Fiat Sponsor replacement eludes Yamaha for 2011

Talpa said:

Nor Rossi or myself technically compared a 500 to an 800 and it is absurd to suggest otherwise.....

I believe it was bunny who speculated that an 800 is as hard to master as a 500.......not me. I just stated that it is absurd to compare the two, which it is.



And to correct, rossi stated it was 'more like' a 500 not that it was like a 500

http://www.powerslide.net/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif

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I am no proponent of the 800 formula, and the great 500 riders of the 1980s and the racing between them is what changed me from being a car racing fan since fairly early in my childhood to predominantly a bike racing fan, but it is possible that whilst perhaps less dangerous in terms of the type of accidents which occur 800s may be as hard to master as 500s, which at least gave some indication that the limit was being approached. The current crop of top riders look to me to be as talented as any in the history of the sport, and it is hardlly their fault that when they were born has precluded them from proving themselves on a 500. I presume you would not argue that valentino rossi who I would not dispute could master any type of bike can never be compared with say mike hailwood because the 500 he won on actually had functioning tyres and brakes.

michaelm' timestamp='1298081069' post='266501 said:

I am no proponent of the 800 formula, and the great 500 riders of the 1980s and the racing between them is what changed me from being a car racing fan since fairly early in my childhood to

predominantly a bike racing fan, but it is possible that whilst perhaps less dangerous in terms of the type of accidents which

occur 800s may be as hard to master as 500s, which at least

gave some indication that the limit was being approached. The

current crop of top riders look to me to be as talented as any in

the history of the sport, and it is hardlly their fault that when they

were born has precluded them from proving themselves on a

500. I presume you would not argue that valentino rossi who I

would not dispute could master any type of bike can never be

compared with say mike hailwood because the 500 he won on

actually had functioning tyres and brakes.

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of course I'm not saying that the current crop couldn't ride a 500, I beleive that none of them would have had anywhere near

the initial success that they had in the 800's or even 990's to a degree.



For example, Would you say that Dani could have finished 2nd in his first race on a 500, or Jorge? Or would Stoner have won 11 races in his first year on a 500? Including the very first race?

I would say no, for the obvious technical reasons which as history shows, many great riders needed time to adapt to the 500's. They were nowhere near as aided as the 800's. In saying this though I believe that Stoner, Randy and Spies would have eventually adapted well to a 500.....

Talpa said:

of course I'm not saying that the current crop couldn't ride a 500, I beleive that none of them would have had anywhere near

the initial success that they had in the 800's or even 990's to a degree.



For example, Would you say that Dani could have finished 2nd in his first race on a 500, or Jorge? Or would Stoner have won 11 races in his first year on a 500? Including the very first race?

I would say no, for the obvious technical reasons which as history shows, many great riders needed time to adapt to the 500's. They were nowhere near as aided as the 800's. In saying this though I believe that Stoner, Randy and Spies would have eventually adapted well to a 500.....

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Sure, it was a huge step from a 250 to a 500, and in the golden age superbikes probably provided a better preparation; krsr actually did win in his debut season coming from that background.



My point is more as we have discussed previously that, whist these bikes are easier to ride short of the limit and are more similar to 250s (probably by design) than 500s were, actually getting the vital last few percent of performance out of them is as difficult as it has ever been and crashes are no less frequent but appear to occur with less warning, a further indictment of the stupidity of the formula. Perhaps dorna's new formula is going to produce bikes more like superbikes because I am not sure that moto 2 success will translate well to the current premier class bikes.

Couldn't agree more

Talpa said:

Just your technical definition of the similarites between the 500's and 800's will suffice, for that's the point you brought up is it not?

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Actually, it is not, what gave you that idea?

Jumkie said:

You could have just saved a lot of typing and simply said: OWNED

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Sure I could have, but this is more fun.

Talpa said:

of course I'm not saying that the current crop couldn't ride a 500, I beleive that none of them would have had anywhere near

the initial success that they had in the 800's or even 990's to a degree.



For example, Would you say that Dani could have finished 2nd in his first race on a 500, or Jorge? Or would Stoner have won 11 races in his first year on a 500? Including the very first race?

