Concern for Stoner

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mylexicon

Joined Mar 2007

8K Posts | 2K+

Texas

• Sep 2, 2008

• #21

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Sep 2 2008, 11:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not luck from Ducati and Bridgestones sides, that's true, but certainly luck for Stoner.
First of all he was bloody lucky he got signed at all. Was he No 3 or 4 on the list?
Luck and skill that he gelled so fantastic with the Ducati.
Lucky that the other factories underestimated Ducati, Bridgestone and Stoner.

This is if not unquestionable at least comonly accepted, as well as it's just as obvious that he does have the skill to be a champion.

So achievement is actually luck that you didn't fail?

Why is continental Europe gripped by fatalism?

 

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babelfish

Joined May 2006

3K Posts | 0+

• Sep 2, 2008

• #22

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Sep 2 2008, 09:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So achievement is actually luck that you didn't fail?

Why is continental Europe gripped by fatalism?
Why can't americans follow simple logic?
In fact I have problmes seeing how you got to that conclusion at all. If I said he was lucky not to end in the gravel half of the races, yes. But what I wrote did not link luck or others bad luck to the title result so how can you suggest that? In fact, allthough not as clear part of my point was that he was lucky but that it could not be linked to result it self.

But I think it's fair to say that added together all the factore probably had soemething to do with the result, at least the points if not the championship it self.
I mean, where would Stoner had been on a LCR last year?

Fyi I'm not from the part considered to be Continetal Europe, more the Provinsial? Europe of ....... Far North if you like

 

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Anders

Joined Dec 2007

743 Posts | 0+

Sweden

• Sep 2, 2008

• #23

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (V5Stroker @ Sep 2 2008, 07:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Most people succumb to pressure. But one thing I remember, Stoner was notorious for crashing when he was in 250 class fighting for the championship against Pedrosa and when he was with LCR Honda. If not mistaken he chrashed more than 5 times. Duke hire him but it was a deal not even Suppo knew Stoner / Ducati shall won the MotoGp championship.

2007 was his lucky year. The Duc was damn fast and good with the stones and Yam was lacking power and michelin was bad. Casey won.

2006 was Nicky lucky year and he was consistent. The Yam was bad and Rossi had many DNFs. It was a year to forget for the Yam.

The rest of 2008 is going to be boring as hell, unlike 2006 and 2007 seasons. We already knew Rossi will win the championship...

Don't forget to mention in that context that 2008 the Yamaha is great,perhaps the best bike if the whole 2008 season is considered.

 

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babelfish

Joined May 2006

3K Posts | 0+

• Sep 2, 2008

• #24

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anders GUZZI @ Sep 2 2008, 11:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Don't forget to mention in that context that 2008 the Yamaha is great,perhaps the best bike if the whole 2008 season is considered.
I'll agree that Fiat Yamaha has made the most out of it so far, but I woudn't agree Yamaha is the best bike. To me that's a huge difference. The bike is simply to slow and the Ducati have shown enough prommise and proven to be a very good bike in turns as well on the straights. So to me it's simply the better bike, but what the teams make of it is a different matter. For once they dont have JB there

The only thing against the Ducati is Stoners engine failure this season, but I don't think that is enough to put down to 2nd.

 

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SuperShinya56

Joined Aug 2008

2K Posts | 0+

USA!! USA!! USA!!

• Sep 2, 2008

• #25

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anders GUZZI @ Sep 2 2008, 02:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Don't forget to mention in that context that 2008 the Yamaha is great,perhaps the best bike if the whole 2008 season is considered.

Yamaha does not have the best bike of the year, that honor goes to Ducati. BUT Yamaha do have the best rider this year in Valentino Rossi. Right now Stoner is feeling really insecure about his abilities, he needs to just have a 'Fucc it' attitude and take it to Rossi. Win or Lose he needs to actually take it to Rossi, at least then Rossi will have a little bit more respect for the guy..... not saying he doesn't have any respect for him, but seeing how the last 3 races Stoner was so easily dismantled, Rossi now knows his weakness and will prey upon it until Stoner begins to act like a caged animal and begins to fight back with everything he's got.

 

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Anders

Joined Dec 2007

743 Posts | 0+

Sweden

• Sep 2, 2008

• #26

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Sep 2 2008, 11:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'll agree that Fiat Yamaha has made the most out of it so far, but I woudn't agree Yamaha is the best bike. To me that's a huge difference. The bike is simply to slow and the Ducati have shown enough prommise and proven to be a very good bike in turns as well on the straights. So to me it's simply the better bike, but what the teams make of it is a different matter. For once they dont have JB there

The only thing against the Ducati is Stoners engine failure this season, but I don't think that is enough to put down to 2nd.
I see your point that the bikes are more equal and team personel makes bigger difference,roughly speaking and i agree with that.
I'm comparing also the results.Yamaha riders in general have been doing quite well this year.For instance,Lorenzo,Toseland and Edwards in the first row in quatar ,two rookies,first race weekend.Edwards is suddenly way up in the standings.The only thing against the Yamaha teams have been Michelin in my opinion.

