**Estoril Race - SPOILER **

Sorry to join so late but it's been a very stressful time for me, mid terms, girls and then watching the race on Sunday topped it off for me. But now there has been some time to reflect and here's where I stand:

Team orders is not the issue here. Pedrosa claims he was not going for the pass and I believe him, I think he simply overshot the corner. As to why he didn't stand it up and run wide I'm not sure, obviously he felt that he could make it happen. Unfortunately he couldn't make it happen and unfortunately Hayden was in the path of destruction. Even if HRC did tell Pedrosa to take it easy around Hayden and aid him in any way possible, the situation could have happened. It's not as if Pedrosa would cruise around at a considerably slower pace just to make sure he didn't have a run in with Hayden. It's racing, it happens. The unfortunate thing is Hayden seemed to have a good pace and was feeling very comfortable. I felt like it was going to be the Valenitno and Nicky duel that we all had been waiting for.

The only positive is I've never seen Hayden as emotional as he was after he was taken out and during his post race press conference. I feel like this might be that turning point in his career where he is so filled with emotion that he finds that extra couple of tenths the way Gibernau was in 2003.

Hats of to Elias, I know I picked him to be the next Melandri and he has been rather lackluster for most of the season but this must give me some credit, right? Superb ride. Same for KRJR, although it's too bad he forgot how many laps he was on, he may have won the thing. Another solid ride from Rossi and great to see Edwards on form again.

Poor Gibbers. It's bad enough that Crashey took him down but it's just insult to injury that Crashey took his job too.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ooost @ Oct 17 2006, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Pedrosa claims he was not going for the pass and I believe him, I think he simply overshot the corner.

Ooost brother, don't get too stressed, mid terms and girls are unavoidable, hope things sort themselves out

We're on the same page on most things Ooost but I'm telling all you guys, don't believe Pedrosa this time, he is talking through his .... Aside from the 100+ laps he did over the weekend on the RCV, he's been to Estoril a few times before. Dani has ridden that turn countless times in his mind and knows exactly where to brake, where to turn in, where to get off the brakes, where exactly to get on the gas for that turn and for every other turn. The only time a rider is going to change his plan for a turn during a race, ( by changing plan I mean doing something different, braking later, getting off the brakes earlier, anything that will change speed or trajectory ) it is in an effort to make a pass or try to defend against another rider making a pass. During practice it's different, a guy might blow a turn on purpose to see how late he can brake for example but by the time Sunday comes these guys know exactly what they're doing. If Pedrosa wasn't going for the pass then what exactly was he doing? Was he taking a nap? Or maybe thinking about what colour to paint his lounge room at home? C'mon Dani. He made a decision, at some point in the approach to that corner to change his plan, to do something differently, to set up a possible pass, it certainly wasn't in an effort to defend his line from someone else. I can smell the ........ here. If he 'just lost it' going into the turn then he must have had his eyes shut on the way in, and I just don't buy that for a second. 'Simply overshot the corner' doesn't cut it with me. I have no doubt in my mind that he tried to pull a move on Hayden, that's a fact. As to why he thought it was a good idea at that particular point in the race will remain something that Dani will have to live with, Nicky may have to live with it for a very long time. Bad call Pedrosa.



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=41...sa+hayden&hl=en

Jesus, somebody tell me this isn't a guy setting up a pass

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skidmark @ Oct 17 2006, 08:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Jesus, somebody tell me this isn't a guy setting up a pass

Ooost, are you high?....Skid, i'm not Jesus, but i'm somebody...and yes that was with out a dought a pass attempt....Asimo's used that type of pass on Nick (and others) before, 250 style tight inside line, look back at some of the races, HE's guilty, and Nick should still whoop his ......

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skidmark @ Oct 17 2006, 06:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I never came accross a racer that didn't crash Doc. How the hell did you do it?


Ohh ...., sorry, I was trying to say I wasn't a "crasher".....but I went down plenty and it sucks.....

Pedrosa was trying to pass all right. Only he didn't do it well. There seems to be a genuine loss of control, but at the speed those guys feel and process their stuff, his explanation might even be pausible.