I would say no, for the obvious technical reasons which as history shows, many great riders needed time to adapt to the 500's.

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Stoner didn't have that success in his first year at all, it was his second. Biaggi won his first 500cc race toward the end of the era, and if you look at the rookie of the year placements over the years, success is harder to find now than it was in the past for new riders.

stiefel said:

Actually, it is not, what gave you that idea?

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'Yeah, f&k all those .......s that compare 800's to 500's. They obviously know nothing about the sport. ........



By the way, check out this lovely little piece of writing.



http://motomatters.c...3_round_up.html



The ninth paragraph is especially interesting. Read it talpa, I promise you'll like it.'









I believe this is you.........Unless you have a muddled disposition when attempting succinct sarcasm......





And BTW, who are 'all' those .......s? The only quote you've supplied is Rossi, and this very vague comment was obviously taken well out of context for the argumentative purposes of yourself and others with a similar misplaced disposition. In fact-the only riders qualified to Discuss the differences between the current 800's and the 500 are Loris, VR and to a much lesser extent Hopper.....



For as J4NO pointed out, VR's comment was based on the style which needs to be adopted for the 800 Duck-point and shoot--being more like a 500.....there was no technical comparison made by VR on the similarities between a 500 and an 800 and I'm sure if you asked VR to comment on Bunny's assertion that CS would have no problems winning straight away on a 500 because of the 800cc wild beast he's been riding.....well use your imagination



So before you start sprouting 'Owned' you should at least provide valid argument, such as your accurate technical definitions of the two machines and their similarities (which no one else seems to know about ).......instead of abstract terminology and definitions with no substance in relation to the debate........hmmmmm......sounds strikingly like another member

Talpa said:

Couldn't agree more

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I'll bet you hardly even tried.

Tom said:

Stoner didn't have that success in his first year at all, it was his second. Biaggi won his first 500cc race toward the end of the era, and if you look at the rookie of the year placements over the years, success is harder to find now than it was in the past for new riders.

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If you look back, Max is probably the only one, certainly in the 80's and 90's, to have such success so early on a 500-however short lived and nowhere near as consistent (Mick won by a large margin in 1998).



However I do agree that success is still very hard to achieve for new riders, but this has little to do with the difficulty of the machine to actually ride as in the 500 days. More so the stupidity, technical finessing by engineers, and expense of the 800cc formula......



Rainey is probably one of the few exceptions in the modern 500 era and it took him 12 rounds to win his first race in 1988, Rossi of course in 2000 took 9 rounds to win, Roberts prior to that was in a different league........

Keshav said:

I'll bet you hardly even tried.

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You know I always make an effort......

Removing those who have ridden the 500/800 combination from the discussion, one cannot say with any level of surety that the current young crop would or would not be able to adjust or be fast on the 500cc beasts, simply because never know within the current structure. But to absolutely rule out that one or some may be successful is likely somewhat naive as has been shown across the eras where riders can adjust quickly to different formulae or classes, or where a less performing rider suddenly finds a 'comfort' level and achieves 'unexpected' results.



What I do find an interesting point in all the could they, would they, should they, comparison discussions is that there is constant comparison backwards in eras, yet very little discussion of forward comparison (ie. how would 500cc riders have gone on these 800cc machines that are found today).







Gaz

This is crap.....

A fast rider is a fast rider, on a 500, an 800, or a WSB.



Put all of Rossi, Jorge, Danni, or Stoner on the Aprilia WSB and they would be at the front (with enough time to find the limits and set the bike up). Even if there are slight differences in the riding style, it takes the same fundamental things to be fast on a 250, a 500, an 800, or a 990.

What makes guys like Rossi, Jorge, Danni and Stoner fast, is their ability to find the last 3%, but that last 3% will be hard to find on any bike.

Nuts said:

This is crap.....

A fast rider is a fast rider, on a 500, an 800, or a WSB.



Put all of Rossi, Jorge, Danni, or Stoner on the Aprilia WSB and they would be at the front (with enough time to find the limits and set the bike up). Even if there are slight differences in the riding style, it takes the same fundamental things to be fast on a 250, a 500, an 800, or a 990.

