Daytona Thread

[michaelm]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 9 2009, 08:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Obviously, only a handful of riders have the skills/equipment necessary to let luck boost them into the lead, but after seeing how many people were on pace at the end, it certainly indicated to me that a majority of the gap between the top riders was caused by interference from lap traffic.

Opposing pace car intervention is no big deal b/c it's a matter of individual preference, but there is no moral imperative. They aren't cheapening the sport by giving the leaders a clear track to the checkered flag.
Why not make it the daytona 20 and take out the sham preliminary laps then

?

I don't disagree that it is not a moral question, but it is a philosophical one. However, it is an american series and if this is what people want, fair enough. These guys run probably the most successful motosport series in the world, and not unreasonably appear to have decided they want wide interest in their motorbike series rather than catering for a few purists like most of us on here. Not my cup of tea though, and I won't be watching the replays as I did last year when I found the races fascinating even though they were only between spies and mladin.

 

[SackWack]

Call me wierd but I actually loved the 200. I like the laps, the pace car drama, the pit stops, the on track racing, and the battleing at the front. It would have been awesome to see 80 bikes circling the track in person. I also like to watch Nascar though

 

[mylexicon]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 9 2009, 04:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why not make it the daytona 20 and take out the sham preliminary laps then

?

I don't disagree that it is not a moral question, but it is a philosophical one. However, it is an american series and if this is what people want, fair enough. These guys run probably the most successful motosport series in the world, and not unreasonably appear to have decided they want wide interest in their motorbike series rather than catering for a few purists like most of us on here. Not my cup of tea though, and I won't be watching the replays as I did last year when I found the races fascinating even though they were only between spies and mladin.

Sham? I never thought I'd hear someone refer to 1.5 hours of racing as a sham. I can barely ride at my peak performance for more than half an hour.

And for the record, I don't think the safety car bunch up is a good strategy, I simply think it's better than the alternative. The only thing worse than bunching em up for a sprint, is having a charity rider (like Hayes' wife) accidentally play a deciding role in the final result.

There is already enough hatred for dangerous riders (Cardenas, Pietri) the last thing they need is for an local shop owner or charity rider to be banished from the sport for failing to see a blue flag in the pitch dark of night. DMG could cut the field, but then there would be less money, less local participation, and fewer fans.

 

[Austin]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JohnnyKnockdown @ Mar 9 2009, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The Buell hasn't even won a race and it's alread the the downfall of the AMA?
Let's wait and see how it plays out. Austin you yourself said the Buell couldn't hang in the corners.
Newsflash, most American tracks are short and twisty. I don't see that bike with that rider finishing inside the top 5 very often. Since when was a Buell anywhere near in handling compared to the Japs.
Fontana, Miller and Road America come to mind as places where the Buell will have quite an advantage. The thing will probably blow up anyways but for the opening third of the race I'm sure it'll be "fun" watching Eslick stand the thing up and pull six bike lengths on Herrin.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JohnnyKnockdown @ Mar 9 2009, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You can't throw this safety car problem on DMG's lap either. It's been there for quite some time.
This race is unique in the fact that it fields 80 riders.
That was the point I forgot to make. I don't think I saw final qualifying times but how on earth are there possibly 80 riders within 107 percent of pole? I saw times that were 15 seconds off the pace. This isn't a track day where everyone can show up and race. This is supposed to be the premier road racing series in the US, why are there riders out there circulating at speeds slow enough to cause danger to lead riders who will no doubt lap them countless times in this race?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JohnnyKnockdown @ Mar 9 2009, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This whole "AMA sucks it's turning into Nascar "is a knee jerk reaction.
Ive been saying it since DMG bought the thing but I thought maybe they could do enough promotion and marketing to make the sport grow but that haven't done that either. Sure it's early but the television coverage has gotten worse since they got involved. We get all the ..... NASCAR rules and none of the non-stop NASCAR coverage. The worst of both worlds. Thanks Roger (not you Rog, Edmundson).

