no idea whether or not this is even remotely based in some truth, however "contract" time later this year will be a doozy!
Wherever Stoner goes I predict a lift in the numbers of cattle on the Stoner farm




But he does extol his virtues.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Renjith @ Mar 10 2010, 08:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just answer some questions - if Stoner is widely regarded as the best rider/racer in the paddock, why is he still riding the POS Ducati (as per Barry)? Just to proove some point? Wouldn't Yamaha then be preferring Stoner over Rossi anyday (esp with the huge slary Rossi commands)? Why didn't Honda try to retain him in 2007? Why is it that only people in Ducati camp are saying he is the best? And BTW Spies never said Stoner is the best. He said he was amazed by his riding.


Cheers
Renjith
Rossi is very obviously the best at the moment as the winner of the last 2 championships, end of story.

I don't think it is true that no other factories are interested in stoner though. He did sign up with ducati until the end of 2010 after (or during) his championship year in 2007, making him a little unavailable hitherto one would have thought. Honda team management are on record last year as saying they would like to hire him or rossi, and I think jerry burgess was keen for him to go to yamaha at one stage. I agree there is no evidence of current interest from yamaha, hardly surprising since rossi's retirement now seems to be indefinite rather than imminent, and since they have 2 other excellent riders under contract, both of whom have far more commercial/marketing appeal than stoner as obviously does rossi.

I do think stoner needs to have an unproblematic year in 2010, as a 3rd year plagued by illness or injury however genuine would make him too unreliable a commodity. Otherwise I think he will be in great demand at least from honda and ducati if not yamaha, pre-supposing that valentino does not want to shift to ducati, which I don't believe is a particularly bold supposition. An unproblematic year for stoner might conceivably lead to a second world championship as well, which would not hurt demand for his services

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 10 2010, 12:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>oh so a bunch of forum posters say ..... whatever they saying....

My interest is in the manner that so many "close to the paddock" or riders etc. say Stoner is the best.

including ex-Duc. employees who go out of their way to say there are no negotiations, I take this to mean best racer, best rider, best whatever you choose. And one can see why he has said that as almost instantly the Boppers tried to break it down to leave Rossi acrumb or two by attempting to say Rossi is the best racer But no that would be "misinterpretting" the paddock talk.

So if Stoner is seen as the best rider and racer, and yet he came 4th last year ....... what is it they are seeing?

But in the same Paddock and people close to it, a lot of them say Rossi is the Best, and have said it for years. Out of the Paddock people with great expertise also say The Best Ever. Why are they saying it? Same goes here mate! I think some people have the illusion for a change, yet that proves nothing really. A lot of the people in Spanish Blogs have references to Paddock Talk same as what you imply Barry, just from Spanish sources, and knowing Dorna, Repsol, etc. are from Spain, it does have some weight. Still Paddock Talk!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 10 2010, 12:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Are they expecting the Duc. to be good in 2010?

Well with 4 Yamahas in the Top 6 or 7 at practice, it is expected to be a great bike in 2010 too. What does this tell us?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 10 2010, 02:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Its called a "contract".

Neither you nor I know whether they do or not. Thats like asking why do Ducati prefer Stoner over Rossi? Whats your answer to that? Remembering "contracts"

Because he was never hired by Honda He was hired by LCR who would have loved him to stay but he got a "factory" offer which turned out to be a good ride for him in 07. So it was a good decision.

Tardossi is BMW isn't he?
Rossi was the first to imply Stoner was an alien, referring to him as being "in a league of his own".
Suppo raves about Stoner .... where's he now? Some say he's gone to prepare the way for Stoner as some spearhead to help Honda get back to the "glorydays" ( I have no idea whether or not this is even remotely based in some truth, however "contract" time later this year will be a doozy!
Wherever Stoner goes I predict a lift in the numbers of cattle on the Stoner farm

A bit delusional, 'Contracts' can be paid off, its been done before if the money is right, Honda has the money and have not achieved much in the last years, so you would think they would pay off Stoner's Contract if the case, which did Not happen.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 10 2010, 02:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But he does extol his virtues.

Very smart on Spies' side. Rossi also extol's other Riders Virtues (Remember him always keeping an eye on Pedrosa's coming up and saying how great he was?). Yet I think somehow Rossi tries never to extol his own, not to give away anything. If Spies sees or thinks alike, I see it as a very Smart Rider by now!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Renjith @ Mar 10 2010, 02:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So you reckon once the contract is over this year he should be riding for Yamaha/Honda 9whatever his choice is as he is the BEST)

I guess it is Rossi who has decided to stick with Yamaha even though Ducati were wooing him last year silly season. I haven't till now heard Yamaha even trying to get Stoner. They seem to be looking at Lorenzo/Spies to find Rossi's successor

I don't think so. Factories always have control over the satellite bikes. And riders who impress on Satellite bikes progress to be factory riders.

