fausto sez we must cut costs

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Dec 20 2008, 06:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It took you four seconds to read Curvey's post?
No but four seconds was the first number that came into my head.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Dec 20 2008, 07:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think casey has been fast on any bike he has ridden and would be fast on a 500 two-stroke without electronic aids, the question more being how much he would crash on such a bike compared to his 250 days, and as I have argued in previous discussions verging on the interminable I believe factors such as the likelihood of him having matured as a rider and being on a front -line bike would come into play as well as the possibility, which I do not completely dismiss, that he is somehow uniquely advantaged by electronic aids.

That's the point. I think that Casey would still be fast minus the rider aids. Electronics have helped him just the same as it helped everyone (maybe not everyone: Hayden). If you take them away I think that we would see Casey pushing Valentino just as hard.

Even with electronics, Casey is still one hell of a rider. Hayden's comments about Casey and the Ducati sum it all up.

Hayden "Whatever they are paying Casey, it's not enough"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Dec 22 2008, 01:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's the point. I think that Casey would still be fast minus the rider aids. Electronics have helped him just the same as it helped everyone (maybe not everyone: Hayden). If you take them away I think that we would see Casey pushing Valentino just as hard.

Even with electronics, Casey is still one hell of a rider. Hayden's comments about Casey and the Ducati sum it all up.

Hayden "Whatever they are paying Casey, it's not enough"

And, I concur. I think he is a helluva rider that just happened to figure out how to ride w/the aids.

It seems as though that is the only way to ride the Ducati--grab it by the scruff of the neck and toss/yank it around....ride it like ya just STOLE IT!! (but, isn't that an inherent trait in all ducatis? I seem to remember that the harder you ride it, the harder it goes...)

Man, oh man....what do we have to pay $$$$ to see all of the guys on 990cc, no fuel restrictions, control ECU....how awesome would that be, watching Hayden, Hopkins, Stoner, Rossi sliding the rear EVERYWHERE!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tlrwinder @ Dec 20 2008, 06:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You, my friend, are hilarious.

I would imagine that Stoner has evolved himself into a rider 'that simply cannot run at the front without the help of electronic aid'.

Could he be Top Dawg on a big 'stroker?? Not with the current style he uses, which is 'lean over, go into corner, rip throttle WIDE ...... OPEN and let the bike-brains sort it out....

The big 2-stroke bikes are about nothing BUT throttle control, so did Stoner display that talent on the 250s??

(Ha, Casey on a 550-600cc 2-stroke would spend more time upside-down in the gravel than JorgeLorenzo did in '08!)
Hey mate, you do realize that Stoner turns Traction Control completely off during Qualifying? You know, the part of the weekend he seems to dominate the most?

He doesn't crash much in qualifying...

Additionally, in 2007 at Phillip Island pre-season testing, he had no TC system yet, and posted the fastest time, and reeled off an incredible race simulation.

Watch this video of Stoner lapping the GP7 without TC(at 5:19) If you still think he has poor throttle control, then you are in denial.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4ffRj8eD_Y


This TC talk is just fanciful.

Do either one of you two KNOW DEFINITIVELY when TC is on or off? What are your sources?

It LOOKS to me like the Duc is highly aided by TC and just "turning off" that .... would be like turning off the electronic aids on a commercial aircraft - potentially very dangerous.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Dec 24 2008, 08:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hey mate, you do realize that Stoner turns Traction Control completely off during Qualifying? You know, the part of the weekend he seems to dominate the most?

He doesn't crash much in qualifying...

Additionally, in 2007 at Phillip Island pre-season testing, he had no TC system yet, and posted the fastest time, and reeled off an incredible race simulation.

Watch this video of Stoner lapping the GP7 without TC(at 5:19) If you still think he has poor throttle control, then you are in denial.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4ffRj8eD_Y


This TC talk is just fanciful.

Um, yeah....It would be interesting to know your source of info in regards to Casey's TC usage.

And, that youtube clip....all it shows me is another ducati struggling for grip on corner exit-- typical bucking bronco, be it Capirex, Bayliss or Stoner. The boy knows how to ride/manhandle that machine, but the video clip proves nothing. At all.

To clarify; I do not think he has poor throttle control. I can see where you get that impression of me upon re-reading my other post. Doesn't he have dirt-tracking/flat-tracking experience? Most of the riders that come from that style have good throttle control.

Man, I really wish we could see all of these guys on big-engined bikes with no TC....

Oh, yeah....don't forget to direct us to any quotes or webpage links that confirm Stoner's qualifying settings

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tlrwinder @ Dec 19 2008, 07:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Could he be Top Dawg on a big 'stroker?? Not with the current style he uses, which is 'lean over, go into corner, rip throttle WIDE ...... OPEN and let the bike-brains sort it out....

