F1 is kicking the crap out of Moto GP

cliche guevara · Aug 29, 2011

akeizm said:
I find Motogp to be more entertaining then F1. I stopped watching F1 early this year because Vettel is so far in front it's boring. At least with Motogp, Stoner is really kicking arse but Lorenzo and Pedrosa are not letting him get away with it easily. Stoner could have 1 DNF and still be in the lead but he cannot take it easy and try to coast. Vettel could retire from a few races and still be in the lead.

vettel is just far away in the point standings, in terms of race pace i don't think he's got a better car than say hamilton or button...its just that he has a near perfect season.if hamster wouldn't do a simoncelli every other race the championship would be much closer...but since I'm a vettel fan and close racing in the grand prixs, not the championship, and vettel as WDC are all that matters to me i guess i'm lucky

basspete · Aug 29, 2011

Burky said:
2 races, 1 superb, full of thrills, 1 like watching paint dry and waiting for it to peel!

What the hell is Moto GP going to do to make me want to watch it still, this year, last year, will the boredom ever end! Thank God (Praise the Lord Jumkie) for Moto 2!

Good to hae you back Burky! Have to agree, watching the pitiful amount of bikes on the grid is disheartening for starters, Where is the spectacle in seeing, what 17 bikes on track when the first 15 get points? Take into account the inevitable DNFs and it's points all round. Nobody is seriously taking the fight to Casey at the moment at the front either. With Moto2 or 125s, you ken you are gonna see a race, so it's a lot more entertaining. And with F1 getting interesting again, it's not a good time for Motogp.

Please note, my only mention of Stoner was a compliment before all the "you just think it's boring because Rossi's no winning" greetin match starts. I'm a race fan, I like close, competitive racing. Thats why the formulas with more riders and closer racing get my vote.

Pete

Mental Anarchist · Aug 29, 2011

RussF1 said:
Isn't this just what we saw yesterday at Indy - a single tyre supplier and tyres that were not up to lasting the whole race distance - and look what it produced, robbed us of a good spectacle as a lot of the field faded backwards fast & even retiring. The race was building up pretty nicely I thought with Hayden mixing it up in the top 4 or 5, Simo v Jorge, Dovi & Spies coming through. Once the tyres went off, it all faded away.

I find it ironic that people are holding F1 up as the benchmark, while a lot of posts on this forum are bagging the bridgestone control tyre, and the fuel limits, etc. While in F1, it's ALL about the control tyre and artifical constraints imposed by the regulations to stimulate the 'show' at the expense of any form guide. Sure the last season and a bit have introduced unpredictability in F1, but a bit too much for my liking. F1 is meant to be the pinnacle of motorsport from a technology perspective, and while it needs to balance that with retaining the audience's interest, it does not need to cater for the lowest common denominator. F1 fans tend to be well versed on the technology and history of the formula, and appreciate that side of it. If you want to see loads of overtaking and re-overtaking just for the sake of it, go watch a one-make series or nascar or something.

Motogp to me has always been the pinnacle of 2 wheeled racing, with a blend of the best technology and big budget factory teams, and historically lots of man on man overtaking and close racing. Sure there have been some races in the last season or so where the results have been stretched out, but we've still had good racing on tracks that are conducive to lots of overtaking. Bear in mind we've only really had 3 manufacturers capable of competing for a win over the past few years, and then this year we've even lost 1 of those with ducati losing their way. So more predictability is to be expected.

Hopefully the 1000cc reg change generates more interest amongst the manufacturers, cause i really think we need a strong ducati and suzuki at least to go with honda and yamaha. We really do need at least 4 strong factories in motogp to bolster the grid sizes and competitiveness, and it would be great to woo Kawasaki back as well.

Anyway, just my 2 cents worth!

Nice post Russ.

