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I have often argued that old guys hanging around taking up seats is not good for the sport so I can definitely agree with you here. Capirossi should have gone to WSBK just like all the other old guys and let new blood in or CV stay.
I can not see Suzuki management allowing the present state to continue especially in this economic environment. That is why I predict that with Capirossi gone they will get Pedrosa and a new sponsor on board and we will see regular podiums. I also predict a Suzuki satellite team of at least 1 bike but probably 2. You read it here first folks!
Do you mean:
- wildly reported or
- widely speculated or
- wildly speculated
Because surly it has not been confirmed that he has signed, has it? I don't know what those jurnos call it but I strongly doubt the report anything of what you suggest
Who you calling surly?
Or do you mean Shirley or surely?
But agree, to early to call with all these rumours being rife in so many areas and no doubt many fed by the behind the scenes machinations of the rider management teams themselves.
For some reason I reckon that Stoner will sign with Team LiquidGas and compete in the Tour de France, Rossi will go to open water sailing on a yacht with a bevy of lasses, Lorenzo will take up golf and get a US Masters invite but then drowns when he dives into Raes Creek after holing out on the 12th, Pedrosa will follow to golf but the clubs can't be cut down enough so he moves to horse racing as a jockey and wins the Kentucky Derby.
Gaz
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V, I kinda disagree and little bit agree. Not all "rookies" in MotoGP are created equal. I think they knew they had somebody special in hand, plus being the current 250 champ helped. Look at Pedro, are you gonna tell me they weren't looking at him for the future and willing to do anything for him? As with pedro, I think Honda felt Rossi was their future and certainly did listen to him. This idea that Honda doesn't listen to their riders is a bit over the top, they do, just perhaps not to the same degree as say Yamaha. Those engineers are not riders for the most part, they certainly do take their cues from the racer.
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Who you calling surly?
Or do you mean Shirley or surely?
But agree, to early to call with all these rumours being rife in so many areas and no doubt many fed by the behind the scenes machinations of the rider management teams themselves.
For some reason I reckon that Stoner will sign with Team LiquidGas and compete in the Tour de France, Rossi will go to open water sailing on a yacht with a bevy of lasses, Lorenzo will take up golf and get a US Masters invite but then drowns when he dives into Raes Creek after holing out on the 12th, Pedrosa will follow to golf but the clubs can't be cut down enough so he moves to camel racing in Qatar because he's smaller and lighter than the 12 yr old Bangladeshi boys they usually hire.
Gaz
Nobody says "fixed it for yah" anymore. But you get the idea.
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On another thread you called out a poster for "cherry picking" (as you put it), yet it seems to me you have done a little here to make your point that--Loris is/was all washed up and some "old guy just riding around crashing."
You pad Vermi's stats by going back to 2006, since you tell us he had 7 podiums. Its kinda impossible for Capi to match that since he was not on the Suzuki until 08. But since you're gonna go back to 06, well then allow me to pad Capi's stats. In the time Vermi got his 7 podium & one win, Capi got 13 podiums and 4 wins (since 06). Advantage: Capi
You mention crashing, yet when they were both at Suzuki the first year Vermi DNF (or came last) 3 times to Capi's 1. Seems to me, Vermi did his fair share, infact more than Capi at this point. So you must be talking about the second year, where Capi DNFed 3 times, yet still managed to beat his younger teammate in the standings. Advantage: Capi
You correctly allude to the combined points, over the two years they were at Suzuki, Vermi had 6 more points combined in that period, not exactly earth shattering stuff, eh (since you made the point that 4 points wasnt so big of a deal). Regardless, racing is much about what have you done for me lately, and the fact is Capi outscored his younger teammate the last year they were together, with more finishes in the higher positions in races and 3 positions higher (9 to 12) in year end classification. Advantage: Capi
You see, cherry picking can go both ways, but with a bit of in-depth analysis, you will see that Capi was upward trending while his younger teammate was declining. If we are going to compare podiums while they were both at Suzuki, the figure is more like 2 Vermi for 1 Capi, that is Vewrmi got 2, while Capi got 1; not exactly earth shattering stuff. But lets compare top 5 finishes, since its clear that Suzuki is a sub par bike and getting into the top five against 4 "aliens' is like a win. In the last year they were together, Vermi got one lone top five, Loris scored 4 top 5s, yes, Capi broke into the top five 4 times while Vermi only managed to do this once. Advantage: Capi