Where were Tardossi and Suppo till last year? I don't remeber a quote from Rossi saying Stoner is in a league of his own (any links to support this)? How ever I remeber Rossi saying Stoner rode like God(in 2007). I wouldn't give any credence to Rossi's public opinion of Stoner (Or Stoner's opinion of Rossi) as both will praise the other, as otherwise it will be bad PR. Anyway what do you expect

Journalist to Rossi: How good is Stoner
Rossi: Ugh..not so bad I think

Exactly, great points Renjith. Plus 'Contracts' are not written in stone! They can be paid off! May take a lot of money, but then again if it is really worth it, someone will pay.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 10 2010, 06:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi is very obviously the best at the moment as the winner of the last 2 championships, end of story.

I don't think it is true that no other factories are interested in stoner though. He did sign up with ducati until the end of 2010 after (or during) his championship year in 2007, making him a little unavailable hitherto one would have thought. Honda team management are on record last year as saying they would like to hire him or rossi, and I think jerry burgess was keen for him to go to yamaha at one stage. I agree there is no evidence of current interest from yamaha, hardly surprising since rossi's retirement now seems to be indefinite rather than imminent, and since they have 2 other excellent riders under contract, both of whom have far more commercial/marketing appeal than stoner as obviously does rossi.

I do think stoner needs to have an unproblematic year in 2010, as a 3rd year plagued by illness or injury however genuine would make him too unreliable a commodity. Otherwise I think he will be in great demand at least from honda and ducati if not yamaha, pre-supposing that valentino does not want to shift to ducati, which I don't believe is a particularly bold supposition. An unproblematic year for stoner might conceivably lead to a second world championship as well, which would not hurt demand for his services

Much more real Michael, obviously less delusional.

Side Note: Jumks my friend, there are both side 'Boppers', just a matter of colored glasses, no matter what you imply in this area.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Renjith @ Mar 9 2010, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just answer some questions - if Stoner is widely regarded as the best rider/racer in the paddock, why is he still riding the POS Ducati (as per Barry)? Just to proove some point? Wouldn't Yamaha then be preferring Stoner over Rossi anyday (esp with the huge slary Rossi commands)? Why didn't Honda try to retain him in 2007? Why is it that only people in Ducati camp are saying he is the best? And BTW Spies never said Stoner is the best. He said he was amazed by his riding.


Cheers
Renjith

I think Stoner stays with Ducati b/c he is gracious, and also a little bitter towards the other manufacturers. He believes he demonstrated his skill set at the beginning of the 2006 season, but Ducati were the only ones who seriously considered hiring Stoner. Since 2007, we've learned that Stoner was towards to the bottom of their wish list, but the good times at Ducati are more powerful than any revelations about Ducati's 2007 vetting process.

His loyalty was put to a serious test in 2009 when Arrivabene (Marlboro Europe) demanded an apology from Stoner to Marlboro Ducati and insinuated that Stoner was faking illness. Stoner has said he doesn't plan to leave Ducati, but the tepid relationship with Marlboro might change his mind.

If anyone is damaging Marlboro's investment, it's Arrivabene. You don't discard the only rider who has proven to be Rossi's equal. Stoner is also poised to break into the top 5 on the all times win list (12 to eclipse Lawson but only 6 to eclipse Schwantz). You don't discard a legend b/c he has digestive tract problems.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 10 2010, 01:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think Stoner stays with Ducati b/c he is gracious, and also a little bitter towards the other manufacturers. He believes he demonstrated his skill set at the beginning of the 2006 season, but Ducati were the only ones who seriously considered hiring Stoner. Since 2007, we've learned that Stoner was towards to the bottom of their wish list, but the good times at Ducati are more powerful than any revelations about Ducati's 2007 vetting process.

His loyalty was put to a serious test in 2009 when Arrivabene (Marlboro Europe) demanded an apology from Stoner to Marlboro Ducati and insinuated that Stoner was faking illness. Stoner has said he doesn't plan to leave Ducati, but the tepid relationship with Marlboro might change his mind.

Stoner could also be considered a bit bitter towards Marlboro then. But why 'other Manufactures'? other than Honda I mean.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 10 2010, 01:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If anyone is damaging Marlboro's investment, it's Arrivabene. You don't discard the only rider who has proven to be Rossi's equal. Stoner is also poised to break into the top 5 on the all times win list (12 to eclipse Lawson but only 6 to eclipse Schwantz). You don't discard a legend b/c he has digestive tract problems.

