Ducati looking for special test riders...

i say there are ....... with the bike too much to suit melandri.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vale4607 @ Apr 15 2008, 06:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So Stoner cant develop a bike? Apparently Capirossi can, only it seems he likes to develop bikes that he cant actually ride, 6 have tried and failed to tame the beast. The problem as I see it is Melandri and Stoner are fundamentally different riders, one likes the aggressive nature of the duke, one wants a Yamaha with red fairings.

Stoner can handle the way the bike works so will only keep asking for small improvements here and there. Marco is trying everything, turning the bike inside out and getting nowhere, he's looking for 2 seconds a lap FFS!. Elias and Guintoli are Marco 2 and 3. So what does Marco 123 need to get 2-2.5 seconds? Well a redesign of something very major, be that engine or chassis or both that Stoner doesn't. Ducati are screwed either way. What do you do? Follow Marco 123, which could lead to a more rider friendly bike and basically test throughout the season for a run in 09, or support your world champion and follow his lead. Can they afford to do both?

As far as developing a bike goes, I guess Rossi wasn't responsible for the chatter at the front of the Yamaha in 06?

Sometimes a rider's direction isn't great, other times the engineers simply get what the rider wants wrong. I think the Ducati is a great bike..........on paper.
if i remember rightly that chatter was on the new frame yam bought in, once they put the new engine in the old frame (the one rossi developed for years) the chatter went away. they had a special name for this bike but i cant remember what it was.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Apr 15 2008, 11:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>if i remember rightly that chatter was on the new frame yam bought in, once they put the new engine in the old frame (the one rossi developed for years) the chatter went away. they had a special name for this bike but i cant remember what it was.
So your saying in this very 'special' case, Yamaha didn't build the frame based on feedback from Rossi whom had been riding the bike for 2 years, they just decided we'll do whatever we like? Makes perfect sense.

Don't see how you can have it both ways, but ok.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vale4607 @ Apr 15 2008, 02:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So your saying in this very 'special' case, Yamaha didn't build the frame based on feedback from Rossi whom had been riding the bike for 2 years, they just decided we'll do whatever we like? Makes perfect sense.

Don't see how you can have it both ways, but ok.
your getting a bit carried away there mate. i doubt the frames come out the factory perfectly adjusted, thats where the rider input comes in once on track. if i remember correctly yam made to many changes including a new engine and engine position and threw the lot out of balance, rossi mearly rolled them back a bit using the old frame modified for the new engine, gave a better datum to start working from, and it worked !

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>As far as developing a bike goes, I guess Rossi wasn't responsible for the chatter at the front of the Yamaha in 06?

were you suggesting rossi cant develop a bike ?

As far as developing a bike goes, I guess Rossi wasn't responsible for the chatter at the front of the Yamaha in 06?
I guess Rossi wasnt in anyway responsible for the 2002 and 2003 RCV being THE bike to be on (notably when Rossi left Honda the RCV suffered due to lack of clear direction in development).And turning the M1 into a winner in 2004 and then developing it further to make it arguably better than the RC211V for part of 2005?
Also the chatter in 2006 didnt appear till the very last few preseason tests (feel free to correct me)

And yes i know JB is every bit as responsible for development if not more so than Vale

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Duc999 @ Apr 14 2008, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What incentive would Biaggi or Bayliss have to assist the Motogp team?
I don't see Biaggi getting a full factory seat in WSBK from Ducati. I don't see a GP wildcard in the works for the Roman if he develops the bike?

I love Ducati, love Bayliss and I like Biaggi but I wouldn't do it if I were them. We all know how Ducati treated Xaus. Bayliss was kicked to the curb in the Gps only for fans to shame them as Bayliss sat on a satellite honda.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66646 - biaggi seems interested.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Apr 15 2008, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66646 - biaggi seems interested.
i'd say he's wanting to get troys seat for next year & a big favor like this is sure to help.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Apr 16 2008, 12:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>your getting a bit carried away there mate. i doubt the frames come out the factory perfectly adjusted, thats where the rider input comes in once on track. if i remember correctly yam made to many changes including a new engine and engine position and threw the lot out of balance, rossi mearly rolled them back a bit using the old frame modified for the new engine, gave a better datum to start working from, and it worked !



were you suggesting rossi cant develop a bike ?
Carried away, if you say so. You are comfortable saying Stoner is responsible for the 08 Ducati's development "with his development skills for that year proves where his talent does or doesn't lay". So if he is responsible for the machine in its current state is Rossi not also responsible for any direction or performance at yamaha?

Im not saying Rossi can't develop a bike (someone's getting carried away), his record speaks for itself, but the onus seems to be shifted depending on the rider we are talking about. Are far as Im concerned if a rider is responsible for the development (incredibly simplistic view IMO) then mustn't they be accountable for the results of that development good or bad?

No man is an island, Rossi, Stoner, .... v.08 whomever are only as good as the team around them.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 16 2008, 02:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i'd say he's wanting to get troys seat for next year & a big favor like this is sure to help.
2 italians on the team, not good for business. Especially when one of them has next to no english, Michels is pretty bad too

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 15 2008, 10:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i'd say he's wanting to get troys seat for next year & a big favor like this is sure to help.
Absolutely.