The big 2-stroke bikes are about nothing BUT throttle control, so did Stoner display that talent on the 250s??

(Ha, Casey on a 550-600cc 2-stroke would spend more time upside-down in the gravel than JorgeLorenzo did in '08!)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tlrwinder @ Dec 20 2008, 01:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm just saying that he would have to seriously RE-VAMP his riding style, his whole thought process of how to react to what the bike is doing underneath him.

Was any other rider able to 'trust' their machine's electronics to the extent that Casey was able to? No, I do not think so. Hence, the advantage.

Of course Casey would have to adapt his current riding style to ride a 500cc 2-stroke, but so would every other rider ont he grid. The sport has moved on and so has the technology and therefore riding technique required.

Also, Casey's speed has not come simply as a result of "trusting" the bike. That gives Casey no credit at all for his feel and understanding of the bike and its movements, the same feel and understanding that makes all the best riders as good as they are.

take a pay cut style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tlrwinder @ Dec 27 2008, 04:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Um, yeah....It would be interesting to know your source of info in regards to Casey's TC usage.
AMCN's interview with Casey Stoner at the end of 2007. Casey himself said he almost always turns it off during QP. So, essentially, claiming Stoner cannot ride fast without TC is nonsense. He is probably the strongest rider in QP, where he doesn't use TC.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tlrwinder @ Dec 27 2008, 04:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And, that youtube clip....all it shows me is another ducati struggling for grip on corner exit-- typical bucking bronco, be it Capirex, Bayliss or Stoner. The boy knows how to ride/manhandle that machine, but the video clip proves nothing. At all.
Did you listen to the commentary? That bike had no electronics fitted to it yet!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Dec 27 2008, 01:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>AMCN's interview with Casey Stoner at the end of 2007. Casey himself said he almost always turns it off during QP. So, essentially, claiming Stoner cannot ride fast without TC is nonsense. He is probably the strongest rider in QP, where he doesn't use TC.
FYI, they all ride with little or no TC on Q-tires.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Did you listen to the commentary? That bike had no electronics fitted to it yet!
And then it MUST be true...
If I had a dime for every time a team try to fake something in racing I'd be a billionare.
Doesn't mean it is false, just that a commentary even directly from team manager or rider doesn't make it true.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Dec 27 2008, 11:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And then it MUST be true...
If I had a dime for every time a team try to fake something in racing I'd be a billionare.
Doesn't mean it is false, just that a commentary even directly from team manager or rider doesn't make it true.
My dear friend, we all make conclusions based on the evidence that we have at our disposal. In this instance, we have no evidence to suggest that this claim is inaccurate. So until evidence emerges that casts doubt on this claim, we can conclude, beyond any plausible doubts, that it is accurate.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Jan 4 2009, 12:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My dear friend, we all make conclusions based on the evidence that we have at our disposal. In this instance, we have no evidence to suggest that this claim is inaccurate. So until evidence emerges that casts doubt on this claim, we can conclude, beyond any plausible doubts, that it is accurate.

Well, you may base your conclusions on hearsay, but I don't and for any practiacal and principal reasons most people would not consider a tribute like that as "proven beyond doubts".
Besides, and most important of all, the commentator doesn't say TC is not present, he only says that "electonics is yet to smooth the ducati power. That means little more than lack of optimization and testing and suggest there's more mapping to do. Quite obvious on a new bike, but is suere doesn't say it's without TC.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Jan 4 2009, 06:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My dear friend, we all make conclusions based on the evidence that we have at our disposal. In this instance, we have no evidence to suggest that this claim is inaccurate. So until evidence emerges that casts doubt on this claim, we can conclude, beyond any plausible doubts, that it is accurate.
"My dear friend, we all make conclusions based on the evidence that we have at our disposal." And, I hope, we all use our knowledge and experience to filter the so-called "evidence" (remember Ben Franklin's adage, “Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.”) to draw our conclusions and theories. In this case we have no "evidence" at all - only subjective comment and conjecture. There is no way, in this case, that anyone can, "conclude, beyond any plausible doubts, that it is accurate."

I personally tend to lean more towards Babel's analysis of the situation at hand...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Jan 3 2009, 11:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"My dear friend, we all make conclusions based on the evidence that we have at our disposal." And, I hope, we all use our knowledge and experience to filter the so-called "evidence" (remember Ben Franklin's adage, “Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.”) to draw our conclusions and theories. In this case we have no "evidence" at all - only subjective comment and conjecture. There is no way, in this case, that anyone can, "conclude, beyond any plausible doubts, that it is accurate."

I personally tend to lean more towards Babel's analysis of the situation at hand...