Perhaps in All Riders All Times 'Top Class':
http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/...toGP/table5.pdf

But in All Riders All Times All Classes:
http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/.../VAL/table4.pdf

In which, from active Riders, Pedrosa and Capirossi are still above, and Lorenzo is two steps below! My point being, that when the comparison is Rossi vs. Agostini, everything counts, yet sometimes with Stoner only Top Class counts.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Mar 10 2010, 11:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner could also be considered a bit bitter towards Marlboro then. But why 'other Manufactures'? other than Honda I mean.



Perhaps in All Riders All Times 'Top Class':
http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/...toGP/table5.pdf

But in All Riders All Times All Classes:
http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/.../VAL/table4.pdf

In which, from active Riders, Pedrosa and Capirossi are still above, and Lorenzo is two steps below! My point being, that when the comparison is Rossi vs. Agostini, everything counts, yet sometimes with Stoner only Top Class counts.

I think Stoner might be bitter b/c he received very little interest from other manufacturers. Ducati were the only ones willing to take a risk on him.

The baby-classes don't count for anything other than bragging rights. Dorna are obsessed with exaggerating the GP stats of the rider lineup which is why they obsess over 250 and 125 achievements. In reality, they are ancillary. How you do in the big show is what matters most. Stoner has as many wins as Rossi since 2007 when they've both had factory rides. That's what matters to GP teams.

Stoner could have done worse. He's fine at Ducati and if he showed the interest in leaving he'd walk onto any team he wanted. But why change? He's got everything he needs and wants. Going to Yamaha with Rossi there is an instant second place status and the other teams can't support him technically. The GP10 is equal to any machine on the grid. Ducati is fighting with giants and winning & that is a fun thing to be involved with.

Marlboro was freaked out. If I was dropping millions into something where the marque rider was not showing up I guess I'd be pissed. No doctor able to find an obvious problem just made it worse. But when he was well again the label was right back up front centre so what more can they ask for? No one else has put the "beast" on the podium so often and there is no-one waiting in the wings that can either. Without Stoner they are off the podium which is bad for advertising. It is a lot of ancillary pressure for a rider to deal with but he seems to have done well despite the constant criticism.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Mar 10 2010, 03:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner could have done worse. He's fine at Ducati and if he showed the interest in leaving he'd walk onto any team he wanted. But why change? He's got everything he needs and wants. Going to Yamaha with Rossi there is an instant second place status and the other teams can't support him technically. The GP10 is equal to any machine on the grid. Ducati is fighting with giants and winning & that is a fun thing to be involved with.

Arguably

This would have been another useless VR vs CS ........ thread...except for Keith's on Curvy.


1st beer on me at Indy YamahaAL <us laughing about the time Keith Code made you look like a



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Mar 9 2010, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How many people within the industry lurk in this place? This is ridiculous.
You'd be surprised... seriously.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Mar 10 2010, 08:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner could also be considered a bit bitter towards Marlboro then. But why 'other Manufactures'? other than Honda I mean.



Perhaps in All Riders All Times 'Top Class':
http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/...toGP/table5.pdf

But in All Riders All Times All Classes:
http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/.../VAL/table4.pdf

In which, from active Riders, Pedrosa and Capirossi are still above, and Lorenzo is two steps below! My point being, that when the comparison is Rossi vs. Agostini, everything counts, yet sometimes with Stoner only Top Class counts.
Sure, pedrosa is obviously the equal of eddie lawson, and he and capirossi are both obviously better than schwantz, rainey, roberts senior, spencer, duke, sheene and surtees. It is about how good you end up being, not how you get there. If you want to argue about the number of premier class races available for stoner to compete in as against these all-time greats, that is another question, although this also applies to rossi to a much lesser extent.

The agostini overall record thing is a beat-up mainly of interest to dorna as lex says, and rossi fans. It is the last possible record for valentino to beat, but everyone including I suspect even agostini himself already knows rossi is better. It is also the one record that could never be surpassed given the inability of modern riders to compete in multiple classes in the same season, not that rossi's number of premier class wins even now is likely to be surpassed anytime soon either.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 10 2010, 04:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sure, pedrosa is obviously the equal of eddie lawson, and he and capirossi are both obviously better than schwantz, rainey, roberts senior, spencer, duke, sheene and surtees. It is about how good you end up being, not how you get there. If you want to argue about the number of premier class races available for stoner to compete in as against these all-time greats, that is another question, although this also applies to rossi to a much lesser extent.