 

[ROCKGOD01]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Mar 10 2009, 01:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Call me wierd but I actually loved the 200. I like the laps, the pace car drama, the pit stops, the on track racing, and the battleing at the front. It would have been awesome to see 80 bikes circling the track in person. I also like to watch Nascar though

HEy news flash Nascar hasn't been racing since the superbirds and when men were men. This thing these ...... bags call racing is really nothing more than a parade of sponsors and who gets to be in the winners circle this week. Nascar is the worst example of racing on the planet. .... go and look this one up and maybe you'll cringe as well. The oldest man to run a qualifying run for the daytona 500. Then try to tell me those guys have any ...... talent. OOOOOK!!!!

 

[SackWack]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Mar 10 2009, 11:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>HEy news flash Nascar hasn't been racing since the superbirds and when men were men. This thing these ...... bags call racing is really nothing more than a parade of sponsors and who gets to be in the winners circle this week. Nascar is the worst example of racing on the planet. .... go and look this one up and maybe you'll cringe as well. The oldest man to run a qualifying run for the daytona 500. Then try to tell me those guys have any ...... talent. OOOOOK!!!!

The reason why there is 100k-150k people in the stands and 10 million tv viewers watching the races each week is not because people want to watch a 4 hour tv commercial. I understand that I am dealing with a tough crowd here so I won't begin to defend it, but I will continue to claim that I watch and enjoy the races. I can't wait for Bristol in a couple weeks. 40 cars packed on a half mile track is pretty fun to watch.

 

[michaelm]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 10 2009, 05:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I can barely ride at my peak performance for more than half an hour.

Sure, fair point. I am speaking theoretically anyway, not having seen the race

. When I do watch nascar which is only occasionally I do find the frequency of the flags which appear contrived at times annoying though.

 

[mylexicon]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Mar 10 2009, 10:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Fontana, Miller and Road America come to mind as places where the Buell will have quite an advantage. The thing will probably blow up anyways but for the opening third of the race I'm sure it'll be "fun" watching Eslick stand the thing up and pull six bike lengths on Herrin.


That was the point I forgot to make. I don't think I saw final qualifying times but how on earth are there possibly 80 riders within 107 percent of pole? I saw times that were 15 seconds off the pace. This isn't a track day where everyone can show up and race. This is supposed to be the premier road racing series in the US, why are there riders out there circulating at speeds slow enough to cause danger to lead riders who will no doubt lap them countless times in this race?


Ive been saying it since DMG bought the thing but I thought maybe they could do enough promotion and marketing to make the sport grow but that haven't done that either. Sure it's early but the television coverage has gotten worse since they got involved. We get all the ..... NASCAR rules and none of the non-stop NASCAR coverage. The worst of both worlds. Thanks Roger (not you Rog, Edmundson).

Can't say that I fault you for being angry, but the idea that DMG were going to make huge changes this season are perhaps a bit unrealistic. I was excited because I knew they could fix the rules package and the safety procedure problems by this season, but I'm not sure much progress was going to be made anywhere else.

Just think of the problems when you compare the AMA to WSBK:

1. Bad venues
2. Bad races
3. Bad rules packages
4. Terrible TV coverage
5. Millions fewer fans
6. Hundreds fewer sponsors, millions fewer dollars
7. Restricted talent pool
8. Rampant cheating
9. Poor safety
10. Terrible earnings
11. Low rider wages
12. No equipment variation
13. etc. etc. etc. etc.

People need to anticipate is more races like the Daytona 200. America is short of racing venues, but DMG has access to nearly every profitable track in the United States. In order to have more race tracks, DMG will certainly pressure owners of NASCAR super speedway tracks to construct infield circuits. Daytona, Indianapolis, and Fontana already have decent infields, but NASCAR will certainly try to get Michigan, Pocono to add infields (probably not Talledega since Barber has got Dixie covered).I think more extended distance races like Daytona will be added in the near future.

