F1 is kicking the crap out of Moto GP

Haha! Wecome back Burky! Yeah, GP is looking like the Rose Parade at the front. Most races decided at warm up. My boy Nicky wanted to make it more interesting and raced to the rear, providing the opportunity for several overtakings. He even paid a visit to the pit, so they wouldnt feel left out. Oh, and before the ....... start coming out of woodwork, Burks taking about the 'racing' aspect of, well, the 'racing.' So i'll preemtively reply to BM & co, Stoner was amazingly fast today. But the racing in general hasnt been all that great. Mayb thats what Nstone was thinking when they sent out riders on cottage cheese tires today.

Jumkie said:

Haha! Wecome back Burky! Yeah, GP is looking like the Rose Parade at the front. Most races decided at warm up. My boy Nicky wanted to make it more interesting and raced to the rear, providing the opportunity for several overtakings. He even paid a visit to the pit, so they wouldnt feel left out. Oh, and before the ....... start coming out of woodwork, Burks taking about the 'racing' aspect of, well, the 'racing.' So i'll preemtively reply to BM & co, Stoner was amazingly fast today. But the racing in general hasnt been all that great. Mayb thats what Nstone was thinking when they sent out riders on cottage cheese tires today.

Click to expand...

Don't hate the player, hate the game. I don't think stoner is beatable just at this point in time with jorge and dani banged up and he and his crew having worked out how to set-up the bike in all conditions and him able to ride even the soft tyres. As you say, it is determined on the warm-up lap, if he knows his tyres and fuel will go race distance.



I agree with most of what lex said on the other thread. The only thing the manufacturers can sell to their parent firms as a line of development for funding purposes is fuel economy, which is also a de facto limit on power as lex has long argued, which means this is a one-line formula as will be the new formula.



The first thing I would do is change to pirelli as the tyre supplier with strict instructions that the tyres are not to last for the whole race. Surely even the most die-hard stoner fan has had sufficient schadenfreude from rossi's plight, get him on a one man fiat honda team or even a suzuki, I am sure he and jb could do something with that.



The other problem with the current formula is that the technology is now such that like a modern stealth bomber or stealth fighter one factory bike replaces a whole squadron, of necessity given the expense of the things.

Take the aliens out and motogp would not be boring. Blame Dorna the explorer they have destroyed motogp and continue to do so. There answer is 1000cc and CRT bikes which will do bugger all for the spectacle. . .

I was watching Istanbul 06 yesterday and the racing back then was amazing! The bikes were all over the place and I had no idea who was going to win right up to the last lap. It would be nice to go back to that.



On a side note: I couldn't help thinking Jum is right. Hayden looked awesome, was right up at the front backing the bike in everywhere and having a great season!! After that I watched Catalunya 07 and he was in 13th or some crap looking terrible with the #1 on his bike. This is the same guy?!?! Something looked fishy....



And funny enough Rossi was midpack in the 06 race. As I understand it the M1 was a pos that year for a while. It's amazing what the mousetrap will do....



Edit: Imagine how many WC's Stoner would have if he had Pedro's bike from 07 on....

Got to admit I was skeptical of the DRS, KERS, etc. acronym overload, as well as the forced tire compound swaps. But wouldn't you know - after throwing enough artificial gimmicks at the wall (to see what will stick), Eff Wun has at last been transformed into an entertaining 'spectacle.'



Today's Spa race seemed to run a few minutes too long, but for the most part it was actually fun to watch. The commentators kept up on who had yet to run what tires, etc., and despite the large variance in lap times as the tires aged, etc., it was entirely possible know how well a given driver was doing. Most importantly, the periodic speed mismatches caused by tired tires encourages some pretty darned good racing.

Stoner.....poetry in motion.....has there been a faster rider in history? Surely he must be the FOAT



Dani - solid result considering his qualifying.



Ben was awesome - ride of the day for me.....he needs to get those starts sorted out though to be a contender and hopefully the 1000cc with the extra torque might help shift his larger frame off the line and he can stay in touch to fight with the likes of Casey/Jorge from the beginning and make a race of it.



JLo had an average race by his standards....he never really seemed to gel with this circuit and is probably suffering from the relentless pressure being applied to him by CS particularly over the last few races. He has an uphill battle to retain his title now and has been comprehensively beaten by Stoner most of the season....only bad luck or a superhuman effort from JLo will deny Stoner the title this year....he is on another level.



