Catalunya Race Thread (Spoilers)

[Mental Anarchist]

That may well be true but there were a good 6 or 7 riders on the overnight tyres so they all had the percieved advantage. Too many people hark on about how Rossi had them etc etc but Dani, Sete and a few others also had them. Its a shame Casey wasnt given them in his first year otherwise we may have seen some of the magic we are seeing now.

Did each of those 6 or 7 riders have a SNS made just for them or did they get the SNS that was made specifically for another rider? It is my belief that the tyres were made on the feedback of 1 or 2 riders and then handed out to 6 or 7. If this is the case then the ones that got no input probably got little benefit out of them. I am only speculating as I have no direct facts on the issue but common sense would suggest making 6 or 7 totally different sets of tyres to suit each rider is unlikely.

Yes, stoner winning easily is proof that the sport is authentic, as I also said in 2007.



I think the current formula and the current technology developed at least partly to suit it, and particularly the current tyres, do have an effect on racing as you say, with both the fuel economy aspect contributing to the "one-line" nature of racing, and the relative perfromance of the bikes in a given race establoshed early and thereafter changing little. The best thing they could do for racing would be to get pirelli as a tyre supplier; I believe this rather than kers etc has been the major change in F1 in this regard.



I also would rather watch authentic dominance than confected close racing, but believe there would have been more racing at catalunya if dani was fit and simoncelli unhindered. Once it started raining, or threatening to do so, none of the front runners had much incentive to take risks.

I have said ever since being on here that decreasing tyre performance below that of the bikes and the race distance is the best way to improve racing. F1 just proved it.

I suppose you could call it prototype racing in that there's no requirement of production parts, but with the regulations on fuel, capacity, body work, etc., it's a very, very far cry from figuring out what sort of machine will produce the fastest lap times. I know some people have a technology fetish, but I'm sure that if GP was to disappear tomorrow, all the the top riders would migrate to SBK and the fans would still be there, if not more so.





There were fairly solid eras of close racing in the not-too-distant past: '88-'93, '98-'06. Even during the Doohan years I don't think the average podium gaps are what they are now. The vast majority are decided within the first 5 laps. The way the forums light up when there's a close race (Laguna'08, Catalunya '09) is an illustration of how rare an occurrence it is.



24L of fuel wouldn't be a guarantee that the racing would be more interesting, but it seems like an easy, inexpensive variable to experiment with.

I agree that the constraints of regulations decreases the creativity of prototyping however the result of the different manufacturers engineering success is plainly visible if we are to believe that the Honda is so superior and the Ducati is so bad.



There has been some close racing in 800cc era as well. However I do not believe that the success or enjoyment of the sport is dependent on close racing. If that were true then F1 would be extinct. I think you will find the boring problem is a result of who is winning by a margin not that there is a margin between 1st, 2nd and third.



The 21L issue is here to stay and really it should be becoming less of a problem as surely by now the technology on fuel saving must have improved significantly if we are to believe it is being done for R&D. If the tyre performance was reduced below that of the bikes then the race to eek more performance out of the bike would be reduced because it becomes unusable. This would be the cheapest way to improve the spectacle in my view.

 

[beefsupreme]

If the tyre performance was reduced below that of the bikes then the race to eek more performance out of the bike would be reduced because it becomes unusable. This would be the cheapest way to improve the spectacle in my view.

Maybe, but you wouldn't need a new supplier to make that happen. Reduce the allowance of tires per round and teams will have to settle for a more durable, less grippy compound.

 

[Mental Anarchist]

Maybe, but you wouldn't need a new supplier to make that happen. Reduce the allowance of tires per round and teams will have to settle for a more durable, less grippy compound.

More durable is not the right way to go. You want less durable so it requires race strategy to make them work till the end. So give them more less durable tyres.

 

[beefsupreme]

More durable is not the right way to go. You want less durable so it requires race strategy to make them work till the end. So give them more less durable tyres.

Sounds like it would make setup more complicated. And patchy conditions like Jerez are as much a lottery as a display of skill when the tires aren't up to the task.

 

[Tom]

Simoncelli looked broken. He's realizing the politics of the whole thing in the premier class is no joke.

Or he's realized crashing out of all the races and being public enemy number 1 is getting him nowhere, and that he has to take a step back before he can go forward.

I'll add, I'm not too keen on peeps turning down one-off rides.

I remember reading something a while ago, possibly a quote by Alain Prost where he pointed out the importance in selecting the right opportunity to come to the big stage, often it is about the offers you turn down, not the ones you take. It is all too easy for aspirational riders to jump at a chance they are given because they want it so bad without thinking through the long term gain/loss they may incur for doing so.

