Electronics

Is it really sensible to ditch traction control?The arguments against it are to get riders connecting with their bikes but we haven`t really scratched the surface of how it`s keeping a lot of riders away from the Costa clinic.

Personally in the past I`ve been all for getting rid of it but as in F1 all measures to slow bikes down are countered by new engineering that gives the power back from elsewhere in the engine or better electronics being developed for the machine.

What worries me most is another incident like the late,great Kato thing occuring again and seeing riders knock themselves about so much that they become sidelined permanently which has robbed us of good talent in the past.

It is impossible to completely take traction control out of the equation. The teams will find a way to modulate control though the computer that controls the bikes injectors. AMA did it last year and that is why the AMA amended the rules to allow full traction control because they could not police the other "quasi" traction control. I do not think there is a way to fully take control out of the equation.

its a tricky question.
i dont like the fact that computers are doing the racing rather than the riders. i think keeping riders out of the costa clinic is good.
fact is ,there are a lot more people comparing motogp to the boring F1,and thats not good for the sport, i think a lot of this is attributed to the tc.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Eagle088 @ Sep 3 2007, 11:14 AM) [snapback]88576[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
It is impossible to completely take traction control out of the equation. The teams will find a way to modulate control though the computer that controls the bikes injectors. AMA did it last year and that is why the AMA amended the rules to allow full traction control because they could not police the other "quasi" traction control. I do not think there is a way to fully take control out of the equation.

The only semi-realistic ways to really police TC are going away from computer controls completely or running a control ECU. If you've got a computer controlling your throttle, you can implement TC using only the sensors already in place. It's a difficult thing to police without swinging either too far backwards or too far towards a spec series.

annoying isnt it.

traction control has an obvious downside in making the bikes much easier to ride and reducing the advantage of the skillful rider.

but it also has an upside in that as long as it doesnt go wrong it can potentially make the sport much safer.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DRILL666 @ Sep 3 2007, 05:04 PM) [snapback]88575[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Is it really sensible to ditch traction control?The arguments against it are to get riders connecting with their bikes but we haven`t really scratched the surface of how it`s keeping a lot of riders away from the Costa clinic.

Personally in the past I`ve been all for getting rid of it but as in F1 all measures to slow bikes down are countered by new engineering that gives the power back from elsewhere in the engine or better electronics being developed for the machine.

What worries me most is another incident like the late,great Kato thing occuring again and seeing riders knock themselves about so much that they become sidelined permanently which has robbed us of good talent in the past.


Agree with everything you've said mate, except for the bolded bit.

Kato's accident was a REALLY freak accident, it had nothing to do with the bike, well, unless you believe the melted break theory.

Is there anyway they can make it manual so the rider has to use it at his peril which would not be possible every corner and give them something to seriously think about. Riders like Nicky and Vale who wouldn't need it all the time would probably be faster than the boys flickin switches. (De Puniet, Stoner)

Just a though.

I started reading this article & thought to myself that this is very relevant to this discussion...

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/motogp/25599/

But then I noticed that some of the comments weren't quite fitting in with my memory of this years events & when I checked the date of the article it was written back in 2006!

The interesting part about it it that all the comments were about the same issues that are being discussed here, except that they are applying it to last years events...

And I thought that many people hold the 2006 season in high regard for it's competitiveness...

so what gives???

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Eagle088 @ Sep 3 2007, 05:14 PM) [snapback]88576[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
It is impossible to completely take traction control out of the equation. The teams will find a way to modulate control though the computer that controls the bikes injectors. AMA did it last year and that is why the AMA amended the rules to allow full traction control because they could not police the other "quasi" traction control. I do not think there is a way to fully take control out of the equation.
This is the problem. There may be an attempt to phase it out. However without a control ECU, it's impossible to police.

Is it safe to race without it, of course it is. It would change a lot of things but it would still be safe, maybe the odd high side here and there but that's racing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DRILL666 @ Sep 3 2007, 09:04 AM) [snapback]88575[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Is it really sensible to ditch traction control?The arguments against it are to get riders connecting with their bikes but we haven`t really scratched the surface of how it`s keeping a lot of riders away from the Costa clinic.

Personally in the past I`ve been all for getting rid of it but as in F1 all measures to slow bikes down are countered by new engineering that gives the power back from elsewhere in the engine or better electronics being developed for the machine.

What worries me most is another incident like the late,great Kato thing occuring again and seeing riders knock themselves about so much that they become sidelined permanently which has robbed us of good talent in the past.


highsiding (which is what most people think of when speaking about TC and safety) doesn't have the disastrous results that most people seem to think it does. sure, it's painful and looks devastating; but try to think of a highside in the last X # of years that resulted in severe injury or death... there aren't any. the really bad injuries are not from highsides; kato, rainey, locatelli, et al; they are usually from other factors. (yes, doohan almost lost his leg in a highside in 92, but it was because he touched the paint; something that at the time even TC wouldn't have helped).

getting rid of TC now would be great because we would instantly get to see how hard the riders are depending on it; i wonder where all the usual players would end up on the grid. however, actually doing it? not possible unless you go back to carbs and/or strokers.

but anyways, i submit that TC hasn't made racing any safer in the grand scheme of things than going from 990 to 800cc has made racing any safer in the grand scheme of things.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drumfu @ Sep 5 2007, 09:24 PM) [snapback]89146[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
highsiding (which is what most people think of when speaking about TC and safety) doesn't have the disastrous results that most people seem to think it does. sure, it's painful and looks devastating; but try to think of a highside in the last X # of years that resulted in severe injury or death... there aren't any. the really bad injuries are not from highsides;

to be honest the only injurys i can think of caused by hight sides since back protectors were introduced is a broke scafiods(wrists) because there still gripping the bars when they twist over. but even there not that common

From the Moto GP site.