Hayden looked to be doing a great job on the GP11.1.46 until his tires turned to ....!!!!! He was definitely looking way more comfortable than Rossi who looks like a fish out of water on that bike......maybe Jumkie is right after all and Nicky is the superior talent - sorry for ever doubting you Jumks

Geonerd said:

Got to admit I was skeptical of the DRS, KERS, etc. acronym overload, as well as the forced tire compound swaps. But wouldn't you know - after throwing enough artificial gimmicks at the wall (to see what will stick), Eff Wun has at last been transformed into an entertaining 'spectacle.'



Today's Spa race seemed to run a few minutes too long, but for the most part it was actually fun to watch. The commentators kept up on who had yet to run what tires, etc., and despite the large variance in lap times as the tires aged, etc., it was entirely possible know how well a given driver was doing. Most importantly, the periodic speed mismatches caused by tired tires encourages some pretty darned good racing.

Click to expand...

F1 has in general been delivering far more entertaining races than MGP over the past season and a half.....they have finally got the regs and rules tweaked to produce a spectacle for the fans and it is generating good, entertaining races.



BTW - how good is Spa as a track - I cant believe they used to race bikes there with all that armco......INSANITY!

Even though my boy won the race, it was a snorefest no doubt. Sachsenring & Laguna were good races, so tracks do have an important bearing on how exciting the racing is. Having said that, Motogp has more problems than just tracks. Motogp should take a real close look at what happens in BSB next year. They are apparently using a standard ECU with traction control banned. Anyone know more about those new regs?

I couldn't say F1 is kicking the crap out of motogp - last season did improve finally after 4lame years, tyres/kers have improved the show in general but the whole thing has lost its "aura" due to modern technology and no personalities at all in the driver line up imo - this year Vettel is so far in front he could sit out 2-3races and still win the championship - so if VR didn't tbone -r in Jerez CS would be another 25points in front and then could sit out Motegi without a worry if he could...

With the previous 2 posters I'm happy Stoner is giving us a show to admire - pity there isn't more opposition but I'll enjoy every moment of this !

It is difficult to admit that F1 has the measure of MotoGP, but it's true. Despite decades of pressure from the GPMA/FOTA, the FIA have refused to relinquish control of the rulebook. The FIA and FOM also protected themselves from the manufacturers by supporting small private teams and contracting with third-party engine suppliers like Cosworth. Though Max Mosley was ultimately unsuccessful in his bid to impose a budget cap and loosen the technical restrictions, he outlined a bold plan for prototype racing that would have kept the sport relevant and dynamic in the 21st century. His lunacy forced F1 to act. Unfortunately, the new technical regulations in F1 are laughable, BUT, as Geonerd says, F1 media is much better than in years gone by.



Where F1 has succeeded, MotoGP has failed spectacularly. The MSMA run the sport. Corporate executives and shareholders don't understand how racing impacts the consumer base so they are eager to shape racing into something they are more familiar with--R&D intangible assets. R&D is not interesting nor is it accessible, hence, no one puts it on sports networks. The MSMA don't really care about sport b/c racing revenues don't cover the cost of participation. Revenues never will cover the cost of participation as long as the MSMA are in charge b/c they don't understand sport ergo they have no plan for raising revenues (thanks, Livio Suppo, for that nugget of info).



The only saving grace in MotoGP right now is Casey Stoner. He is dismantling one of the deepest MotoGP fields in the history of the sport by riding on the edge of what is humanly possible. It is boring, but at least his riding is worthwhile to behold from a historical context.



Without an in depth rehash of years of posts, I point to the testing times at Brno. Though I cannot be 100% certain, I think those times are the result of bikes running in qualifying trim (no fuel regs) without any complications due to the 6 engine rule. You'll notice that Stoner, Lorenzo, and Spies were all very close. Times from Rossi and Hayden probably would have made things even more juicy. Long story short, the sport is more compelling with a 260hp cap. Perhaps horsepower limits aren't the prototype blue-skies we all dream about, but it allows the organizers to increase fuel capacity and reduce costs without jeopardizing safety. Sensible performance controls encourage new manufacturers to compete as well.



There is an opportunity to change the fuel regs without ditching the MSMA, imo. Some of you may have read the article about Honda demanding that HRC cut its budget by 30% to account for revenue shortfall caused by stooges in the production automobile department who don't do contingency for natural disasters. The FIM and Dorna must turn the MSMA against corporate headquarters.

mylexicon said:

...one of the deepest MotoGP fields in the history of the sport...

Click to expand...

Really, I mean reeaallllyyy.

Frizzle said:

Even though my boy won the race, it was a snorefest no doubt. Sachsenring & Laguna were good races, so tracks do have an important bearing on how exciting the racing is. Having said that, Motogp has more problems than just tracks. Motogp should take a real close look at what happens in BSB next year. They are apparently using a standard ECU with traction control banned. Anyone know more about those new regs?