He might not have delivered a 100% honest explanation either. So what? In my book, racers are not supposed to be honest all the time. The problem is that Pedrosa's dishonesty is harder to swallow than Rossi's, for instance.

Nicky's declarations about guilt, suspension, forgiveness and redemption of sins by one-two in Valencia aren't very inspired either. Nor his not admitting he had been over the limit too one lap either.

NH and DP have rubbed their leathers and tyres a few times this season and during that race. Two kids, that's what they are. I would not make a such a drama about it.

Vespix, man if ever ther was a 'racing incident' worthy of the title 'drama', it's this one. I had a feeling there was going to be some sort of drama at the last two races, not quite as decisive though. There may well be more drama to come, I believe so. It's been that kind of year.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skidmark @ Oct 17 2006, 04:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Vespix, man if ever ther was a 'racing incident' worthy of the title 'drama', it's this one. I had a feeling there was going to be some sort of drama at the last two races, not quite as decisive though. There may well be more drama to come, I believe so. It's been that kind of year.
Very Vespix but I totally agree with Skiddy on this one, there's no way in the world Pedrosa could of over-take Hayden there without crashing into him or taking the grass route. On the clip it showed Hayden over-taking Pedrosa a little too harshly and bumping into him so Pedrosa might of lost his head and took Hayden out on purpose...that's definately what it looked like.

Skid, off-topic, and you'll pardon me this, but ask about their dramas to Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve with Schumi, or the late Senna about Prost.

No I'm in a good state of mind at the moment skid, and thanks for your well wishes. At this point I'm just giving Dani the benefit of the doubt because there is really no way to prove either way. Your point is very valid about him having the braking point nailed and the only time a rider changes it up is to defend or pass so you're most likely on to something. But it's all in the past now. Dani's learned something from this and I think Nicky will have more speed than we've ever seen from him. A new clutch served him well and he was immediately up front on a track he's historically been rubbish at. Let's see how he goes with the new clutch at a track he loves and filled with raw emotion. It's not over yet.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alex @ Oct 17 2006, 04:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Very Vespix but I totally agree with Skiddy on this one, there's no way in the world Pedrosa could of over-take Hayden there without crashing into him or taking the grass route. On the clip it showed Hayden over-taking Pedrosa a little too harshly and bumping into him so Pedrosa might of lost his head and took Hayden out on purpose...that's definately what it looked like.
I don't agree, fair enough it was a rash move but to suggest he did it deliberately is wrong. No professional racer would do that to their team-mate, besides, if he did why apologise afterwards?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dannozx10r @ Oct 17 2006, 05:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't agree, fair enough it was a rash move but to suggest he did it deliberately is wrong. No professional racer would do that to their team-mate, besides, if he did why apologise afterwards?
I see where you're coming from but Michael Schumacher has done it many times in the past. Now i'm not saying Pedrosa is doing it on purpose but it certainly looked like it to me; but then again you will see it differently as will other people.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vespix @ Oct 17 2006, 04:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Skid, off-topic, and you'll pardon me this, but ask about their dramas to Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve with Schumi, or the late Senna about Prost.See, I'm not up on F1 so I don't know enough about this stuff.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ooost @ Oct 17 2006, 05:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think Nicky will have more speed than we've ever seen from him. A new clutch served him well and he was immediately up front on a track he's historically been rubbish at. Let's see how he goes with the new clutch at a track he loves and filled with raw emotion. It's not over yet.I really hope your right Ooost, I haven't wanted to stop believing that Nicky could finally bloom into a consistent winner though I've had my doubts since Brno.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alex @ Oct 18 2006, 03:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I see where you're coming from but Michael Schumacher has done it many times in the past. Now i'm not saying Pedrosa is doing it on purpose but it certainly looked like it to me; but then again you will see it differently as will other people.

Motorcycle racing and car racing are very different, and Dani's the last rider on the grid that would get enraged and stupid enough to pull a move like that, there's no way he did it deliberately. As for Schumaker, well I can't be sure but I don't belive loses his head and does stupid things, either. His "cheating" moves are to the benefit of his championship or race hopes, no to satisfy his emotions.