What makes guys like Rossi, Jorge, Danni and Stoner fast, is their ability to find the last 3%, but that last 3% will be hard to find on any bike.

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I agree about the last 3%. I guess it is reasonable to speculate whether the current jockey sized riders could have handled the 500s in their full on un-electronically assisted form though. Talpa may have a point that fewer riders get top-spec bikes given the expense of producing them these days and the rapidity of change. I do think obtaining the last few percent on these bikes is difficult though, if a different kind of difficulty, and the number of crashes ensuing seems no less as evidenced by rossi having the most significant crash of his career in 2010, even if the crashes are perhaps less dangerous than in the 500s.

Nuts said:

This is crap.....

A fast rider is a fast rider, on a 500, an 800, or a WSB.



Put all of Rossi, Jorge, Danni, or Stoner on the Aprilia WSB and they would be at the front (with enough time to find the limits and set the bike up). Even if there are slight differences in the riding style, it takes the same fundamental things to be fast on a 250, a 500, an 800, or a 990.

What makes guys like Rossi, Jorge, Danni and Stoner fast, is their ability to find the last 3%, but that last 3% will be hard to find on any bike.

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Exactly.

It seems to me that you could pick any run of 4 years of 500cc racing and you would have more winners then the last 4 years of 800cc racing.



New guys come into 800cc and it takes them a full year to even get top 5. Including WSBK Champs and 250cc Champs. Old guys who did well on 500's have proved themselves incapable of riding 800's fast see Capirossi.



Crashes even with traction control, wheelie control, and significantly better rubber seem to me to be quite frequent and in 2010 devastating. What did we have - broken back, several shattered legs, shoulders and others. Hardly tame.



The further 500's drift into the past the more myths are created about them. The way some people talk they were the Devil incarnate rather than a fully developed race bike that had been in service for many more years then we will ever see a formula remain unchanged in the future.



I would say that an 800cc MotoGP bike is comparatively easy to ride but definitely more difficult to ride at the limit and hence the reason no one but 4 guys seem to be able to do it.

Mental Anarchist said:

It seems to me that you could pick any run of 4 years of 500cc racing and you would have more winners then the last 4 years of 800cc racing.



New guys come into 800cc and it takes them a full year to even get top 5. Including WSBK Champs and 250cc Champs. Old guys who did well on 500's have proved themselves incapable of riding 800's fast see Capirossi.



Crashes even with traction control, wheelie control, and significantly better rubber seem to me to be quite frequent and in 2010 devastating. What did we have - broken back, several shattered legs, shoulders and others. Hardly tame.



The further 500's drift into the past the more myths are created about them. The way some people talk they were the Devil incarnate rather than a fully developed race bike that had been in service for many more years then we will ever see a formula remain unchanged in the future.



I would say that an 800cc MotoGP bike is comparatively easy to ride but definitely more difficult to ride at the limit and hence the reason no one but 4 guys seem to be able to do it.

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dito

in addition to that it's not only rider talent in the 800s but electronics play a huge factor. if you lose 0.2 per lap just because your traction control isn't as good as the factory bikes its almost impossible to win under normal circumstances

with the 500s and 990s a satellite machine could win if the rider was good enough but now?

talking about this 80/20% theory, i'm sure machinery is more important with the 800s

CaramaC said:

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omg thats beautiful

maybe a good thing there's no title sponsor on it for the moment,if yamaha offered a version of the r1 like that...

Money from within, Yamaha Extended Service



http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=43367



Yamaha WSBK getting some Monster money. Where would racing be without energy drinks



Following a successful 2010 season where Monster Energy became the ‘Official Energy Drink Supplier’ for the Yamaha World Superbike Team, the relationship has been extended for the new season. The 2011 team sees new rider pairing Marco Melandri and Eugene Laverty both sporting strong Monster Energy branding on their helmets and as the team’s relationship strengthens the YZF-R1 race bikes of Melandri and Laverty will also now carry subtle M-claw logos on their fairings. Monster Energy will continue to have a strong presence in the Yamaha World Superbike Team hospitality.