Click to expand...

yes Motogp is getting its ... kicked by F1 And other motorcycle series as a spectacle

and not just a bit its getting well and truly butt fooked



BSB Info n pdf's



http://www.powerslid...ndpost&p=292110

Pigeon said:

yes Motogp is getting its ... kicked by F1 And other motorcycle series as a spectacle

and not just a bit its getting well and truly butt fooked



BSB Info n pdf's



http://www.powerslid...ndpost&p=292110

Click to expand...

Ahhhh nice, thanks Pigeon

Burky said:

2 races, 1 superb, full of thrills, 1 like watching paint dry and waiting for it to peel!



What the hell is Moto GP going to do to make me want to watch it still, this year, last year, will the boredom ever end! Thank God (Praise the Lord Jumkie) for Moto 2!

Click to expand...

It must be a case of "horses for courses", I watch one F1 GP and get bored with it for another 5 rounds. And Moto2 ......... boring



But I am loving MGP this year.

I find Motogp to be more entertaining then F1. I stopped watching F1 early this year because Vettel is so far in front it's boring. At least with Motogp, Stoner is really kicking arse but Lorenzo and Pedrosa are not letting him get away with it easily. Stoner could have 1 DNF and still be in the lead but he cannot take it easy and try to coast. Vettel could retire from a few races and still be in the lead.

Mick D said:

Really, I mean reeaallllyyy.

Click to expand...

You may well (and I am sure would) argue about the bikes at present, and one in particular, not allowing the riders to display their talent, but it is hard to argue that the current field is not a deep one. Leaving the smaller class championship winners aside, there are three past premier class world champions racing, and one current premier class world champion who also ran the then fully fit 7 times premier class champion fairly close for his 7th championship in his first year on equal equipment and second year in the class, a former wsbk world champion (in his rookie year and with no need for set-up assistance from v. rossi esq unlike his successors) who looks as likely a future premier class world champion as most, and dani pedrosa widely considered by many including me to have sufficient talent for a championship in many eras if not the required physiology.



I only go back to the 80s, and I am also not sure lawson, spencer and gardner completely coincided at their peaks, nor doohan, rainey and schwantz. If you wish to argue that doohan, lawson and rainey in particular were better than rossi it would surprise me, but I might not necessarily totally disagree .

michaelm said:

Don't hate the player, hate the game. I don't think stoner is beatable just at this point in time with jorge and dani banged up and he and his crew having worked out how to set-up the bike in all conditions and him able to ride even the soft tyres. As you say, it is determined on the warm-up lap, if he knows his tyres and fuel will go race distance.



I agree with most of what lex said on the other thread. The only thing the manufacturers can sell to their parent firms as a line of development for funding purposes is fuel economy, which is also a de facto limit on power as lex has long argued, which means this is a one-line formula as will be the new formula.



The first thing I would do is change to pirelli as the tyre supplier with strict instructions that the tyres are not to last for the whole race. Surely even the most die-hard stoner fan has had sufficient schadenfreude from rossi's plight, get him on a one man fiat honda team or even a suzuki, i am sure he and jb could do something with that.



The other problem with the current formula is that the technology is now such that like a modern stealth bomber or stealth fighter one factory bike replaces a whole squadron, of necessity given the expense of the things.

Click to expand...

Isn't this just what we saw yesterday at Indy - a single tyre supplier and tyres that were not up to lasting the whole race distance - and look what it produced, robbed us of a good spectacle as a lot of the field faded backwards fast & even retiring. The race was building up pretty nicely I thought with Hayden mixing it up in the top 4 or 5, Simo v Jorge, Dovi & Spies coming through. Once the tyres went off, it all faded away.



I find it ironic that people are holding F1 up as the benchmark, while a lot of posts on this forum are bagging the bridgestone control tyre, and the fuel limits, etc. While in F1, it's ALL about the control tyre and artifical constraints imposed by the regulations to stimulate the 'show' at the expense of any form guide. Sure the last season and a bit have introduced unpredictability in F1, but a bit too much for my liking. F1 is meant to be the pinnacle of motorsport from a technology perspective, and while it needs to balance that with retaining the audience's interest, it does not need to cater for the lowest common denominator. F1 fans tend to be well versed on the technology and history of the formula, and appreciate that side of it. If you want to see loads of overtaking and re-overtaking just for the sake of it, go watch a one-make series or nascar or something.