 

[chopperman]

Dont worry mate, its just those haydenettes are all a bit beat up at the moment (past 5 years). Thats why they'vel latched on to stoner

 

[Gaz]

I disagree, and I've been pretty harsh on Hopkins in the past. He's still only 28 and is in better physical condition than he was in when he was 24, and he's also given up the party lifestyle from what I understand. Past that, you look at all the riders advancing from BSB to WSBK and being relatively successful and then see Hopkins turning up to tracks he's never seen before and winning and consistently podiuming, I think that says something. Is he ever going to win a MotoGP world championship? Probably not, but I wouldn't count him out just yet. And I, for one, would like to see him on a competitive GP bike.

Austin, I have not really been a fan of Hopkins as I felt he got a lot of opportunity for little effort (in terms of team effort) and result for a number of years when in MotoGP, and frankly I still at times wonder about the 'hype' that surrounded him for a number of years (we did not get any US racing coverage at the time).



Thus, I am probably one (and Jums and I have had these discussions) who personally had no problems with Hopkins departure from the MotoGP scene as frankly I do not believe his results warranted his place (who to replace was a question of course). But more to the point for me was the 'rumours' emanating from the paddock regarding his non-appearance at various team functions or even turning up smelling of alcohol to race, a major no-no irrespective of the reasons (said at the time to be relationship based). As such, when he left I did not shed a tear but rather thought it was another wasted opportunity.



But what I have seen this year (including the toothy smile) is not the Hopkins I recall from his MotoGP days as his approach seems far more professional and determined, and that is before he gets on track.



Whilst we may get the BSB races a few weeks after they occur, watching him ride that Suzuki is a revelation in just how easily he makes the bike look when compared to a number of other Suzuki runners, never mind other makes for regular BSB riders. The fact that he has also not seen or ridden many of these tracks previously yet is able to go out and is generally amongst the fastest is a fantastic feat of it's own as the British tracks would appear not to follow any pattern, each is different.



What am I trying to say?



Well I have enjoyed watching him this year and can see a Hopkins that appears to be a totally new person to that of the old Hopkins, but whether that means for me that he should be in MotoGP I am not so sure as I wonder if the MotoGP paddock may have been a cause of some of his problems.











Gaz

 

[Jumkie]

Gaz, dont fight it buddy. That time he missed an appointment was overblown. An incident does not a career make. Hell, i'd go so far as to say, u probably would find a few who'd admit that Rossi went down at Indy cuz he was hungover. Quietly, of course, then deny it if it went public. Yes. U probably dont know it cuz things like this get wept under the rug. But it reminds me of M. Jordan who took a sudden leave from NBA to persue his baseball career, suposedly. While quietly he was investgated for gambling.



Oh, and let me ask u, if the "GOAT" cant do anything with the Duc, perhaps the greatest effort toward ONE man of all time, what do u suppose he would hav done on a Suzuki? We would hav never known the man now touted as "GOAT" now would we?

 

[Gaz]

Gaz, dont fight it buddy. That time he missed an appointment was overblown. An incident does not a career make. Hell, i'd go so far as to say, u probably would find a few who'd admit that Rossi went down at Indy cuz he was hungover. Quietly, of course, then deny it if it went public. Yes. U probably dont know it cuz things like this get wept under the rug. But it reminds me of M. Jordan who took a sudden leave from NBA to persue his baseball career, suposedly. While quietly he was investgated for gambling.

Jums, more concerned about the alleged time he turned up drunk after the all night bender after a domestic.



You and I have discussed Hopper numerous times and I genuinely do not see a reason for the hype that surrounded him the first time, and I do admit saying that with total bias eyes (yes, a CV tragic) and to date I still do not see to much reason. Good rider, definitely as all that get to a world stage are, deserving of a ride, well yep as I will never begrudge any person an opportunity, deserving of ridicule, well to a degree as the party boy side was there, but he did not and does not deserve to have suffered the injuries he did (no person deserved that).



But as I said, I am totally impressed by him in BSB and wish him all the best as he is producing results that show a higher level of talent as for mine, the ability to learn a circuit quickly is amongst the hardest thing to do for any racer, and he is doing it nearly each round whilst producing podium results.



But again, as I said, I do wonder if MGP is the place for him as I wonder if that paddock and the business approach of it contributed in part to his off track issues (as it was these and the injuries I feel scuttled his, and many careers).



Jums, I am not yet prepared to fully re-write my opinion of him but am happy to admit that the 'new' Hopper is impressive

Oh, and let me ask u, if the "GOAT" cant do anything with the Duc, perhaps the greatest effort toward ONE man of all time, what do u suppose he would hav done on a Suzuki? We would hav never known the man now touted as "GOAT" now would we?

Mate, we have mentioned in the past that the Suzuki is a career killer as I rate CV highly and we know what happenned there (although he did get one win more than your man

).