We can be pissed all we want, but all they are trying to do is diversify (something the old AMA pro road racing failed to accomplish). Last year we had 4 classes of the exact same thing (the state of tune was the only difference). This year there are two "old AMA" classes (Superbike and Supersport) and two new NASCAR-esque classes (Sportbike and MotoGT) with tons of equipment and varied event types.

The Daytona 200 has been the only event televised to date, it IS NOT what we are used to. Wait until SBK and SS are televised so we can see if the purist series' are still intact. As far as the other problems, give them time.

 

[Arrabbiata1]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Mar 10 2009, 01:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Call me wierd but I actually loved the 200. I like the laps, the pace car drama, the pit stops, the on track racing, and the battleing at the front. It would have been awesome to see 80 bikes circling the track in person. I also like to watch Nascar though

Interesting. Do you ever get to watch any of the endurance racing season? - Over here we get broken coverage of the Bol-Dor on Eurosport. I've noticed that it rarely gets mentioned on here. The 8 hour gets the odd reference, but most bike racing fans seem to remain lukewarm towards it.

 

[Mr. Shupe]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 10 2009, 11:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And for the record, I don't think the safety car bunch up is a good strategy, I simply think it's better than the alternative. The only thing worse than bunching em up for a sprint, is having a charity rider (like Hayes' wife) accidentally play a deciding role in the final result.

That's endurance racing for you. Backmarkers of varying skill levels. Luck mixes in too.

Manipulated races will likely give the series a dubious feeling and cause the relatively knowledgable, niche road racing audience to roll their eyes and lose interest, which can't be good for business. Grand-Am is a good example: a well-subscribed club series for which the participants' family and friends make up the bulk of the audience.

 

[Bootsakah]

Finally watched the Daytona 200 last night, the "most famous race in North America" as they called it, and the biggest joke of a race I have ever seen.

Why I laughed and shook my head:

-600, 675, 848, 1125, exactly what are the specs of this class? Open class or charity class?

-Clearly they are trying to get a Buell (aka Harley) to be on the top of the podium. And then to hear allegations that Buell were given lots of extra "non stock" parts to compete. Then I laughed my ... off watching Buell duct tape and zip tie the fairing back on their bike, brilliant.

-75 riders, are you kidding me. What is this, open track day, "pay X dollars and you too can race with Bostrom!". They were lapping guys after 9 laps, this is not only dangerous but sets up a situation where riders who are hanging with the front pack can get caught up in traffic. Lap traffic is nothing new in the sport, but having that much is just plain ridiculous.

-Racing at night on a partially lit track. Obviously this was done to move the race to a time where they can get more attendance, which incidentally the stands looked empty. And tail lights, clearly to make up for the poor lighting, but still laughable.

-Oh no, the caution is up..... oh it looks like mysteriously two sets of lights just went out guys.... let's bring out the pace car..... lets get those lights fixed...... no bunch back up, lets restart the race. Give me a break, nice stunt they pulled to bring the race back together. Don't they pull this .... in Nascar all the time.

-Rolling start? Truly this is Nascar.

A few things I found positive:
-Speed's coverage was great, I watched it in widescreen HD, nice to see a sport channel like Speed finally get around to doing this.

-Bostrom won.

 

[Jumkie]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>"The walls of finance are crumbling around us, and we must take what we can get," he announced. "Behold the racing! It is exciting and the men and women get to practice their art. Things are bad, with great hardship, yet the racing lives! Embrace it, even though the Safety Car is an abomination and always has been. Say yes to spec tires! Wrap yourself around the fuel that comes from but a single source! Be a fan, not a critic. Shut up. Resistance is useless!" LINK

 

[Mr. Shupe]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bootsakah @ Mar 11 2009, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>-Clearly they are trying to get a Buell (aka Harley) to be on the top of the podium. And then to hear allegations that Buell were given lots of extra "non stock" parts to compete. Then I laughed my ... off watching Buell duct tape and zip tie the fairing back on their bike, brilliant.