Motogp to me has always been the pinnacle of 2 wheeled racing, with a blend of the best technology and big budget factory teams, and historically lots of man on man overtaking and close racing. Sure there have been some races in the last season or so where the results have been stretched out, but we've still had good racing on tracks that are conducive to lots of overtaking. Bear in mind we've only really had 3 manufacturers capable of competing for a win over the past few years, and then this year we've even lost 1 of those with ducati losing their way. So more predictability is to be expected.



Hopefully the 1000cc reg change generates more interest amongst the manufacturers, cause i really think we need a strong ducati and suzuki at least to go with honda and yamaha. We really do need at least 4 strong factories in motogp to bolster the grid sizes and competitiveness, and it would be great to woo Kawasaki back as well.





Anyway, just my 2 cents worth!

michaelm said:

You may well (and I am sure would) argue about the bikes at present, and one in particular, not allowing the riders to display their talent, but it is hard to argue that the current field is not a deep one. Leaving the smaller class championship winners aside, there are three past premier class world champions racing, and one current premier class world champion who also ran the then fully fit 7 times premier class champion fairly close for his 7th championship in his first year on equal equipment and second year in the class, a former wsbk world champion (in his rookie year and with no need for set-up assistance from v. rossi esq unlike his successors) who looks as likely a future premier class world champion as most, and dani pedrosa widely considered by many including me to have sufficient talent for a championship in many eras if not the required physiology.



I only go back to the 80s, and I am also not sure lawson, spencer and gardner completely coincided at their peaks, nor doohan, rainey and schwantz. If you wish to argue that doohan, lawson and rainey in particular were better than rossi it would surpise me, but I might not necessarily totally disagree

.

Click to expand...

I agree michael - In fact only three of the riders on the current MGP grid dont have a world championship to their names....Randy, Hector and Karel so it must be classified as one of the most talent laden grids in history if you consider these facts alone.

RussF1 said:

Isn't this just what we saw yesterday at Indy - a single tyre supplier and tyres that were not up to lasting the whole race distance - and look what it produced, robbed us of a good spectacle as a lot of the field faded backwards fast & even retiring. The race was building up pretty nicely I thought with Hayden mixing it up in the top 4 or 5, Simo v Jorge, Dovi & Spies coming through. Once the tyres went off, it all faded away.



I find it ironic that people are holding F1 up as the benchmark, while a lot of posts on this forum are bagging the bridgestone control tyre, and the fuel limits, etc. While in F1, it's ALL about the control tyre and artifical constraints imposed by the regulations to stimulate the 'show' at the expense of any form guide. Sure the last season and a bit have introduced unpredictability in F1, but a bit too much for my liking. F1 is meant to be the pinnacle of motorsport from a technology perspective, and while it needs to balance that with retaining the audience's interest, it does not need to cater for the lowest common denominator. F1 fans tend to be well versed on the technology and history of the formula, and appreciate that side of it. If you want to see loads of overtaking and re-overtaking just for the sake of it, go watch a one-make series or nascar or something.



Motogp to me has always been the pinnacle of 2 wheeled racing, with a blend of the best technology and big budget factory teams, and historically lots of man on man overtaking and close racing. Sure there have been some races in the last season or so where the results have been stretched out, but we've still had good racing on tracks that are conducive to lots of overtaking. Bear in mind we've only really had 3 manufacturers capable of competing for a win over the past few years, and then this year we've even lost 1 of those with ducati losing their way. So more predictability is to be expected.



Hopefully the 1000cc reg change generates more interest amongst the manufacturers, cause i really think we need a strong ducati and suzuki at least to go with honda and yamaha. We really do need at least 4 strong factories in motogp to bolster the grid sizes and competitiveness, and it would be great to woo Kawasaki back as well.





Anyway, just my 2 cents worth!

Click to expand...

I don't think bikes being unrideable at the end of races as at Indy is a good idea, but I think that may have been down to the track more than anything else. If you are going to have a control tyre the way the bridgestone has been for most of the year ie treacherous early but strong late is not the way to go for good racing imo, and perhaps I am now in my dotage but the skills of preserving tyres early and riding well on worn tyres late as practised by valentino rossi and mick doohan to name two added to the spectacle and added to the requirements of riders. If you wish to argue against the control tyre per se you will get no disagreement from me, I was always opposed, and far from saving money it has generated more costs (other than for bridgestone, I guess), with it now being necessary to design the bike to suit the tyres and one marque's uncompetitiveness perhaps being largely a consequence of this. Perhaps bridgestone are working towards a happy medium between the start of season tyres and the Indy tyres, if the tyres were the problem at Indy.



I am no great fan of F1 these days, and agree the increased passing this year is somewhat contrived with the tyre discrepancies and assist zones. The final common pathway seems to be that vettel wins anyway and hamilton quite frequently crashes.