The Suzuki is a dog and no matter who was on it it would remain a dog and a career killer and I for one as controversial as this will be, will have no tears shed about their departure from the sport should they choose as they should be here 100% or not at all.















Gaz

 

[eltoro]

Kropotkin says it's nearly a done deal Aoyama will get Pedrosa's bike while he's away with a test rider, forgotten his name now, stepping in at Gresini.

Didn't HRC at the last minute also give Aoyama a factory bike before the season along with Sic so Gresini became factory 'B' squad? I don't see how moving Aoyama to Repsol does anything, as I don't see him moving up that many places. He's riding the same machinery only in different colors.

 

[BarryMachine]

Cataulunya race boring

????



http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/201106063895/motogp-noiosa-in-7.000.000-in-tv.html





I don't think so

 

[inam22]

Another great display from Stoner and i think he had 2 or 3 tenths in hand if he needed to go any faster, only thing he could of done differently this weekend possibley stayed behind Lorenzo and pressure him from behind to force him in making some sort of mistake. Yamaha definately need some thing extra to beat Honda/Stoner combination, Lorenzo was very fast in corner entry but on corner exit Stoner was too strong for him.



Things not looking too promising for Rossi / Ducati this year, i think they need to make some radical changes to 2012 chassis design and perhaps go towards more conventional design. Ducati has lost their advantage to its competitors since start of 2009 by going different way, i thinks its time for them to rethink their future strategy regarding new chassis design.



By the way last year in Catalunya race Hayden finished 23 seconds behind Stoner and this year he finished 26 seconds behind Rossi.

 

[BarryMachine]

Didn't HRC at the last minute also give Aoyama a factory bike before the season along with Sic so Gresini became factory 'B' squad? I don't see how moving Aoyama to Repsol does anything, as I don't see him moving up that many places. He's riding the same machinery only in different colors.

Dead right ..... however you have not factored in the Hierachy that money has set up within the "not-quite Honda" ranks.

 

[michaelm]

Jums, more concerned about the alleged time he turned up drunk after the all night bender after a domestic.



You and I have discussed Hopper numerous times and I genuinely do not see a reason for the hype that surrounded him the first time, and I do admit saying that with total bias eyes (yes, a CV tragic) and to date I still do not see to much reason. Good rider, definitely as all that get to a world stage are, deserving of a ride, well yep as I will never begrudge any person an opportunity, deserving of ridicule, well to a degree as the party boy side was there, but he did not and does not deserve to have suffered the injuries he did (no person deserved that).



But as I said, I am totally impressed by him in BSB and wish him all the best as he is producing results that show a higher level of talent as for mine, the ability to learn a circuit quickly is amongst the hardest thing to do for any racer, and he is doing it nearly each round whilst producing podium results.



But again, as I said, I do wonder if MGP is the place for him as I wonder if that paddock and the business approach of it contributed in part to his off track issues (as it was these and the injuries I feel scuttled his, and many careers).



Jums, I am not yet prepared to fully re-write my opinion of him but am happy to admit that the 'new' Hopper is impressive











Mate, we have mentioned in the past that the Suzuki is a career killer as I rate CV highly and we know what happenned there (although he did get one win more than your man

).



The Suzuki is a dog and no matter who was on it it would remain a dog and a career killer and I for one as controversial as this will be, will have no tears shed about their departure from the sport should they choose as they should be here 100% or not at all.















Gaz

Gaz, I nearly always agree with you, but don't on hopper. 4th in 2007 on the suzuki was seriously impressive, and he generally out-performed cv, who had webbed feet in wet races as in the race he won. I don't think the 2007 suzuki was too bad, but they like ducati were heavily dependent on the bridgestone tyre they helped develop, and have not been able to get the power down since its demise, as well as the seeming total lack of will from the factory of course as you say.

 

[Jumkie]

Cataulunya race boring

????



http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/201106063895/motogp-noiosa-in-7.000.000-in-tv.html





I don't think so

You do realize those numbers were based on 'anticipation' right? No, no you don't.

 

[BarryMachine]

You do realize those numbers were based on 'anticipation' right? No, no you don't.

yeah I do ..... and then thought about it ........... and decided, anticipation is itself almost the antithesis of boredom ....... especially when the anticipation reaches the stage of angst as it may for some fans out there

Boredom is fulfilled when one turns off completely with something ........ they no longer get anything out of it .... so I'm going with it, eg. hows the cake decorating going lately with you? still interested in it? still watching the international cake decorating championships? why not .....

 

[Gaz]

Gaz, I nearly always agree with you, but don't on hopper. 4th in 2007 on the suzuki was seriously impressive, and he generally out-performed cv, who had webbed feet in wet races as in the race he won. I don't think the 2007 suzuki was too bad, but they like ducati were heavily dependent on the bridgestone tyre they helped develop, and have not been able to get the power down since its demise, as well as the seeming total lack of will from the factory of course as you say.