The agostini overall record thing is a beat-up mainly of interest to dorna as lex says, and rossi fans. It is the last possible record for valentino to beat, but everyone including I suspect even agostini himself already knows rossi is better. It is also the one record that could never be surpassed given the inability of modern riders to compete in multiple classes in the same season, not that rossi's number of premier class wins even now is likely to be surpassed anytime soon either.

Quite. Additionally, we were discussing Stoner's merits from the standpoint of the sponsors and the teams. Perhaps, Stoner is not the best corporate front man, but that shortcoming is more of an aggravation. His job (from the standpoint of teams and sponsors) is to put the bike on the top stop in the premier class. He is as good at Rossi in that respect since 2007.

I tend not to make historical adjustments to the all time list. I think proportional numbers like win percentage or wins per starts can help make those adjustments in an objective nature. Truth be told, it bothers me a little bit to see Stoner eclipse all of the American greats, but they were their own worst enemies. They trained one another to such a high level that none were able to dominate.

I think it was from 1983 through 1986, US riders only lost 2 races or some such stat. If one of them (take Lawson for instance) was able to dominate the golden era, the US would have a Doohan or Rossi of their own.

That's history. Stoner deserves his accolades without any asterisks or historical adjustments. If he maintains pace, Stoner will have more wins that Lawson before his 27th birthday. If Rossi retires, who knows.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Mar 11 2010, 12:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>A bit delusional, 'Contracts' can be paid off, its been done before if the money is right, Honda has the money and have not achieved much in the last years, so you would think they would pay off Stoner's Contract if the case, which did Not happen

Sure contracts can be broken ....... thats why we call them "contracts" ........

But they are still a hurdle, insurmountable or not, and as may be witnessed by the rarity of contract breakage in MGP, it would seem that it is the "norm" to honour them

And why then did nobody "pay out" Rossi's contract, or any other rider for that matter?

How often has the "paying out of contracts to get someone" happened?

Yes they can be "paid out" however its rarely done, not just by Stoner but by Rossi ( usually .... remembering Michelin ) as well.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 11 2010, 01:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Truth be told, it bothers me a little bit to see Stoner eclipse all of the American greats, but they were their own worst enemies. They trained one another to such a high level that none were able to dominate.

I think it was from 1983 through 1986, US riders only lost 2 races or some such stat. If one of them (take Lawson for instance) was able to dominate the golden era, the US would have a Doohan or Rossi of their own.
To be honest I don't think stoner rates with any of the riders I mentioned as yet, but he is certainly much closer to them than are capirossi or pedrosa. I would rate him as currently about equivalent in stature to wayne gardner, no small thing since gardner did compete at times with some of the greats with significant success.

In the modern era it is really only last year that there were 3 or 4 riders likely to achieve significant multiples of race wins. As you imply riders can only beat guys who actually turn up to compete in the same races though.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 10 2010, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The baby-classes don't count for anything other than bragging rights. Dorna are obsessed with exaggerating the GP stats of the rider lineup which is why they obsess over 250 and 125 achievements. In reality, they are ancillary. How you do in the big show is what matters most. Stoner has as many wins as Rossi since 2007 when they've both had factory rides. That's what matters to GP teams.

Oki Doki... This then settles Rossi being The Best Ever if he would win just another Title, tied up with Agostini in Top Class, but with more wins. Forget the 15 with lower Classes ever being mentioned.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 10 2010, 06:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sure, pedrosa is obviously the equal of eddie lawson, and he and capirossi are both obviously better than schwantz, rainey, roberts senior, spencer, duke, sheene and surtees. It is about how good you end up being, not how you get there. If you want to argue about the number of premier class races available for stoner to compete in as against these all-time greats, that is another question, although this also applies to rossi to a much lesser extent.

The agostini overall record thing is a beat-up mainly of interest to dorna as lex says, and rossi fans. It is the last possible record for valentino to beat, but everyone including I suspect even agostini himself already knows rossi is better. It is also the one record that could never be surpassed given the inability of modern riders to compete in multiple classes in the same season, not that rossi's number of premier class wins even now is likely to be surpassed anytime soon either.

Yeah, I was just pushing the envelope! Top Class is what really counts!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 10 2010, 06:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Quite. Additionally, we were discussing Stoner's merits from the standpoint of the sponsors and the teams. Perhaps, Stoner is not the best corporate front man, but that shortcoming is more of an aggravation. His job (from the standpoint of teams and sponsors) is to put the bike on the top stop in the premier class. He is as good at Rossi in that respect since 2007.

I tend not to make historical adjustments to the all time list. I think proportional numbers like win percentage or wins per starts can help make those adjustments in an objective nature. Truth be told, it bothers me a little bit to see Stoner eclipse all of the American greats, but they were their own worst enemies. They trained one another to such a high level that none were able to dominate.