Don't tell DMG, but this particular Buell doesn't use a Harley engine.

That still didn't stop Eslick from getting in touch with his "Harley flat-tracker roots."

 

[mylexicon]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bootsakah @ Mar 11 2009, 08:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>-600, 675, 848, 1125, exactly what are the specs of this class? Open class or charity class?

This is the real problem. Right now, AMA Sportbike is whatever DMG deem reasonable.

No one is going to sign off on "Whatever DMG deems as reasonable". It doesn't benefit the fans, media, teams, or riders.

If I remember correctly the Suzuki 750 was listed as eligible for this class, but it didn't make an appearance. I can only imagine that something in the back office was changed. Imagine if Cardenas had an extra 150cc, I don't think it would have been much of a race.

I'm really really disappointed with the Daytona Sportbike rules package because it has no transparency. It many ways, it seems more politically motivated than GP rules.

Just make it easy on everyone, DMG, either enforce a top speed limit or a horsepower limit and let the manufacturers run whatever they feel like as long as it's not current a current AMA Superbike or derived from an AMA Superbike. Is anyone going to hate this class if it brings back the RC51 or the R7? or if it gives Suzuki a place to run its 750?

BTW, why does everyone refer to Daytona Sportbike as NASCAR? NASCAR is spec equipment manufactured by many different companies. The machines have no relation to production equipment. NASCAR makes no right turns.

As far as I can tell, Daytona Sportbike has no rules, all of the bikes are production machines, and they turn left quite a few times. Besides interference from the safety car, there is no similarity!!!

 

[mylexicon]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Mar 11 2009, 10:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Don't tell DMG, but this particular Buell doesn't use a Harley engine


Yet.

If the 1125 works out, I bet Harley will make a big fat offer to move all or part of Rotax's motorcycle division in house.

They might get in a bidding war with BMW.

 

[Bootsakah]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Mar 11 2009, 07:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Don't tell DMG, but this particular Buell doesn't use a Harley engine.

That still didn't stop Eslick from getting in touch with his "Harley flat-tracker roots."

You are correct and I was going to mention the Rotax connection, but what's the point, Buell to the common Harely guy is HD thru and thru. I loved it when Sheheen and Freddy starting talking early on about how excited all "those people on the strip" would be if they heard the Buell (Harley) was on the top of the podium.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great what Buell is trying to do, but the rules manipulating is so out of hand only to get them barely even with a 600cc Japanese machine.

Oh well, I suppose DMG can do all the want with the class, I just find it laughable. I'm sure the casual observer could care less though.

 

[Bootsakah]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 11 2009, 07:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>BTW, why does everyone refer to Daytona Sportbike as NASCAR? NASCAR is spec equipment manufactured by many different companies. The machines have no relation to production equipment. NASCAR makes no right turns.

As far as I can tell, Daytona Sportbike has no rules, all of the bikes are production machines, and they turn left quite a few times. Besides interference from the safety car, there is no similarity!!!

Besides the rolling start (correct me if I am wrong if Nascar does not do such a thing) and the questionable "safety concern" with the lights that precipitated the pace car coming out, I guess you are right, no other direct similarities. However as a previous person pointed out, Buell may not be so factory spec, but this has nothing to do with being Nascar like as you said. For me however, the whole event felt contrived and a step backwards as far as moto racing is concerned. In the end I think it would have been better if it was ran as a day race, and had the field cut down to about half of what it was.

 

[mylexicon]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bootsakah @ Mar 11 2009, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Besides the rolling start (correct me if I am wrong if Nascar does not do such a thing) and the questionable "safety concern" with the lights that precipitated the pace car coming out, I guess you are right, no other direct similarities. However as a previous person pointed out, Buell may not be so factory spec, but this has nothing to do with being Nascar like as you said. For me however, the whole event felt contrived and a step backwards as far as moto racing is concerned. In the end I think it would have been better if it was ran as a day race, and had the field cut down to about half of what it was.