Michael, I am more that happy to say I am likely wrong on Hopper but I am also strongly bias given my like of CV as a person and as an under-appreciated rider whom never achieved what he should have in MGP.



The problem we have (no excuse either) in this country is that sadly we do not get to see a riders 'passage' to the higher classes where that passage does not involve GP classes or more recently WSBK. So we often do not get to see the 'brilliance' of a rider who may come direct from the AMA etc and as such have to base our opinions on the higher classes - and as an unabashed extremely hard marker I may be harder to impress.



Hopper did have some brilliant races, no doubt and the feat of finishing fourth was exceptional on a bike that was in the power stakes outclassed but for me, from 2007 everything then went downhill for all associated with Suzuki. Then of course we had Hopper on the secondary career killer in the Kawasaki, another under perfoming machine that afflicted a few riders in their day and left a number broken and battered (and in CV's case seems to have flowed through to WSBK).



That all said, I am glad to see him back (as I would be any rider in these circumstances) as the sheer fact that he is now racing competitively again in a close championship says a lot about the guys resolve and drive. He could have easily retired to low level racing and seen out his days as a wasted talent after his problems/indiscretions but he has returned and is showing (to me anyway) a far more mature and intelligent approach to his racing.



Given what I have seen I feel humbled that my judgements in the past may have been harsh (although I am to pig headed not to stand by them

) but I am also extremely happy to watch the guy ride as I have become a fan due to the BSB coverage we get.



But, as I also mentioned I do hope I am wrong, but I do wonder if the MGP paddock played it's part in his issues of the past and whether he is ready for that level of scrutiny and expectation again as it has gotten harsher since he left.



That said, I would actually like to see him beat the likes of Shakey and whomever to take a crown as IMO he does seem comfortable and settled at that level.



Either way, good for him and personally (going back a bit here) I have no problems with his supposed refusal of rides on Tech3 and Repsol (remembering that Poncharal denied that he approached Hopper). I say this as Hopkins is a contracted rider and must abide by that contract as to jump on another bike as a temporary one off ride is likely a hiding to nothing (although his ride on the Suzuki this year was fun).











Gaz

 

[beefsupreme]

Didn't HRC at the last minute also give Aoyama a factory bike before the season along with Sic so Gresini became factory 'B' squad? I don't see how moving Aoyama to Repsol does anything, as I don't see him moving up that many places. He's riding the same machinery only in different colors.

Aoyama has been on the customer bike -- Nakamoto confirmed it.



He seemed to have a very hard initial adjustment to the 800's electronics last year, so it might turn out that the factory bike doesn't make him a lot faster. We'll see...

 

[Gaz]

Ah, and afterthought.



Jumkie/Arrab et al,



What kind of sponsorship does Hopkins carry with him?



Asking given the way this thread has now been taken (by me) onto the Hopkins front as would he carry enough sponsorship dollars with him to entice Suzuki (as an example) to remain in MGP or to be able to afford a non-CRT ride?











Gaz

 

[Bunyip]

Random thoughts........................



Boring race for Rossifans,but they forget that their "exciting races " often included a runaway Rossi. Sure I,ve seen much better.

Also, I think the lack of passing and bold chasing was the result, largely, of those particularly tricky not dry, not fully wet track surfaces.



Simoncelli,s bike was not doctored. As others have said, he was more cautious due to the officials warnings and the penalty in the 125s.

I have no sympathy for him. He is a dangerous clown and has been risking injury to his competitors for years. He should have matured by now. Also, he did Honda no favours, by failing to get in front of Lorenzo to reduce his points. Dovi failed in this regard as well. As much as dani and Dovi are on borrowed time, I don,t want to see that clown on a repsol honda in the future.



As much as people speak of Stoners domination and probable world title , the fact remains that Lorenzo is still leading the championship.(Although, without Rossi,s faux pas this would not be the case) Both smart and determined riding on his part. A few stupid moves by Simo would be the only thing likely to gift the championship to Lorenzo. Have Honda mentioned this fact to Simo??



Was it possible for Hopkins to ride for Honda while he is contracted to Suzuki in BSB? Some say his possible ride was blocked by Suzuki (Would have been a wonderful opportunity for him to assess the Honda and report any findings back to Suzuki)

I (like Mike) think Hopper did pretty well in his healthy years, and as much as I barracked for CV, thought that Hopper on average was faster. CV was ok, but not good enough to get near the top. Also CV got into the bad habit of talking himself up too much in the last 2 years in GP. I note that Crutchlow has the same bad habit. He should follow Spies example and be more humble about his prospects.



Unless Ducatis GP12 does away with the engine as a stressed member concept, Rossi and co will not have a very happy 2012 either.



Chops is still alive. I was just about ready to PM him........................................