 

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Tom

Joined Feb 2006

9K Posts | 0+

West Yorkshire, UK

• Sep 3, 2008

• #27

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anders GUZZI @ Sep 3 2008, 12:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm comparing also the results.Yamaha riders in general have been doing quite well this year.For instance,Lorenzo,Toseland and Edwards in the first row in quatar ,two rookies,first race weekend.Edwards is suddenly way up in the standings.The only thing against the Yamaha teams have been Michelin in my opinion.

Yea the results would suggest the Yamaha is comfortably the best bike on the grid this season.

 

Jumkie

Joined Oct 2006

25K Posts | 4K+

Your Mom's House

• Sep 3, 2008

• #28

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Goldwing @ Sep 1 2008, 10:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Prior to last year Stoner was ....Bla bla bla
You will fit in here nicely among the Rossi faithful, since your entire post was somewhat of a poorly disguised dig at Stoner.

Everything you said can easily be applied to his challenger Rossi. So Stoner had it "easy" last year, well sure looks alot lke all those titles Rossi won. So Stoner doesn't take losing well and blames .......interesting, I seem to recall Rossi doing the same. So Stoner has a bunch of "overnight fans" haha, Rossi doens't right? Everybody likes a winner. So Stoner lost some fans when he didn't do well...interesting, that reminds me of Rossi fans turning off the TV when Stoner devastated wins. Etc etc. Nothing new, same old ..... If you are wondering about Stoner making it, don't worry he will be fine. Hell look at Rossi, he bounced back, and all he did was the same old .... you claim is a "concern" of yours for poor old Stoner.

 

Jumkie

Joined Oct 2006

25K Posts | 4K+

Your Mom's House

• Sep 3, 2008

• #29

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SuperShinya56 @ Sep 2 2008, 04:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yamaha does not have the best bike of the year, that honor goes to Ducati. BUT Yamaha do have the best rider this year in Valentino Rossi. Right now Stoner is feeling really insecure about his abilities, he needs to just have a 'Fucc it' attitude and take it to Rossi.
Yamaha is by far, by far the best bike on the grid, bar none.

What do you think Stoner has been doing getting poles and leading races? Hello genius, that is what he is doing, so much so that he is crashing because he is pushing so hard. He is basically saying ".... it" I'm gonna win or crash trying.

Just because your mommy lets you use the computer doesn't mean its a good idea.

 

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Helix

Joined Jul 2007

603 Posts | 0+

Andover, Hampshire UK

• Sep 3, 2008

• #30

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Sep 2 2008, 08:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not luck from Ducati and Bridgestones sides, that's true, but certainly luck for Stoner.
First of all he was bloody lucky he got signed at all. Was he No 3 or 4 on the list?
Luck and skill that he gelled so fantastic with the Ducati.
Lucky that the other factories underestimated Ducati, Bridgestone and Stoner.

This is if not unquestionable at least comonly accepted, as well as it's just as obvious that he does have the skill to be a champion.
Don't know that I agree with all of this, he must have impressed Ducati to even be 3rd or 4th on their list, they must have seen some potential. Maybe there was some luck that the guys in front of him all turned it down though.
Gelling with the bike isn't luck, it obviously suits his skill set, he knows how to ride it like it needs to be ridden for maximum results.
And the other factories underestimating Ducati wasn't luck, that was poor development by those factories, this is the pinnacle of motorcycle racing, no company can ever afford to underestimate the opposition.

 

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chopperman

Joined Sep 2006

23K Posts | 3+

• Sep 3, 2008

• #31

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Sep 3 2008, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yea the results would suggest the Yamaha is comfortably the best bike on the grid this season.
sure is, because its got the best rider developing it and riding it.

 

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Tom

Joined Feb 2006

9K Posts | 0+

West Yorkshire, UK

• Sep 3, 2008

• #32

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Sep 3 2008, 10:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>sure is, because its got the best rider developing it and riding it.

Just like last year. I think the bikes qualities are definitely a reflection of the rider and team who operate it.

 

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chopperman

Joined Sep 2006

23K Posts | 3+

• Sep 3, 2008

• #33

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Sep 3 2008, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just like last year. I think the bikes qualities are definitely a reflection of the rider and team who operate it.
last year was workng progress, this year is the finished article. your a "so called " engineer, surly you must realize things don't happen over night. yam not only had a capacity change like the others but they also had tyre rules change effecting there first season unlike ducati. you cant blame rossi for that surely .

 

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Tom

Joined Feb 2006

9K Posts | 0+

West Yorkshire, UK

• Sep 3, 2008

• #34

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Sep 3 2008, 10:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>last year was workng progress, this year is the finished article. your a "so called " engineer, surly you must realize things don't happen over night. yam not only had a capacity change like the others but they also had tyre rules change effecting there first season unlike ducati. you cant blame rossi for that surely .

