Ducati looking for special test riders...

Interesting news on GPone:
http://www.gpone.com/news/News.asp?NNews=1886

Livio Suppo says Ducati will arrange extra tests with Bayliss and Biaggi,
to try to understand why the GP8 is so difficult to ride fast for any rider other than Stoner.
(And, I may add, even for Stoner himself lately...).

This is an implicit admission that Stoner and Melandri can't help much in developing the bike.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 13 2008, 10:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Interesting news on GPone:
http://www.gpone.com/news/News.asp?NNews=1886

Livio Suppo says Ducati will arrange extra tests with Bayliss and Biaggi,
to try to understand why the GP8 is so difficult to ride fast for any rider other than Stoner.
(And, I may add, even for Stoner himself lately...).

This is an implicit admission that Stoner and Melandri can't help much in developing the bike.
thats very interesting, i think the difference in stoners 07 to 08 bike with his development skills for that year proves where his talent does or doesn't lay. as for marco, he hasn't had any real time on the bike to do many changes, but ive never really thought of him as a rider particularly skilled in that area.

i think bayliss's input will be invaluable to ducati, not sure about biaggi, he didnt .... with the 990 yam

Capirosi is never been a good test rider (admitted by himself) so I think all the bulk of developing the bike layed on Guareschi since Gibernau retired.
Since that hasn't changed IMO the ones that lost the plot are the engineers, not the rider input.

if the 08 bike is such a pile of ..... - why don't they just dust off the 07 ?

not going backwards is a Honda-esque atitude and it will leave Stoner with a big hill to climb. Still,I think it's a little early to be writing him off. Estoril has always been a 'Michelin' track.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 14 2008, 07:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Interesting news on GPone:
http://www.gpone.com/news/News.asp?NNews=1886

Livio Suppo says Ducati will arrange extra tests with Bayliss and Biaggi,
to try to understand why the GP8 is so difficult to ride fast for any rider other than Stoner.
(And, I may add, even for Stoner himself lately...).

This is an implicit admission that Stoner and Melandri can't help much in developing the bike.


I see you forgot the part about - " They can't use any of the riders already engaged in MotoGP as testers outside official test days".

But I expected it from you.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (baldylocks @ Apr 13 2008, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>if the 08 bike is such a pile of ..... - why don't they just dust off the 07 ?

not going backwards is a Honda-esque atitude and it will leave Stoner with a big hill to climb. Still,I think it's a little early to be writing him off. Estoril has always been a 'Michelin' track.

Rossi Third ? Running BS ?

As was said, I think Bayliss could help the situation. As far as Biaggi, if the past is any indication, Ducati will know loud and clear what doesn't work.

Either way, I don't think this will provide any breakthroughs. As much as I love Bayliss, he never really did much outside his wild card win at Valencia 2006. The GP3 was a race winner out of the box, I don't know what hand he had in developing the GP4 but that was ...., his stint on a Honda was disappointing and Cappers had the GP6 flying when Bayliss took his win.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Apr 13 2008, 09:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>thats very interesting, i think the difference in stoners 07 to 08 bike with his development skills for that year proves where his talent does or doesn't lay. as for marco, he hasn't had any real time on the bike to do many changes, but ive never really thought of him as a rider particularly skilled in that area.

Agreed on both counts (to a degree anyway).

In CS he has not had much experience of the four strokes nor this class nor has he had consistency in the class (Honda then Ducati, 990 then 800). So I would expect that with a level of consistency he should improve his set-up and feedback abilities although he would not be the first rider who 'could not provide useful feedback' should he not improve.

As for Marco I would have though he could contribute in some useful way with his experience, but on the other side of that coin I think he is just 'all at sea' with the Ducati and has no idea where to start to get what he needs.






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Apr 14 2008, 12:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I see you forgot the part about - " They can't use any of the riders already engaged in MotoGP as testers outside official test days".

But I expected it from you.

Man, that is an obvious excuse as they are already using them every weekend, aren't they - Suppo can't say the riders they have in motogp are all useless as testers, can he?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teomolca @ Apr 14 2008, 12:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Capirosi is never been a good test rider (admitted by himself) so I think all the bulk of developing the bike layed on Guareschi since Gibernau retired.
Since that hasn't changed IMO the ones that lost the plot are the engineers, not the rider input.

You need someone capable to take a bike to the limit to give useful indications for the development, and that is usually done by the race riders, like Pedro for Honda, Rossi for Yamaha etc.
The testers like Guareschi just test the solutions devised by the engineers to go in the direction indicated by the riders.

Now Ducati is looking to Biaggi and Bayliss to give indications to the engineers - this is something the main riders should do, so it means they are unable to offer usable indications (or, the engineers are dumb).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 14 2008, 09:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now Ducati is looking to Biaggi and Bayliss to give indications to the engineers - this is something the main riders should do, so it means they are unable to offer usable indications (or, the engineers are dumb).



Or it means that the feedback they are receiving from their two factory riders is so diametrically opposed that they want some sort of independent opinions from riders whom they respect and who have set-up experience.




Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Apr 14 2008, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Or it means that the feedback they are receiving from their two factory riders is so diametrically opposed that they want some sort of independent opinions from riders whom they respect and who have set-up experience.




Garry

Yep. But it also means that none of the opposite indications has solved anything so far...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 14 2008, 10:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yep. But it also means that none of the opposite indications has solved anything so far...


Yep true.

