Good point and I'm guessing that the tires tested on monday weren't asymmetrical like the ones used over the weekend. Now I want to go see when asymmetrical tires were first used.
Estoril testing
- Thread starter hawkdriver
- Start date
Good point and I'm guessing that the tires tested on monday weren't asymmetrical like the ones used over the weekend. Now I want to go see when asymmetrical tires were first used.
Kropotkin/motomatters says ducati in the post-race test had a new carbon-fibre sub-frame added to the chassis (or non-chassis as the case may be) which they consider a good step if not necessarily a complete solution.
In terms of our previous discussions/arguments I am not sure whether this constitutes a chassis re-design
.
In terms of our previous discussions/arguments I am not sure whether this constitutes a chassis re-design
Joined Apr 2011
1K Posts | 87+
Pangea
I already gave my take on Stoners antics....I think it was BS designed to get up Rossis nose....nothing more - he does whine too much at times but so do you
I think Stoner rode pretty well considering he isnt great at these sort of tracks and 3rd is a decent enough result and keeps him in contention.
I think Dani was an absolute superstar for coming straight back after shoulder surgery 3 weeks ago....makes Rossi's shoulder complaints seem pretty weak IMO. I know they are different injuries but full credit to Pedro for his gutsy effort - he has not made an issue of it at all and is gaining a lot of respect from everyone for his conduct. I think ALL these guys are great.
Cal Crutchlow is proving to be equally as courageous and most certainly deserves his place in the premiere series on his efforts so far. Hope the Brits can give him all the support he deserves.
I am in Thailand on holiday at the mo so I may only get sporadic internet access so excuse my late reply.
Joined Apr 2011
1K Posts | 87+
Pangea
Nah Nah Squiggie,
you are being more than a little myopic - yes in most recent posts I have not been complimentary of Stoner. However, if you can get over your short term attention span - you would see that I have described him as an "indisputably good rider", praised his style at Aragon and PI to recall just some of my "nicer" comments about him. Oh and I do believe that I have also tipped him for 2011 WC #1
You seem to be quite intelligent but appear to have a distinct anti-Stoner bias.
You do often have regular swipes at him whilst ignoring others indiscretions...that is why I singled you out for mention. Each to their own but I do get bored with people repeating the same stuff ad infinitum. No dramas.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Kropotkin/motomatters says ducati in the post-race test had a new carbon-fibre sub-frame added to the chassis (or non-chassis as the case may be) which they consider a good step if not necessarily a complete solution.
In terms of our previous discussions/arguments I am not sure whether this constitutes a chassis re-design.
The subframe is not an 'added' part -- it is just the same subframe that was already there, the CF trapezoid connecting the cylinder heads to the steering head -- but with revised stiffness. It's more flexible and it seems that now, when they do front end settings, the bike gives 'normal' responses (it seems it was rather unresponsive so far). They had this revised subframe ready since Sepang, but it was useless to test it unless Rossi was up to decent speed.
I do not think it really gave them faster lap times out of the box, the improvements for Ducati were more or less the same as for all other teams so they must have come from the new Bridgestone tires -- with the exception of Crutchlow, who also found a wheelbase setting that really suits him and made a really dramatic improvement. I think however that in the upcoming races the ability to set up the front properly will allow them to gradually improve the lap times, as they find the time to experiment with the settings the new part allows.
The exact words which I obviously misinterpreted were "the new chassis - actually a small , trapezoidal carbon-fiber subframe connecting the engine to the steering head", so probably qualifies more as sorting rather than significant re-design.
As I said elsewhere I think they are using rossi and jb to set themselves up for the future as you said they were going to do, including making their manufacturing process less artisanal/more professional.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Yup. Stoner demonstrated the potential of Ducati. But they realized (not soon enough) that having Stoner on their bike was like having won a lottery -- something very difficult to replicate. Now with Rossi and JB they are trying to make a leap and lay the foundations to become a true force in GP. They want to build a bike, a structure and a methodology that will take them through the next decade of GP racing, possibly at the top or very near it.
Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
i tend to agree but then again i ask myself whether a team of jb and stoner could do the same for them if stoner could draw the same kind of sponsorship money
Joined Mar 2005
7K Posts | 20+
Woody Creek
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
The essential first step to developing the ducati is obviously to be able to modify it with predictable outcomes, which they now seem to have achieved.