A total of 431 crashes have taken place in the MotoGP World
Championship’s three classes so far this season, with a number
of riders somewhat ´persistent offenders’ when it comes to
highsiding, lowsiding and run-offs.

At the end of last season there were 99 crashes in the premier
class involving participants in this year’s championship, with the
current total standing close to that figure with 85. A number of
wet races have been a strong contributing factor to the large
amount of falls in MotoGP, particularly the Grands Prix held at
Le Mans and Donington Park.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Keshav @ Sep 5 2007, 07:58 PM) [snapback]89191[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
From the Moto GP site.
A total of 431 crashes have taken place in the MotoGP World
Championship’s three classes so far this season, with a number
of riders somewhat ´persistent offenders’ when it comes to
highsiding, lowsiding and run-offs.

At the end of last season there were 99 crashes in the premier
class involving participants in this year’s championship, with the
current total standing close to that figure with 85. A number of
wet races have been a strong contributing factor to the large
amount of falls in MotoGP, particularly the Grands Prix held at
Le Mans and Donington Park.



thanks for the quote, but i don't see what the point is?

It would be nice to see how well the bikes / riders would do without electonics I bet Ducati wouldn't be so strong.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mbracing @ Sep 6 2007, 10:43 AM) [snapback]89245[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
It would be nice to see how well the bikes / riders would do without electonics I bet Ducati wouldn't be so strong.

it would be very interesting, it could quite easily go the other way tho, riders like stoner may even be faster because now the electronics are not holding them back but i think either way it would be good for the sport to ditch them.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drumfu @ Sep 6 2007, 02:59 AM) [snapback]89208[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
thanks for the quote, but i don't see what the point is?


Look at the numbers. The electronics are more wide spread and more sophisticated this year, and yet . . . there is an increase in crashing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mbracing @ Sep 6 2007, 05:43 AM) [snapback]89245[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
It would be nice to see how well the bikes / riders would do without electonics I bet Ducati wouldn't be so strong.


There sure does seem to be a lot of people who resent Ducati walking away with the championship. Darn upstarts!
..... ALL the bikes would be less competitive without the electronics. Having raced and owned all different maker bikes, I have no particular "loyalty" to any one marque.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drumfu @ Sep 5 2007, 04:24 PM) [snapback]89146[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
highsiding (which is what most people think of when speaking about TC and safety) doesn't have the disastrous results that most people seem to think it does. sure, it's painful and looks devastating; but try to think of a highside in the last X # of years that resulted in severe injury or death... there aren't any. the really bad injuries are not from highsides; kato, rainey, locatelli, et al; they are usually from other factors. (yes, doohan almost lost his leg in a highside in 92, but it was because he touched the paint; something that at the time even TC wouldn't have helped).

getting rid of TC now would be great because we would instantly get to see how hard the riders are depending on it; i wonder where all the usual players would end up on the grid. however, actually doing it? not possible unless you go back to carbs and/or strokers.

but anyways, i submit that TC hasn't made racing any safer in the grand scheme of things than going from 990 to 800cc has made racing any safer in the grand scheme of things.

Thankfully,very few accidents end up with death in racing but to say a high side is really not that big of deal.Obviously the most serious kind of accident in bike racing is when you never get off and ride head on into a barrier.That is devastating!The high side is much more devastating than a low side and thats what TC has done for safety.It has allmost eliminated the high side and thats a good thing when it comes to watching your rider week in, week out.What it has taken away is the show.This goes back to debates we have had about the love the Europeans have for the 125 and 250 that most Americans dont understand.Well,that style of racing has trickeled into Gp and now even the Europeans dont like it.Lets try to throw out the riders we cheer for and honestly try to put a finger on why we think this year is boring.Is it the style of racing?Is it the machine?Or is it your rider is not winning.To me,its the style of racing,its just not what ive seen in my life which also means its the bike.I want powerslides with blue haze,i want 140mph power wheelies,i want a fire breathing beast that will spit your ... off the second you lose concentration or become hamfisted.What im seeing now is 250 racing with a little more top end speed and it does nothing for me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Keshav @ Sep 6 2007, 07:18 AM) [snapback]89284[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Look at the numbers. The electronics are more wide spread and more sophisticated this year, and yet . . . there is an increase in crashing.
There sure does seem to be a lot of people who resent Ducati walking away with the championship. Darn upstarts!
..... ALL the bikes would be less competitive without the electronics. Having raced and owned all different maker bikes, I have no particular "loyalty" to any one marque.

You could argue that Ducati don't have the experience working without TC that some of the other teams do, in addition to any claims that their electronics are better or that they are more dependent on them.

.... safe...this is Motorcycle racing....the only thing that needs to be "safe" are the tracks...

ditch TC.

What gives people the idea that TC is safer then no TC? Surely it just means a bigger hole in the scenery when it fails.

By "fails" I don't mean when the software goes awry but when circumstances occur that cannot be predicted by the calibrators.

Take Melandri's FP highside where he was on full noise but touched the very wet astroturf and so highsided in impressive fashion. Without TC would he have been on full throttle at that point? Possibly, but TC made it no safer.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<div class='quotemain'> .... safe...this is Motorcycle racing....the only thing that needs to be "safe" are the tracks...

ditch TC.

I agree with CURVE wholeheartedly.