But if you have two riders who want opposing things in order to solve a problem it poses an interesting conundrum (my tip, is just like Honda last year).

I would say that it may not be a bad move although whether these are the two riders is another question given their lack of experience on the 800's. I reckon that Ducati are looking up Barros' number and not getting calls returned.






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Apr 14 2008, 11:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yep true.

But if you have two riders who want opposing things in order to solve a problem it poses an interesting conundrum (my tip, is just like Honda last year).

I would say that it may not be a bad move although whether these are the two riders is another question given their lack of experience on the 800's. I reckon that Ducati are looking up Barros' number and not getting calls returned.

Garry

Yes! I was also thinking of Barros.
But Ducati have pissed him off badly - they punished him for passing Stoner at Mugello last year.

What incentive would Biaggi or Bayliss have to assist the Motogp team?
I don't see Biaggi getting a full factory seat in WSBK from Ducati. I don't see a GP wildcard in the works for the Roman if he develops the bike?

I love Ducati, love Bayliss and I like Biaggi but I wouldn't do it if I were them. We all know how Ducati treated Xaus. Bayliss was kicked to the curb in the Gps only for fans to shame them as Bayliss sat on a satellite honda.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teomolca @ Apr 14 2008, 12:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Capirosi is never been a good test rider (admitted by himself) so I think all the bulk of developing the bike layed on Guareschi since Gibernau retired.
Since that hasn't changed IMO the ones that lost the plot are the engineers, not the rider input.

huh? i've never heard Capirossi saying anything like that. in fact he's probably a better test rider than Stoner or Melandri.

So Stoner cant develop a bike? Apparently Capirossi can, only it seems he likes to develop bikes that he cant actually ride, 6 have tried and failed to tame the beast. The problem as I see it is Melandri and Stoner are fundamentally different riders, one likes the aggressive nature of the duke, one wants a Yamaha with red fairings.

Stoner can handle the way the bike works so will only keep asking for small improvements here and there. Marco is trying everything, turning the bike inside out and getting nowhere, he's looking for 2 seconds a lap FFS!. Elias and Guintoli are Marco 2 and 3. So what does Marco 123 need to get 2-2.5 seconds? Well a redesign of something very major, be that engine or chassis or both that Stoner doesn't. Ducati are screwed either way. What do you do? Follow Marco 123, which could lead to a more rider friendly bike and basically test throughout the season for a run in 09, or support your world champion and follow his lead. Can they afford to do both?

As far as developing a bike goes, I guess Rossi wasn't responsible for the chatter at the front of the Yamaha in 06?

Sometimes a rider's direction isn't great, other times the engineers simply get what the rider wants wrong. I think the Ducati is a great bike..........on paper.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vale4607 @ Apr 15 2008, 06:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner can handle the way the bike works so will only keep asking for small improvements here and there. Marco is trying everything, turning the bike inside out and getting nowhere, he's looking for 2 seconds a lap FFS!. Elias and Guintoli are Marco 2 and 3. So what does Marco 123 need to get 2-2.5 seconds? Well a redesign of something very major, be that engine or chassis or both that Stoner doesn't. Ducati are screwed either way. What do you do? Follow Marco 123, which could lead to a more rider friendly bike and basically test throughout the season for a run in 09, or support your world champion and follow his lead. Can they afford to do both?
I think the bike seemed to have gone in a drastically wrong direction even in stoners hands at jerez and in dry practice at estoril, whether due to stoner or the engineers. The fact he was able to return to something like his relative pace of last year at least late in the race suggests to me it was due to set-up rather than the engine, especially given that he seemed to be able to chuck it around as per 2007 at qatar. If it is due to the engine they should go back to the old one for the tight tracks.

Stoner's method seems to be the only way to go exceptionally fast with the current bike, and he may lose the confidence to employ this method if there are too many more weekends like the last two. As you imply, it is probably not possible to make the current bike handle like a yamaha or honda.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Apr 15 2008, 08:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think the bike seemed to have gone in a drastically wrong direction even in stoners hands at jerez and in dry practice at estoril, whether due to stoner or the engineers. The fact he was able to return to something like his relative pace of last year at least late in the race suggests to me it was due to set-up rather than the engine, especially given that he seemed to be able to chuck it around as per 2007 at qatar. If it is due to the engine they should go back to the old one for the tight tracks.

Stoner's method seems to be the only way to go exceptionally fast with the current bike, and he may lose the confidence to employ this method if there are too many more weekends like the last two. As you imply, it is probably not possible to make the current bike handle like a yamaha or honda.

No doubt there are serious chassi poblems. I watched closely in QP and they had major issues with bot front and rear. There is no way those could be engine related, but do they need a totally new chassi for the others to ride it? I doubt it. A different set of forks and a swing arm/linkage most probably, but the rest is really up to the teams to figure out. The GP bikes are the most adjustable in the world and I'm sure there are workable solutions, the question is, will they find them?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Apr 15 2008, 07:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No doubt there are serious chassi poblems. I watched closely in QP and they had major issues with bot front and rear. There is no way those could be engine related, but do they need a totally new chassi for the others to ride it? I doubt it. A different set of forks and a swing arm/linkage most probably, but the rest is really up to the teams to figure out. The GP bikes are the most adjustable in the world and I'm sure there are workable solutions, the question is, will they find them?
I profess no expertise, but it certainly looked like a chassis problem to me .

I didn't mean to imply criticism of melandri; if you put both him and stoner on a 2008 honda he quite conceivably could be faster.