In the 990 era the bikes could over power the tyre which meant if you went early then you performed like a school boy i.e blew your load before the distance was run. But there was a chance that if you could get a big enough lead then maybe just maybe you could hang on and win. The other strategy was to go easy in the first half (spend a bit more time on the foreplay if you like) and then claw back the school boys in the back half of the race.

The difference to Indy was that in the 990 era if you went too hard then you lost grip and were not able to get the drive and therefore you were slower but you could still finish. At Indy the track just destroyed the tyres to the point they were unrideable. No one wants to see that. What I would like to see from the control tyre is that the bikes performance is greater than the tyre. This would allow for different strategies to be employed and would favour the riders with supreme throttle control. It would also foster more overtaking as strategies converged.

Mick D · Aug 29, 2011

Talented grid yes, one of the deepest ever? Nah! But to clarify, there are so many criteria to judge depth and I'm an old fart who still likes 500s... and 350s...

mylexicon · Aug 29, 2011

Mick D said:
Talented grid yes, one of the deepest ever? Nah! But to clarify, there are so many criteria to judge depth and I'm an old fart who still likes 500s... and 350s...

The current grid features more world champions and more race winners than almost any other grid in history. The current grid also has more saddle time than any subsequent generation. The pedigree of the today's riders should be particularly clear after the disparity from 1994-2005.

It appears your age has only graced you with sentimentality, but not perspective.

Tom · Sep 1, 2011

There is a lot that Motogp needs to learn from F1 as soon as possible. That isn't to say motogp doesn't have some advantages of it's own, or that it should necessarily aspire to everything F1 is (there are problems), but the last 4 seasons of F1 have been superb and getting better.

stiefel · Sep 1, 2011

Tom said:
There is a lot that Motogp needs to learn from F1 as soon as possible. That isn't to say motogp doesn't have some advantages of it's own, or that it should necessarily aspire to everything F1 is (there are problems), but the last 4 seasons of F1 have been superb and getting better.

The last few seasons have had an attractive element of unpredictability to them. But you don't want to think about Motogp with something like DRS actiovation zones, or time-limited KERS. Or tires that are intentionally build to go off (think of all the flack Bridgestone is copping over Indy).

Tom · Sep 1, 2011

stiefel said:
The last few seasons have had an attractive element of unpredictability to them. But you don't want to think about Motogp with something like DRS actiovation zones, or time-limited KERS. Or tires that are intentionally build to go off (think of all the flack Bridgestone is copping over Indy).

DRS and KERS are both technologies which have been introduced to try and allow faster cars to overtake by giving the driver something to overcome the negative impact of the aerodynamic dependability of their cars. Bike racing does not have this problem and the following rider actually has an advantage, so those two technologies are not required. The tyre situation in F1 at the moment is excellent and motogp should definitely take note. F1 was far inferior when Bridgestone were making the tyres and motogp is suffering from the same problem but worse. Tyre life should be an issue and drivers/riders should be rewarded for their ability to make tyres last and cope with less than ideal levels of grip. At the moment riders are punished from tyres that are too hard to work at all outside of their window (dangerous) and when they do work they maintain their performance level for an entire race easily (boring).

stiefel · Sep 1, 2011

Tom said:
DRS and KERS are both technologies which have been introduced to try and allow faster cars to overtake by giving the driver something to overcome the negative impact of the aerodynamic dependability of their cars. Bike racing does not have this problem and the following rider actually has an advantage, so those two technologies are not required.

No, but Motogp does have plenty of complaining fans that want more overtaking. Replace the complaints about the 'dirty air' in F1 with the complaints about TC, fuel limit or capacity limit in Motogp and you pretty much end up in the same situation. You don't think Ezpeleta would be just about crazy enough to try something like this too?

Tom said:
The tyre situation in F1 at the moment is excellent and motogp should definitely take note. F1 was far inferior when Bridgestone were making the tyres and motogp is suffering from the same problem but worse. Tyre life should be an issue and drivers/riders should be rewarded for their ability to make tyres last and cope with less than ideal levels of grip. At the moment riders are punished from tyres that are too hard to work at all outside of their window (dangerous) and when they do work they maintain their performance level for an entire race easily (boring).