Yeah, the rolling start is another similarity.

I do agree the event felt very contrived. I've been trying to figure out why.

If you think about it, DMG essentially took Superbike and Superstock and created American Superbike. Supersport was demoted to an entry class. Although the rules are still similar, the rider licensing is not.

What about FX?

FX has some powerhouse talent and teams. Edmonson could not tell Erion or Emgo that their 600 FX bikes did not have a home for 2009.

All they did was level the FX playing field then add Buell, Aprilia, and Triumph. The class is a contrived mess but mainly because they couldn't put FX out to pasture. As time passes, I hope the Japanese will develop or reintroduce equipment that can be used in Sportbike.

Suzuki can run a 750. Would any one be angry if the RC51 or R7 made a comeback?

 

[Mr. Shupe]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 12 2009, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, the rolling start is another similarity.

I do agree the event felt very contrived. I've been trying to figure out why.

If you think about it, DMG essentially took Superbike and Superstock and created American Superbike. Supersport was demoted to an entry class. Although the rules are still similar, the rider licensing is not.

What about FX?

FX has some powerhouse talent and teams. Edmonson could not tell Erion or Emgo that their 600 FX bikes did not have a home for 2009.

All they did was level the FX playing field then add Buell, Aprilia, and Triumph. The class is a contrived mess but mainly because they couldn't put FX out to pasture. As time passes, I hope the Japanese will develop or reintroduce equipment that can be used in Sportbike.

Suzuki can run a 750. Would any one be angry if the RC51 or R7 made a comeback?

I wouldn't be bothered if it continued with 600s against the big Buell, so lang as the Buell doesn't have a ridiculous advantage and, once again, the contrived FCYs go away.

Some street vehicles aren't as potent as others; I don't have a problem with a balancing formula that allows different machines to race eachother. I love WSBK, for example, where twins have a 200cc advantage in displacement (although 525 is a little funny).

This class seems like a huge change in philosophy for bike fans; maybe narrowing the perceived gap with 750s would mitigate some of the dissonance for fans. Edmondson apparently didn't think this through before creating Daytona Sportbike. The organisation had its idea and simply went forward, like it did with Grand-Am (Edmondson even said he wasn't concerned about the established sports car fans). I think this approach cost him a lot with the car series, I'm afraid the same will happen with the AMA.

 

[mylexicon]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Mar 12 2009, 11:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I wouldn't be bothered if it continued with 600s against the big Buell, so lang as the Buell doesn't have a ridiculous advantage and, once again, the contrived FCYs go away.

Some street vehicles aren't as potent as others; I don't have a problem with a balancing formula that allows different machines to race eachother. I love WSBK, for example, where twins have a 200cc advantage in displacement (although 525 is a little funny).

This class seems like a huge change in philosophy for bike fans; maybe narrowing the perceived gap with 750s would mitigate some of the dissonance for fans. Edmondson apparently didn't think this through before creating Daytona Sportbike. The organisation had its idea and simply went forward, like it did with Grand-Am (Edmondson even said he wasn't concerned about the established sports car fans). I think this approach cost him a lot with the car series, I'm afraid the same will happen with the AMA.

I don't care if they continue the 600s vs. the Buell either, but I'm not sure it's feasible.

A bone stock Buell puts out as much power as an old FX 600 (and it appears as though they may have reduced the state of tune of the old FX bikes). Buell can't really race a bone stock machine, a stock machine not meant to be ridden hard for over 2 hours without modification. Even minimal engine modding would give the Buell extra horsepower.

An 1125R, Suzuki 750, Ducati 848, Aprilia RSV, all have similar power production. It seems like lightly tuned 750s vs. big twins is a formula for some really good racing. Especially if they group them within a few hp of one another.