INMHO, design and development is done at the factory -- who have their own test riders. Once the bike is released the MotoGP rider's crew chief has the responsibility to "set-up" the bike to the riders liking. If the bike needs to be tweaked beyond the set-up limits, the factory gets involved. However, the factory rarely designs different bikes for different riders. They take feed back from primarily the crew chiefs (whose reponsibility it is to trnaslate the riders chief complaints to actionable items thee factory can work on) and attempt to redesign the bike to bring it closer to their liking. If the riding styles of the factory riders are vastly different (outside the set-up limits) thaen one of them usually gets the short end of the stick.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vale4607 @ Apr 16 2008, 02:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Carried away, if you say so. You are comfortable saying Stoner is responsible for the 08 Ducati's development "with his development skills for that year proves where his talent does or doesn't lay". So if he is responsible for the machine in its current state is Rossi not also responsible for any direction or performance at yamaha?

Im not saying Rossi can't develop a bike (someone's getting carried away), his record speaks for itself, but the onus seems to be shifted depending on the rider we are talking about. Are far as Im concerned if a rider is responsible for the development (incredibly simplistic view IMO) then mustn't they be accountable for the results of that development good or bad?

No man is an island, Rossi, Stoner, .... v.08 whomever are only as good as the team around them.

Now come on - stop with the logic, it's just not accepted here.
When Yamaha is struggling it's Yamaha's fault not Valentino's development skills, but when Ducati struggle it's Stoner's fault entirely. Damn kid is deliberately trying to sabotage Melandri Elias & Sylvan's season.
Why is that so hard to understand? The scary part is they can't see the double standard even though it's staring them in the face.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Apr 16 2008, 02:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>INMHO, design and development is done at the factory ..........

...on the basis of the indications given by the #1 rider and his team, out of the previous year's experience.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Apr 16 2008, 03:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now come on - stop with the logic, it's just not accepted here.
When Yamaha is struggling it's Yamaha's fault not Valentino's development skills, but when Ducati struggle it's Stoner's fault entirely. Damn kid is deliberately trying to sabotage Melandri Elias & Sylvan's season.
Why is that so hard to understand? The scary part is they can't see the double standard even though it's staring them in the face.
every thing is always a stoner v rossi issue with you isn't it . dont you remember the yam evo that didnt work then the hybrid evo that did work ? i9 really cant see why you are trying to turn this into yet another rossi vs stoner thread.

what logic exactly are you referring to ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Apr 16 2008, 01:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>INMHO, design and development is done at the factory -- who have their own test riders. Once the bike is released the MotoGP rider's crew chief has the responsibility to "set-up" the bike to the riders liking. If the bike needs to be tweaked beyond the set-up limits, the factory gets involved. However, the factory rarely designs different bikes for different riders. They take feed back from primarily the crew chiefs (whose reponsibility it is to trnaslate the riders chief complaints to actionable items thee factory can work on) and attempt to redesign the bike to bring it closer to their liking. If the riding styles of the factory riders are vastly different (outside the set-up limits) thaen one of them usually gets the short end of the stick.
sounds about right to me mate.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Apr 16 2008, 12:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Absolutely.
Go mad max

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Apr 16 2008, 08:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>every thing is always a stoner v rossi issue with you isn't it . dont you remember the yam evo that didnt work then the hybrid evo that did work ? i9 really cant see why you are trying to turn this into yet another rossi vs stoner thread.

what logic exactly are you referring to ?

I am referring to the fact that to blame Vale for a poor 2007 Yamaha is plain stupid, as is to blame Casey for the problems on the Duc this year.

However we get this from J4rn0
.on the basis of the indications given by the #1 rider and his team, out of the previous year's experience.

You can't imply things only when it suits you. Was Vale responsible for the 2007 Yamaha & Casey for 2008 Ducati or are neither responsible? The latter of course but some here are insist on their own rants.
The fact that you say I'm trying to turn everything into Stoner v Rossi is mind boggling.
You blokes ( yes you included ) are hell bent on taking pot shots at him whenever you can.
If I need to give you explicit examples - It will only take me a second.
They are pathetic & childish at best.
Mark my words Lorenzo will be the next target.

If you notice - nowhere in my post do I criticize or talk down any riders achievements or abilities.
Why don't you blokes try it some time?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Apr 16 2008, 12:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I am referring to the fact that to blame Vale for a poor 2007 Yamaha is plain stupid, as is to blame Casey for the problems on the Duc this year.

However we get this from J4rn0
.on the basis of the indications given by the #1 rider and his team, out of the previous year's experience.

You can't imply things only when it suits you. Was Vale responsible for the 2007 Yamaha & Casey for 2008 Ducati or are neither responsible? The latter of course but some here are insist on their own rants.
The fact that you say I'm trying to turn everything into Stoner v Rossi is mind boggling.
You blokes ( yes you included ) are hell bent on taking pot shots at him whenever you can.
If I need to give you explicit examples - It will only take me a second.
They are pathetic & childish at best.
Mark my words Lorenzo will be the next target.

If you notice - nowhere in my post do I criticize or talk down any riders achievements or abilities.
Why don't you blokes try it some time?
pot and kettle spring to mind

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Apr 16 2008, 09:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You can't imply things only when it suits you.

Its Rog. Frizz. .... he can ... and he does

I would really like to see Bayliss and Max tussle the GP8. It would be interesting to see what 2 very riders/styles have to say about the bike. If Max gets the Bayliss' WSBK macine for 09 would they keep Fabrizio? Not a lot of mass appeal in having 2 italians on the one squad.

The times Bayliss and Max set are of the most interest, anything up on Melandri and he is really in the .....

Schumachers feedback has obviously been invaluable