The current F1 tire was purposely designed to sharply drop off in performance. When your tires have gone off in F1, you come into the pits and get new ones. If you do it right, you get the maximum performance over minimum amount of pit stops. Otherwise you may find yourself loosing time because you have to make extra pit stops and/or because you have to run laps on degraded tires.

In motogp, riders do not have the luxury of pit stops (and I would like to keep it that way). It would be unacceptable for the same approach to be applied here. Moreover, making a durable, fast compound is the last incentive Bridgestone have to be involved at all from a development standpoint. Why would we want to force them to make a supoptimal product?

Granted, at the moment the balance between longevity and performance (especially in the early laps) has tipped too far towards the former, but that is something that Bridgestone are already working on.

Tom · Sep 1, 2011

stiefel said:
The current F1 tire was purposely designed to sharply drop off in performance. When your tires have gone off in F1, you come into the pits and get new ones. If you do it right, you get the maximum performance over minimum amount of pit stops. Otherwise you may find yourself loosing time because you have to make extra pit stops and/or because you have to run laps on degraded tires.

In motogp, riders do not have the luxury of pit stops (and I would like to keep it that way). It would be unacceptable for the same approach to be applied here. Moreover, making a durable, fast compound is the last incentive Bridgestone have to be involved at all from a development standpoint. Why would we want to force them to make a supoptimal product?

Granted, at the moment the balance between longevity and performance (especially in the early laps) has tipped too far towards the former, but that is something that Bridgestone are already working on.

Apply that same concept to motogp, without pitstops so that the tyre is designed to heat up easily, work at its peak for a reduced time introduce an extra dimension to the racing and the show would be significantly improved. Something closer to what world superbike has perhaps. KERS and DRS have made very little difference to the amount of passing in F1, especially compared to the significance of the tyre change.

stiefel · Sep 1, 2011

Tom said:
Apply that same concept to motogp, without pitstops so that the tyre is designed to heat up easily, work at its peak for a reduced time introduce an extra dimension to the racing and the show would be significantly improved. Something closer to what world superbike has perhaps. KERS and DRS have made very little difference to the amount of passing in F1, especially compared to the significance of the tyre change.

Then you'd still be asking Bridgestone to purposely supply a suboptimal product (because you want to mandate tire degradation). Tire technology has moved on, why would we want to keep living in the past? (given that Bridgestone will work out how to make the tires both durable and save in the early laps, which I fully expect they will manage to do).

From what I've seen, KERS and especially DRS have had a huge influence on overtaking in F1. If they wanted to overcome the dirty air problem, they should have regulated aero more strictly.

Tom · Sep 1, 2011

stiefel said:
Then you'd still be asking Bridgestone to purposely supply a suboptimal product (because you want to mandate tire degradation). Tire technology has moved on, why would we want to keep living in the past? (given that Bridgestone will work out how to make the tires both durable and save in the early laps, which I fully expect they will manage to do).

From what I've seen, KERS and especially DRS have had a huge influence on overtaking in F1. If they wanted to overcome the dirty air problem, they should have regulated aero more strictly.

Well their impact has been relatively small if you look into it. Anyway, it isn't about being suboptimal on purpose as such but it is more about not overbuilding the tyres to quite such an unnesessary extent. A Tyre war would be ideal, but this has been forbidden

povol · Sep 1, 2011

I personally think F1 just got lucky. After years of throwing .... against the wall, hoping something would make the sport less boring, 2-3 of those pieces of .... [regs] melded together in a spot of luck to create slightly less boring races.. Its funny that rules, which were designed to create close racing ended up with the largest championship rout in recent memory. I would love to see the tire competition in GP again, it created debate and sometimes controversy. Bring it back with no SNS's and let them compete.

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F1 is kicking the crap out of Moto GP

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