This sport never stands still, the teams and riders are responsible for keeping up with that. Stoner and Ducati showed the way last year, while others fell behind. I wouldn't describe this year as a finished article by any means, the bikes evelove all the time and the riders have to improve and adapt to keep up. Credit goes to Rossi for increasing his performance to match the best, but equally credit must go to Stoner for establishing himself above Rossi last year.

 

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chopperman

Joined Sep 2006

23K Posts | 3+

• Sep 3, 2008

• #35

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Sep 3 2008, 10:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This sport never stands still, the teams and riders are responsible for keeping up with that. Stoner and Ducati showed the way last year, while others fell behind. I wouldn't describe this year as a finished article by any means, the bikes evelove all the time and the riders have to improve and adapt to keep up. Credit goes to Rossi for increasing his performance to match the best, but equally credit must go to Stoner for establishing himself above Rossi last year.
credit goes to casey for riding the bike and winning the championship but no credit for development. unless he was secretly developing it while working for lcr

 

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Tom

Joined Feb 2006

9K Posts | 0+

West Yorkshire, UK

• Sep 3, 2008

• #36

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Sep 3 2008, 10:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>credit goes to casey for riding the bike and winning the championship but no credit for development. unless he was secretly developing it while working for lcr

So Rossi gets no credit for the 2004 Yamaha turnaround? don't think so. Capirossi himself said it wasn't until the facotry started following Casey's input in pre-season that the bike got beyond his capabilities, not to mention the in-season development that goes on.

 

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babelfish

Joined May 2006

3K Posts | 0+

• Sep 3, 2008

• #37

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Helix @ Sep 3 2008, 11:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Don't know that I agree with all of this, he must have impressed Ducati to even be 3rd or 4th on their list, they must have seen some potential. Maybe there was some luck that the guys in front of him all turned it down though.
Gelling with the bike isn't luck, it obviously suits his skill set, he knows how to ride it like it needs to be ridden for maximum results.
Considering he didn't ride it until well under contract I'd say it was part luck. That is not to say I don't admire his skill, or think it is undeserved but it could just as well been like the Kawa this year or his LCR ride: Front end problems. It does suite his skill set and he couldn't know it would.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>And the other factories underestimating Ducati wasn't luck, that was poor development by those factories, this is the pinnacle of motorcycle racing, no company can ever afford to underestimate the opposition.
Again, not luck from Ducati's side but how was Stoner to know how it would develop at the summer '06? Skill and knowledge? i don't think so.

 

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Helix

Joined Jul 2007

603 Posts | 0+

Andover, Hampshire UK

• Sep 3, 2008

• #38

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Sep 3 2008, 11:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That is not to say I don't admire his skill, or think it is undeserved

We have to agree to disagree on the amount of luck involved, but at least we both agree on this.

 

G

Goldwing

Joined Sep 2008

90 Posts | 0+

Discussion Starter
• Sep 3, 2008

• #39

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Sep 3 2008, 02:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You will fit in here nicely among the Rossi faithful, since your entire post was somewhat of a poorly disguised dig at Stoner.

Everything you said can easily be applied to his challenger Rossi. So Stoner had it "easy" last year, well sure looks alot lke all those titles Rossi won. So Stoner doesn't take losing well and blames .......interesting, I seem to recall Rossi doing the same. So Stoner has a bunch of "overnight fans" haha, Rossi doens't right? Everybody likes a winner. So Stoner lost some fans when he didn't do well...interesting, that reminds me of Rossi fans turning off the TV when Stoner devastated wins. Etc etc. Nothing new, same old ..... If you are wondering about Stoner making it, don't worry he will be fine. Hell look at Rossi, he bounced back, and all he did was the same old .... you claim is a "concern" of yours for poor old Stoner.

You are obviously a rider fan and not a fan of the sport itself as I am. Any text can be twisted to sound negative as you have just tried to do. Your inability to see genuine concern for a rider with huge potential is a pity. Further response to your post will only be a waste of time and effort. Enough said.

 

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chopperman

Joined Sep 2006

23K Posts | 3+

• Sep 3, 2008

• #40

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Sep 3 2008, 10:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So Rossi gets no credit for the 2004 Yamaha turnaround? don't think so. Capirossi himself said it wasn't until the facotry started following Casey's input in pre-season that the bike got beyond his capabilities, not to mention the in-season development that goes on.
dont be a ...... all your life tom. only a total nonce would call the 04 yam (biaggi's creation) a developed bike. rossi won because A. he had superhuman determination and B the competition wasnt the best even tho biaggi had the best bike he still couldn't ride it.
why do you insist on going round and round in circles tom. try ....... reading some posts then we wont need to keep repeating ourselves. you ask to many questions yet take in none of the answers. im on the verge of driving up the m3 here, we can meet at fleet.