For the record, I think both were decent riders, but if I had my choice I'd give the nod to Capi, even if he is "old". Capi has a wealth of knowledge and experience. The stats you sighted for Vermi was mostly in 07 when the Suzuki has been the better incantation of the Suzuki than compared to subsequent years, so your numbers are certainly cherry picked, we can only imagine what Capi might have done on the stronger Suzuki of the last few years. But let me remind you that even in 07, Vermi didn;t beat his teammate. John Hopkins beat him finishing overall in 4th year end standings. In fact, Vermi almost never beat his teammate. To be fair, the riders's results from the two years Capi & Vermi were teammates (the numbers we should be comparing) are not earth shatteringly different ;yet, Capi got the better the last year. Now consider what direction Suzuki was taking at the time they canned Vermi. It would make sense for them to keep Capi considering their plan to bring in fresh new blood; then who better of the two guys, Capi a rider experienced in all levels of grand prix racing, including 250 titles, the class from which Suzuki was recruiting, to impart knowledge and understanding, I think the choice was clear. Advantage: Capi
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Very nice analysis Jumkie. Even though I don't agree to many of your posts (me partially being a rossi bopper
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Very nice analysis Jumkie. Even though I don't agree to many of your posts (me partially being a rossi bopper), this was spot on. For me Vermi was always a goot wet weather rider with just average results in dry. I would pick Capi over CV any day
Ah, don't take my anti-bopper stuff too seriously (read my sig). Its all just meant to get under Rog's skin. Hahahaha
I think Honda realized as Rossi did that if they had taken him serious from day one he/they might have won the title in his rookie year. Both Rossi/Burgess and Honda took it as a learning year and they regretted that later. Not planing on doing the same mistake again Honda brought in another "special" guy and gave him some sort of priority from day one.
Racing is based on few numbers as they have so little practice to take from and I suppose that could be the reason why some teams or factories always seem to overcompensate or make changes when it was way to early to know if that was the problem in the first hand.
I agree in the "not listening" part, although that of doesn't stop them from declaring the bike as the winner.
Jumkie, you know my thoughts from previous posts on the Vermuelen vs Capirossi side of things and I agree with you here.
My feelings on Vermi are that he had a chance but in my mind blew his future by resigning with Suzuki when it is said other rides were on offer with satellite teams, yet he chose the poisoned chalice as it were. Thus, to me he made his bed.
That said I am an unabashed fan of his in terms of ability but that does not mean that I cannot admit that Capirossi outshone him and probably provided a better value for money prospect in development terms. Hopper, well we have discussed that and whilst his results may have been better I still suspect that Vermuelen provided the better value for money there (ie. development etc, just as Capirossi wins that over Vermi), particularly the last year or so given injuries.
But to today and I personally feel that Capirossi has to be closing in on a forced retirement as he so seems to be hanging on for nil result.
If we are to say that Vermi got his just rewards after a few non-result years that Capirossi has to now be in the same stormy waters as he has produced little and it would appear that Suzuki has not improved (bike wise). Thus to me time has to be drawn on a career, be that Capirex or Suzuki at the top level.
Sadly with Capirex I see part of the problem being ego (not used in a negative sense) as unlike many he has shown little to absolutely no interested (reported) in WSBK and I see this as possibly the problem. Basically I fear that he sees WSBK as 'beneath' him and as such he will not 'diminish' himself by going there so instead will hang around MGP until someone pushes him out, but will he be pushed is the question?
Does he have potential as a leader or management?
Gaz
I don't believe I was "cherry picking" anything.....I was stating that Vermeulen had done the most for Suzuki as far as wins and podiums in the MotoGP era, and then was dropped from the Suzuki program, while they kept, IMO, a rider on his way out. I then moved to the fair comparison of Vermeulen and Capirossi as far as 08 and 09 seasons on the same bike with the points total..
See my post below....how is stating that CV having more points than Capirossi be considered cherry picking when it is the truth?? That is my only comparison between Capi and Vermin. I added the brackets with the season info since I believe this is were you got your cherry picking theory from.
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Where your logic is flawed is when you argue that CV has a win in Suzuki which Capi doesn't. However, at the time of the win, both were in different machineries and hence the results cannot be compared. How do you know Capi wouldn't have won with a Suz in 2007? And btw it was not a dry win. A wet race is a lottery and is not indicative of the whole season. Unless the entire motogp season is run in tropical countries with 24 hr rain, I don't think how the CV win in wet can count for anything indicative of his development skills/ dry race pace (Mind you, he was beaten by his team mate over the course of the season).Even if you look at 2008, he finished just 10 points below his team mate in his first year with the team which itself is commendable.
For any brand, racing is mostly business. They are looking for return for their investment and not past history. For Suzuki, CVs win means jack (Its not like the VR+Yamaha story) . Obviously, Capi is considered a better developer with experience in multitudes of machinery and a very good racer. So why not??