I'm tired of all this hayden drama... the race was won by ELIAS....
by only 0.02 and the pic look like this...

607:attachment]




p.s. Too many topics concernig the HRC drama would be an idee to be merged so that everyone who want to kill padrosa, cry about hayden's fate or to express any othere feeling to know the exact place

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skidmark @ Oct 17 2006, 03:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ooost brother, don't get too stressed, mid terms and girls are unavoidable, hope things sort themselves out

We're on the same page on most things Ooost but I'm telling all you guys, don't believe Pedrosa this time, he is talking through his .... Aside from the 100+ laps he did over the weekend on the RCV, he's been to Estoril a few times before. Dani has ridden that turn countless times in his mind and knows exactly where to brake, where to turn in, where to get off the brakes, where exactly to get on the gas for that turn and for every other turn. The only time a rider is going to change his plan for a turn during a race, ( by changing plan I mean doing something different, braking later, getting off the brakes earlier, anything that will change speed or trajectory ) it is in an effort to make a pass or try to defend against another rider making a pass. During practice it's different, a guy might blow a turn on purpose to see how late he can brake for example but by the time Sunday comes these guys know exactly what they're doing. If Pedrosa wasn't going for the pass then what exactly was he doing? Was he taking a nap? Or maybe thinking about what colour to paint his lounge room at home? C'mon Dani. He made a decision, at some point in the approach to that corner to change his plan, to do something differently, to set up a possible pass, it certainly wasn't in an effort to defend his line from someone else. I can smell the ........ here. If he 'just lost it' going into the turn then he must have had his eyes shut on the way in, and I just don't buy that for a second. 'Simply overshot the corner' doesn't cut it with me. I have no doubt in my mind that he tried to pull a move on Hayden, that's a fact. As to why he thought it was a good idea at that particular point in the race will remain something that Dani will have to live with, Nicky may have to live with it for a very long time. Bad call Pedrosa.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=41...sa+hayden&hl=en

Jesus, somebody tell me this isn't a guy setting up a pass

I'm not convinced, not that I really care, but looking at the video it's clear that he start braking at the same point or earlier than the two imedeatly in front of him. I wonder if this could be a chain reaction from Edwards bad braking. not sure but it looks like he might have a minor front slide at the entrance and do some late braking into the turn. Hayden see this and act while pedrosa doesn't and with higher speed and about to lean over on the brakes suddenly have a difficult desission to make, stand up or go for it, and made the wrong one. That desition might very well be: "ok, the ....... the pushed me out on the last lap (my so called team mate) suddenly decide for a slow entry, then I better try to pass him before rossi go away" .... "opps, bad desition"

Only speculation based on the video.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Oct 16 2006, 09:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Back in the day....gixxer 600...local stuff, but sponsored.....didn't crash, but never had the "nasty balls" it takes to go really, really fast....I should scan some of my old photos.....

That's really cool Doc. Now about Nicky's clutch issues being ........: is it possible that, being the pinnacle of bike speed and technology, a Moto GP bike is more fragile than a production-based 600 race bike (how heavily modified was yours?)? I mean, a gixxer is originally designed to handle everyday riding and go many miles more than a race between repairs. So, is it possible that Nicky's RC211V is technolgically on the edge, with parts trimmed down and perfected to be as light and fast as possible and, therefore, more fragile? Also take into account that the clutch has to convert 220 or so hp into forward motion. Would Nicky be able to "slapshift that ....." on a 990cc GP bike and be fine, just like you were on your gsx-r?

Look at how poor his starts were before Estoril, isn't it possible that he really did have a problem?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Oct 18 2006, 02:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's really cool Doc. Now about Nicky's clutch issues being ........: is it possible that, being the pinnacle of bike speed and technology, a Moto GP bike is more fragile than a production-based 600 race bike (how heavily modified was yours?)? I mean, a gixxer is originally designed to handle everyday riding and go many miles more than a race between repairs. So, is it possible that Nicky's RC211V is technolgically on the edge, with parts trimmed down and perfected to be as light and fast as possible and, therefore, more fragile? Also take into account that the clutch has to convert 220 or so hp into forward motion. Would Nicky be able to "slapshift that ....." on a 990cc GP bike and be fine, just like you were on your gsx-r?

