Carmelo Ezpeleta says MotoGP must change now

chopperman · Nov 18, 2011

BHarvey said:
I might be stupid, and admit to as much on occasion, but having read about the differences in the ECU's from factory SBK's, to the EVO class in BSB, it would seem logical that that would be the single greatest step in the right direction.

Might negate the 'factory' advantage altogether.

One thing i would like to know is what is the deal with ECUs. An ecu is just a computer that has the map for that engine. Are motogp ECU's mappable ie are they mapped by the team for that specific bike and would a control ECU not be re-mappable?

Keshav · Nov 18, 2011

Kropotkin said:
2013 should see the introduction of spec ECUs and a rev limit. It won't mean the end of the factories, as they have nowhere else to race, with the possible exception of Ducati. WSBK offers the factories even less grip over the rules, so no joy there. Only GP offers the prestige (rightly or wrongly) that the factories want.

Been thinking the same thing. How long can they go on having their collective ..... handed to them? They've put (or so we all imagine) a small fortune into the current bike and it doesn't look promising. I wonder if Marlboro is contracted to sponsor them for more than a year at at time. If Marlboro doesn't see results by mid-season - I could see them backing away from this train-wreck, and if CRTs evolve at a reasonable pace - that could be a lot of egg-on-the-face for the boys in red come 2013.

Kropotkin · Nov 18, 2011

chopperman said:
One thing i would like to know is what is the deal with ECUs. An ecu is just a computer that has the map for that engine. Are motogp ECU's mappable ie are they mapped by the team for that specific bike and would a control ECU not be re-mappable?

That is a simple description, but it misses out a whole lot. An ECU is a computer. It holds a map for the engine. In fact, it holds a whole bunch of maps for that engine, and it can choose to apply a particular map based on the particular set of circumstances. The map (and basically, what we are talking about is throttle response, how direct or how gentle) can be selected based on throttle position, engine revs, gear selection, bike speed, bike attitude in three axes, suspension position, air temperature, wheelspin (based on a comparison of front and rear wheels). Yamaha also have software which is predictive: e.g. it knows the delta, or rate of change, of many of those parameters, and based on the rate of change, it can take the appropriate action. Using the gyroscope, it can calculate that the bike is changing its pitch rapidly (e.g. starting to wheelie) and can soften the map or cut the power to provide anti-wheelie. It knows what lap the bike is on, and knows roughly what the tire wear is like on that lap, and can estimate how much power it needs to cut on corner exit to limit sliding, and can recalculate on the fly if the bike slides or spins more.

In short, the ECU holds a bunch of maps. But the clever (and really expensive) stuff is in working out which map to use. It is the software that controls map selection which is the clever and expensive part. A spec ECU would prevent teams from altering the software, and only allow them to upload maps to the ECU. It would also control the variables the teams can use for map selection.

chopperman · Nov 18, 2011

Kropotkin said:
That is a simple description, but it misses out a whole lot. An ECU is a computer. It holds a map for the engine. In fact, it holds a whole bunch of maps for that engine, and it can choose to apply a particular map based on the particular set of circumstances. The map (and basically, what we are talking about is throttle response, how direct or how gentle) can be selected based on throttle position, engine revs, gear selection, bike speed, bike attitude in three axes, suspension position, air temperature, wheelspin (based on a comparison of front and rear wheels). Yamaha also have software which is predictive: e.g. it knows the delta, or rate of change, of many of those parameters, and based on the rate of change, it can take the appropriate action. Using the gyroscope, it can calculate that the bike is changing its pitch rapidly (e.g. starting to wheelie) and can soften the map or cut the power to provide anti-wheelie. It knows what lap the bike is on, and knows roughly what the tire wear is like on that lap, and can estimate how much power it needs to cut on corner exit to limit sliding, and can recalculate on the fly if the bike slides or spins more.

In short, the ECU holds a bunch of maps. But the clever (and really expensive) stuff is in working out which map to use. It is the software that controls map selection which is the clever and expensive part. A spec ECU would prevent teams from altering the software, and only allow them to upload maps to the ECU. It would also control the variables the teams can use for map selection.

Thanks for the info Krop.

Im thinking along the lines of my car and from what you have said its obvious the motogp ECU is far more sophisticated as i would expect.

My point is, if i make a change on my car like Exhaust, airfiler, boost ect i have to have it re-mapped to not only get the full advantage but to stop it going bang. My question is, will the teams be able to adjust a map on a spec ECU for engine tuning purpose ?

cheers

Kropotkin · Nov 18, 2011

chopperman said:
Thanks for the info Krop.

Im thinking along the lines of my car and from what you have said its obvious the motogp ECU is far more sophisticated as i would expect.

My point is, if i make a change on my car like Exhaust, airfiler, boost ect i have to have it re-mapped to not only get the full advantage but to stop it going bang. My question is, will the teams be able to adjust a map on a spec ECU for engine tuning purpose ?

cheers

They will be able to alter all of the variables (e.g. air/fuel ratio, injection timing, ignition timing, etc etc etc). What they won't be able to (easily) alter is the logic used to switch maps.

To compare it to your car: on some cars, the ECU is clever enough that you can fit a different exhaust and they will adjust the mapping automatically, based on measuring the exhaust gases. The better the ECU and software, the quicker it adapts. What the spec ECU rule is aimed at doing is at standardizing that rate of adapting to new conditions, if you see what I mean.

chopperman · Nov 18, 2011

Kropotkin said:
They will be able to alter all of the variables (e.g. air/fuel ratio, injection timing, ignition timing, etc etc etc). What they won't be able to (easily) alter is the logic used to switch maps.

To compare it to your car: on some cars, the ECU is clever enough that you can fit a different exhaust and they will adjust the mapping automatically, based on measuring the exhaust gases. The better the ECU and software, the quicker it adapts. What the spec ECU rule is aimed at doing is at standardizing that rate of adapting to new conditions, if you see what I mean.

Thats answered my questions. Thanks mate.

Pigeon · Nov 18, 2011

from a fans point of view get these back into the motogp weekend problem solved if the bikes races are .....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3sH-mJcgXY

birdman · Nov 18, 2011

Austin said:
How long ago are you talking? I remember for two years after the 800cc formula was announced, Honda were linked with building a triple. The thought was that they could lop off two cylinders from the all-conquering RC211V V5 and get the weight advantage for Pedrosa.

Must of been this:

http://www.motoblog.it/galleria/team-fb-corse-nuovo-team-motogp/3

mylexicon · Nov 18, 2011

birdman said:
Must of been this:

That engine was actually designed by Oral Engineering (Mauro Forghieri, the father of the Ferrari 312 and Ferrari 312PB, is the technical director at Oral) for BMW as part of their exploration into 800cc MotoGP competition. BMW declined to enter, and Oral either sold the engine to FB Corse or supplied it to them. Oral are supposedly working on a Moto3 entry with Mahindra ATM.

Pigeon · Nov 19, 2011

here seems the most appropriate thread

had a email with a nice linky not listened yet but here it is..i hope the sender don't mind

a mp3 podcast discussion with a Kropotkin & Austin

http://backedin.podomatic.com/

We discuss all things MotoGP, CRT, Moto2, Moto3, and World Superbike.

permalink listen

http://backedin.podo...T16_11_48-08_00

Austin · Nov 19, 2011

mylexicon said:
Oral are supposedly working on a Moto3 entry with Mahindra ATM.

That could be very interesting.

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Carmelo Ezpeleta says MotoGP must change now

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