This is ......... Some of you guys are making a conscious decision to "choose" not to believe the statement. You can apply your cherry-picking-which-truths-you-choose-to-believe process to any statement made at any time. Unless you have a contrary statement from a higher authority - you have no argument per se. You're just making negative speculations because the statement in the video inconveniently conflicts with your much vaunted opinions, themselves being largely based on your own subjective speculation. It's not for RCV to prove the statement is true. It's up to you to disprove it.

What's more salient - at any rate - is that the footage is just him doing some initial testing - no mention is made of his lap times. Not the same as saying he was riding competitively in racing conditions.

I agree that it is speculative to say that stoner would be rossi-fast on a premier-class bike with less electronic aids, whilst it is not speculative to say rossi would be so.

However it is also quite speculative to contend, as many (not including babel) do, that stoner is uniquely advantaged by the current electronic aids, and this is the main thing which gets stoner fans going whenever this topic is raised.

On the topic of the thread it is obvious that costs need to be cut, although changing the regulations every 6 months may not be the best way to achieve this. For many reasons I support reducing electronic assistance, at least to the extent of removing track position aware soft or hardware and probably ride by wire throttles.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Jan 5 2009, 12:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is ......... Some of you guys are making a conscious decision to "choose" not to believe the statement. You can apply your cherry-picking-which-truths-you-choose-to-believe process to any statement made at any time. Unless you have a contrary statement from a higher authority - you have no argument per se. You're just making negative speculations because the statement in the video inconveniently conflicts with your much vaunted opinions, themselves being largely based on your own subjective speculation. It's not for RCV to prove the statement is true. It's up to you to disprove it.

What's more salient - at any rate - is that the footage is just him doing some initial testing - no mention is made of his lap times. Not the same as saying he was riding competitively in racing conditions.
<u>Mick D just got owned...</u>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jan 4 2009, 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well, you may base your conclusions on hearsay, but I don't and for any practiacal and principal reasons most people would not consider a tribute like that as "proven beyond doubts".
Besides, and most important of all, the commentator doesn't say TC is not present, he only says that "electonics is yet to smooth the ducati power. That means little more than lack of optimization and testing and suggest there's more mapping to do. Quite obvious on a new bike, but is suere doesn't say it's without TC.
1. The evidence is from essentially one of the most reputable commentators in Australian motorsport
2. Most importantly, <u>we have no evidence to dispute the validity of his claim</u>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Jan 5 2009, 05:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. The evidence is from essentially one of the most reputable commentators in Australian motorsport
2. Most importantly, <u>we have no evidence to dispute the validity of his claim</u>
3. He never says it's without TC, just that the electronics isn't dialed in yet. True too any new bike.

Let's not forget that Stoner weren't particulary fast in the first test sessions. It was only after new year that he and the bike clicked together after major change to the electronics.

There is no evidence to consider, as the guy never says it's without TC.

This is crap...... !!!!
Stoner would be fast on anything, TC or no TC. These guys would all handle bikes with no TC. 990's 500 2-strokes, whaever you like.
They all have the same Traction Control. The units used by all the bikes aare basically the same. Didn't do Loris any good in 2007 or Marco any good in 2008 on the same Ducati, with the same tyres.
I think the factory Yamaha and Honda's are still stronger than the Ducati on average, but I think Stoner is the difference. He and Rossi are a (big) step above everyone else in the game. Put Rossi on the same Duc, and then you can compare.

Back to cost cutting.....
Biggest expense in any formula is changes to rules.
Why not stick to the 800's.
Take away fuel limitations. Take away all electronic aids, limit testing, limit team sizes, and limit total number of bikes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Jan 5 2009, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is crap...... !!!!
Stoner would be fast on anything, TC or no TC. These guys would all handle bikes with no TC. 990's 500 2-strokes, whaever you like.
They all have the same Traction Control. The units used by all the bikes aare basically the same. Didn't do Loris any good in 2007 or Marco any good in 2008 on the same Ducati, with the same tyres.
I think the factory Yamaha and Honda's are still stronger than the Ducati on average, but I think Stoner is the difference. He and Rossi are a (big) step above everyone else in the game. Put Rossi on the same Duc, and then you can compare.

Back to cost cutting.....
Biggest expense in any formula is changes to rules.
Why not stick to the 800's.
Take away fuel limitations. Take away all electronic aids, limit testing, limit team sizes, and limit total number of bikes.
I agree on Stoner beeing fast on anything.Isn't that how important people in the business found out about him in the first place.Or any fast rider for that matter,almost anyway.I would guess Rossi/Burgess would be the first ones to get the hang of how to be fast without electronic aids,but Stoner/Ducati and the other tallanted guys would catch up.When Capirossi was on the Ducati he couldn't adapt,Melandri was even worse.Stoner needed one preseason.And it looks like Hayden and Kallio is adapting quickly too.

One restriction that i guess could be monitored with everyone keeping their TC is the track positionawareness,and ride by wire.Like Michael said.And reduced testing perhaps.