Look at how poor his starts were before Estoril, isn't it possible that he really did have a problem?

I hear you man...and you're right.... totally different animals....but the race bikes have to hold up to extremes....my bike was the equivalent of a superstock setup...hardend gears, aluminum sprockets...etc I think my main point was that if you're having "real" problems with a clutch....common sense says, you put in a good one, and away you go....if the problems existed on the start, it sure doesn't show through to the results end...he was very consistent....
I guess I feel like he's using the clutch as a scapegoat....but these bikes are built to take abuse...if these guys use the clutch on upshifts more than 25% of the time I'd be surprised.....they might feather it a bit off the corner on the throttle....but otherwise...I think you get my point.
the little trick is just to create a break in the torque and friction on the gear your in so that the you can pop the new gear in without snappin teeth....you can do it two ways.....either pull in the clutch, or momentarily back of the throttle.....that's why these guys burp the throttle so hard when they downshift so the gear will slide out.....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Oct 18 2006, 07:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now about Nicky's clutch issues being ........: is it possible that, being the pinnacle of bike speed and technology, a Moto GP bike is more fragile than a production-based 600 race bike (how heavily modified was yours?)? I mean, a gixxer is originally designed to handle everyday riding and go many miles more than a race between repairs. So, is it possible that Nicky's RC211V is technolgically on the edge, with parts trimmed down and perfected to be as light and fast as possible and, therefore, more fragile? Also take into account that the clutch has to convert 220 or so hp into forward motion. Would Nicky be able to "slapshift that ....." on a 990cc GP bike and be fine, just like you were on your gsx-r?

Look at how poor his starts were before Estoril, isn't it possible that he really did have a problem?


all valid points. did your gixxer require an engine re-build every 10,000km or whatever it is ? these bikes are running at their maximum at every race and it takes its toll - production bikes don't suffer anywhere near the kind of stresses that the gp bikes suffer. haydens clutch problems have been well documented and i think hayden can quite happily blame HRC for having lost a big wad of point as a result.

most of the shifts are clutch free because of 'quick shifters' but if you can't get the thing off the line in the first place

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Capirex @ Oct 18 2006, 12:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm tired of all this hayden drama... the race was won by ELIAS....
by only 0.02 and the pic look like this...

p.s. Too many topics concernig the HRC drama would be an idee to be merged so that everyone who want to kill padrosa, cry about hayden's fate or to express any othere feeling to know the exact place

I know what you mean capirex!!! I'm having a discussion at the NH forum about that pic of hayden pulling off pedro's head. I'm SO irritated now, they just don't seem to get the point and only want to make drama!! I trully hope all those haydenboppers on that site, saying the same thing over and over again (pedro needs to be fired/sued/head pulled off, it's so sad for hayden and bla bla bla) since last race will cool down a bit too!

I'm realy irritated, almost a bit angry. first time I'm angry because of some disagreement in a virtual discussion at the NH forum. a bit sad, isn't it I'm deleting myself from their memberslist to spare me the stress of getting angry (if I can find out how to do that )

the link to that NHtopic:
http://www.nickyhayden.com/forums/viewtopi...p?p=70926#70926

I'm wondering if these NH fans are fans of the motogp and the races, or just fans of NH

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Capirex @ Oct 18 2006, 11:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm tired of all this hayden drama... the race was won by ELIAS....
by only 0.02 and the pic look like this...

607:attachment]
p.s. Too many topics concernig the HRC drama would be an idee to be merged so that everyone who want to kill padrosa, cry about hayden's fate or to express any othere feeling to know the exact place

Awesome picture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I watched the race again yesterday, not many riders can say they took it too Rossi like Elias did..........bloody awesome display of riding, shame we've had to wait this long to see it - I hope it wasnt a one hit wonder