I think it was from 1983 through 1986, US riders only lost 2 races or some such stat. If one of them (take Lawson for instance) was able to dominate the golden era, the US would have a Doohan or Rossi of their own.

That's history. Stoner deserves his accolades without any asterisks or historical adjustments. If he maintains pace, Stoner will have more wins that Lawson before his 27th birthday. If Rossi retires, who knows.

Here you go Bro:

Year / USA Wins Top Class
1976 / 1
1977 / 1
1978 / 5
1979 / 5
1980 / 5
1981 / 4
1982 / 5
1983 / 12
1984 / 12
1985 / 11
1986 / 8
1987 / 8
1988 / 10
1989 / 13
1990 / 12
1991 / 12
1992 / 6
1993 / 9
1994 / 3
1999 / 4
2000 / 4
2005 / 1
2006 / 2
Total / 153

From 1983 till 1991 they did very well.

Note: In All Classes USA adds up 172 Total.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 10 2010, 06:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Quite. Additionally, we were discussing Stoner's merits from the standpoint of the sponsors and the teams. Perhaps, Stoner is not the best corporate front man, but that shortcoming is more of an aggravation. His job (from the standpoint of teams and sponsors) is to put the bike on the top stop in the premier class. He is as good at Rossi in that respect since 2007.

I tend not to make historical adjustments to the all time list. I think proportional numbers like win percentage or wins per starts can help make those adjustments in an objective nature. Truth be told, it bothers me a little bit to see Stoner eclipse all of the American greats, but they were their own worst enemies. They trained one another to such a high level that none were able to dominate.

I think it was from 1983 through 1986, US riders only lost 2 races or some such stat. If one of them (take Lawson for instance) was able to dominate the golden era, the US would have a Doohan or Rossi of their own.

That's history. Stoner deserves his accolades without any asterisks or historical adjustments. If he maintains pace, Stoner will have more wins that Lawson before his 27th birthday. If Rossi retires, who knows.

Still, Ducati and Honda wanted Rossi (Publicly) even if his 'Contract' hadn't expired!

Added Note: I also agree with the 'Win per Starts' stat mylexicon … But this includes 2006 as Top Class for Stoner, you cannot just take it away from there. It would be like saying 'Only the Seasons in which Rossi won the Championship' count.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Mar 11 2010, 12:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Still, Ducati and Honda wanted Rossi (Publicly) even if his 'Contract' hadn't expired!

Did they?

I remember seeing some "off the cuff" courteous type remarks from the likes of Suppo, when prompted heavily by the rumour creating media but I'd hardly call it "wanted him"

Besides something tells me if such a move was on the cards for Rossi or Stoner it would be very "hush hush".

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Mar 11 2010, 04:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner could have done worse. He's fine at Ducati and if he showed the interest in leaving he'd walk onto any team he wanted. But why change? He's got everything he needs and wants. Going to Yamaha with Rossi there is an instant second place status and the other teams can't support him technically. The GP10 is equal to any machine on the grid. Ducati is fighting with giants and winning & that is a fun thing to be involved with.

Marlboro was freaked out. If I was dropping millions into something where the marque rider was not showing up I guess I'd be pissed. No doctor able to find an obvious problem just made it worse. But when he was well again the label was right back up front centre so what more can they ask for? No one else has put the "beast" on the podium so often and there is no-one waiting in the wings that can either. Without Stoner they are off the podium which is bad for advertising. It is a lot of ancillary pressure for a rider to deal with but he seems to have done well despite the constant criticism.

Next year will tell whether 'people who matters' (read Honda/Yamaha/Ducati managers) consider Casey as the best rider present or not. I see no reason for Yamaha to demote Stoner to second place status if they are convinced that he is better than Rossi. The rossi being a good developer also shouldn't matter as supposeldly Casey can rider around small problems with the bike.

One thing I don't understand is when someone raises the issue of Casey not walking away from Ducati if it is so bad, people jump up saying he gets everything he want at Ducati. To me then there is no point in saying Casey rides an inferior bike. He is just choosing what suits him the best.

Cheers
Renjith

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 11 2010, 08:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Did they?

I remember seeing some "off the cuff" courteous type remarks from the likes of Suppo, when prompted heavily by the rumour creating media but I'd hardly call it "wanted him"

Besides something tells me if such a move was on the cards for Rossi or Stoner it would be very "hush hush".

What more do you want? An official statement from Suppo? But I haven't seen anything similar from Yamaha directed towards Stoner recently. Obviously it should be going on 'hush hush'