I am not sure that presiozi can as yet say his current design concept ie the carbon fibre or the integrated engine approach, or the longer term L4 engine for that matter, is correct until they actually do develop it to be faster though. At least they now have the tools to do it, and few have ever doubted that if it is fixable rossi and jb will fix it. Still makes jb's fix in 80 seconds comment, exaggerated and somewhat taken out of context though it was, optimistic; I think I actually said that expertise in tweaking aluminium space frame chassis would not be immediately transferable.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
If it's really enough to tweak the flexibility of the carbon fiber mini-frame to make the Ducati predictable in the way it reacts to front-end setup changes, and capable to give feedback to the rider in a way that is similar to aluminum full frames, then JB and Rossi should be able to make swift progress, in a visible way in terms of lap times. Maybe not 80 seconds, but 80 hours of testing with a fit Rossi should suffice. So if that does not happen within the next 3-4 race weekends, then a major redesign can hardly be avoided and the rest of the season will be used as a test bed for a radically different 2012 bike. I think Preziosi is a pragmatic man, not a fundamentalist. He is just proceeding methodically and taking one step at a time, there are so many variables at play. Jumping into a major redesign without knowing what actually was wrong with the present bike would have been foolish (and anyway it is only now that Rossi's data begin to be useful, as he is now running at a decent pace).
Jb's 80 second comment was pitched at fixing a particular braking issue that the lesser satellite Ducati riders were suffering-this is what has been taken well out of context.
Do you really believe that JB-with all his success and experience would state that he could fix the Ducati in 80 seconds?
I did say it was taken out of context and exaggerated. I don't think he quite anticipated the difficulties that they did face though. I claim very little technological knowledge, but I did think it would take them a while to work out how to tweak a carbon fibre chassis; perhaps ducati themselves should have ensured tweakability was available before they went the carbon fibre route, but a major change like this is now problematic with the limited testing available with the real riders.
They have 7 tests left.
Yes, but they didn't have many tests to decide mid-season in 2008 to decide to go the carbon fibre route. My current conjecture is that they built something in aluminium, replicated the characteristics in carbon fibre, saw the chassis perform similarly and said let's go carbon fibre because of supposed theoretical advantages. I don't think there was actually too much wrong with the original 2009 carbon fibre chassis bike with the screamer engine; stoner actually said this and his form when healthy late in the 2009 season would seem to provide supportive evidence. Whatever changes they made for the 2010 bike, obviously the big bang engine but whatever else, seemed to have unpredictable effects on the handling and stability of the bike.
Whilst still annoyed with valentino for taking stoner out at jerez I give him and jb considerable kudos for working out how to tweak carbon fibre if they have done so. I still suspect that KISS applies and having an infinitely adjustable chassis is not necessarily an advantage, particularly given that race week-end new carbon-fibre chassis baking does not as yet appear feasible. Perhaps they are looking at having saturday night special chassis in future like the sns michelin tyres
Yes, but they didn't have many tests to decide mid-season in 2008 to decide to go the carbon fibre route. My current conjecture is that they built something in aluminium, replicated the characteristics in carbon fibre, saw the chassis perform similarly and said let's go carbon fibre because of supposed theoretical advantages. I don't think there was actually too much wrong with the original 2009 carbon fibre chassis bike with the screamer engine; stoner actually said this and his form when healthy late in the 2009 season would seem to provide supportive evidence. Whatever changes they made for the 2010 bike, obviously the big bang engine but whatever else, seemed to have unpredictable effects on the handling and stability of the bike.
Whilst still annoyed with valentino for taking stoner out at jerez I give him and jb considerable kudos for working out how to tweak carbon fibre if they have done so. I still suspect that KISS applies and having an infinitely adjustable chassis is not necessarily an advantage, particularly given that race week-end new carbon-fibre chassis baking does not as yet appear feasible. Perhaps they are looking at having saturday night special chassis in future like the sns michelin tyres.
Can anyone fill me on why they went for the CF route? If they are so concerned about the CF frame mimicking Al frame, why did they even change from Al to CF? Or was it another attempt at showing the world they think different from the Japanese?
Cheers
Renjith
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Its in their DNA to be different than the other manufacturers. They march to a different drummer when it comes to motorcycle design, and their customers wouldnt have it any other way.It makes them feel exclusive, kind of like buying a Ferrari, over a Skyline.The Skyline will outperform a more expensive Ferrari, and give you better trouble free ownership, but 80% of the people given a choice would take the Ferrari for the prestige that goes along with ownership.
