Give it a rest Vale

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(phleg @ Aug 15 2007, 12:52 PM) [snapback]84816[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Yet you don't notice the , means I'm KIDDING.

Fine, to satifsfy the hypocritical majority I'll edit it.


I can't believe you gave up after Roger was so critical of people misquoting and taking things out of context, he is gulity of everything he hates

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(roger-m @ Aug 15 2007, 01:03 PM) [snapback]84819[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
i like you tom, but you dont half talk out of your arse sometimes, you talk about things like tc and what effects it has yet you only ride a nippers bike


What i do and don't ride has nothing to do with this or any topic on this forum.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(roger-m @ Aug 15 2007, 01:25 PM) [snapback]84824[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
now theres a test ride to fight for.
all the experance i have with tc is on my mate m3 which i suspect is more than most


I've already told you Rog that TC on cars has no relevance to motogp, and being in a car that has TC is something many of us have done.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(roger-m @ Aug 15 2007, 01:36 PM) [snapback]84826[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
oh engineer now are you tom, you make statements like this yet offer no explanation as to how you came to this conclusion , tc is tc, it controls the traction. i.e calculates how much power to give to a wheel in a particular situation, bit like abs in reverse, true cars have more drive wheels but the principle is the same.


If you must know i am a student in automotive engineering, and you should already know i take an active interest in the technical side of racing. The biggest and most obvious reason why TC on your mates M3 has no relevance to motogp is the way a bike (unlike a car) is controlled with the riders bodyweight, so the rider has a huge impact on how much power the bike thinks it can unleash. Furthermore motogp systems will be designed to allow wheelspin to an extent because riding a bike on the actual limit of traction out of a corner is not ideal, it loads up the suspension and doesn't allow it to operate freely through its travel. It is also worth considering that rear wheel steering is still a usefull technique in grand prix racing and this needs to be considered in the TC program. Also what we commonly refer to as traction control when we discuss the electronics in motogp is often actualy the affect of wheelie control, using suspension travel sensors very different to what is going on with a BMW car. Shall i continue?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(roger-m @ Aug 15 2007, 02:08 PM) [snapback]84831[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
of course i no the difference between the way a bike is ridden compared to a car but tc is still tc sure there are differences in the programing to account for different variables between the different vehicles.
when was the last time you saw rear wheel steering on these modern bikes, the only times ive seen it is from riders that are known to switch it off.
you say in a earlier post that with tc you cant just open the throttle, i disagree, you also say rossi has had it since its conception, yet it was common knowledge he hardly ever used it because he preferred to relies on his own skill rather than electronics.,
you are not the only one who has studied performance engineering,
where do you study tom, kingston uni ??


Its also worth adding that motogp TC will reduce wheelspin by altering throttle position (without rider input), adjusting the fuel/air mixture and retardation of ignition. Cars on the other hand use a rather crude system of applying the brake to the wheel that appears to be going too fast. The systems are very much not comparible.

As for these 800's i saw slides from the back of the bikes at both Jerez and donington this year, and i watched Catalunya on the Tv yesterday and wheelspin was also apparent on that. Rossi may be one of the least TC dependant motogp riders but he has had electronicly controlled bikes built around him, with ride by wire systems opperating throttle butterflies without his input. riders like Casey and Dani were on 2 strokes two years ago, with a direct connection between their right wrist and the Throttle, this electronic stuff is way newer to them.

As for being able to just open the throttle, you are rigth that they can do that now, but so many variables like weight placement and smoothness are still fundamental to going quckly. Thre rider going the fastest is the rider with the best techniques.

And i study way up in Leeds University.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(roger-m @ Aug 15 2007, 02:38 PM) [snapback]84838[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>

1. just a different way of achieving the same result wouldn't you say ?

2. as i said in my earlier post that car tc was like abs in reverse so we agree on that.

3. although i think the newer systems work with the engine management systems in adjusting throttle input (drive by wire) so are probably more similar to the bike systems than we think.


1. I wouldn't say so because i don't look at it on such a basic level.

2. Yeah, that is a good way to look at it.

3. I couldn't claim to be 100% up to date on TC in road cars, but it is certainly possible that these more complex systems will find their way into our cars soon if they haven't already.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(michaelm @ Aug 15 2007, 03:38 PM) [snapback]84853[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>

However, I think that whilst Rossi's 125 and 250 championships are relevant when discussing Stoner and Pedrosa, they are not really relevant to Doohan and the American greats, as this pathway was not really open to most of them.


In those days tyre and chassis technology meant that the bikes had to be ridden in a way that favoured rear wheel steering. That made superbike riders more qualified than riders of smaller grand prix bikes because they would have high corner speed styles and rely very much on the front end. it wasn't untill the middle of the 90's that technology alowed this style to be effective in 500, before that only the most adaptable gp riders could step up successfully, now the tables have turned the opposite way.