I don't think it's fair to say it is flawed logic. It is impossible to compare people over time but we do it anyway regardless of how logical we may or may not be. However, I think the general point still rings true. The 2006-2007 Suzuki was a very different bike from the 2008 spec, and I'll say what I always say (b/c otherwise I'd be inconsistent), the control tire as it was first introduced in 2008 has killed Suzuki (and Kawasaki for that matter). All of their electronics come from Mitsubishi and I'm not sure whether they are up to snuff, but regardless, changing the tires is probably akin to canceling several years of traction control and fuel management work. Control tires also nullify chassis development work (I suspect this is part of the reason Kawasaki quit).
CV and Capirossi both rode the 2008 bike without much success so I'm not sure it's worthwhile to say Suzuki should prefer either one of them. If Suzuki are going to suck balls, they should hire the cheapest, development riders they can find so they can spend their money on the bike. By the time the bike is halfway competitive again, a world class rider will be able to pilot Suzuki to a WC. I don't think CV should have stayed, though his Kawasaki move looks as bad as JH's, and I don't think Capi should stay either.
I will say this once more.....IMO Suzuki kicked their best guy out. CV is the one that gave them the most podiums and wins for MotoGP. He is the younger of the 2 and did not seem to be "well I will sign another year and see how it goes", he wanted to ride for free for that team.
CV ,in the 2 seasons he was on the same bike as Capirossi, scored more points. So....with what CV had given Suzuki as far as results and that he had also beaten Capirossi in points over both seasons, he was robbed.
I never compared CV to Capirossi for 2007 and 2006.
no kidding...Hopkins and CV were mauled when they went back to the WSBK grid. Hopkins got run over and CV torn his knee to bits. They could not get lucky period... if it were raining ......s, they would get hit in the head with a ....!!
Then you got to hand it to Rossi compa
You have to hand it to him compa, I just thought Rossi was the Best Rider Ever, not the Best Manipulator Ever, or is it what Rossi has achieved? (Obviously it is a joke of mine compa!)
Dorna and Repsol (and Honda) extremely want a Spanish Champion, more so if it is Pedrosa, they won't get that at Suzuki in 2011 by no means. If Pedrosa has had 5 Seasons (by 2011) without being able to develop the most friendly type of bike, with the most backup investment behind, what makes you think he will be able to develop the Ducati? Spanish media is really tired of 'speaking greatly' and making so many excuses for each time Pedrosa has not delivered, most Spanish blogs talk about how much crap they have had to listen, as the unfulfilled promise. And a lot say Elias in that Repsol would have done better.
I don't see Pedrosa as #1 at HRC anymore, and have not read anything different to Suppo saying that nothing has been signed with Stoner, talk is high but nothing signed yet. Did Stoner already sign and I don't know?
As said before… Dorna, Repsol, and Pedrosa Spanish. And I do not think HRC asked much to Pedrosa, and less as a Rookie in 2006, remember who wan? Honda believed they could build the very best bike, and needed to get a great technical Rider for it, what have they achieved since?
Let me give you another advantage that Suzuki may have thought of... Capirossi help develop a bloody rocket in which young blood kicked butex!!! Remember 2007?
This is where it is wrong, 2009 Rizla Suzuki: Capirossi 110 points, four 5th. Vermuelen 106 points, one 5th.
We can discuss 2008, but as Jumk said … What have you done for me lately? (Jumks also says Rossi is the Greatest!
I said in the 2 seasons (this means combined) he scored more points than Capirossi.....why are you singling out the 2009 season only. I said this and brought up his win and podiums to state I did not think Suzuki kept the right guy.
CV 2008 128 points 2009 106 for a total of 234 points
Capirossi 2008 108 points 2009 110 for a total of 228 points
Where are the cherry picker police when you need them.......I have been violated in broad daylight!!
I understand the idea of "what have you done lately" or "you are only as good as you last race"....but I think Suzuki was wrong with this one.
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It's funny how you club the points in 2 years to support your argument. Please understand, there is no world championship position awarded for the cumulative points over years LOL...
The fact is
in 2008: CV outscored Capi by 10 points (not earth shattering as it was Capi's 1st year with the team where as it was CV's 3rd season with suzuki. It matters)
in 2009: CV was beaten by Capi by 4 points.
As jumkie said, the trend is - CV was going down where was Capi's graph in Suzuki was climbing up. I don't think CV in 2010 Suzuki could have done any better.
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WTF are you talking about ? Last year 2009 capi finished 3 place's higher than vermy
On a different note. Your avi is an interesting choice to use here on a worldwide forum. maybe the other members should click the link so they know who there talking to.
Factorys avi
