Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
but how is that possible?i thought the msma alone would decide on such rule changes?
if all thats true ,great times ahead for motogp
Carmelo Ezpeleta says MotoGP must change now
- Thread starter rossiofsky
- Start date
but how is that possible?i thought the msma alone would decide on such rule changes?
if all thats true ,great times ahead for motogp
Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
but how is that possible?i thought the msma alone would decide on such rule changes?
if all thats true ,great times ahead for motogp
but how is that possible?i thought the msma alone would decide on such rule changes?
if all thats true ,great times ahead for motogp
The MSMA have a contract with Dorna giving them a monopoly over technical rules. That contract expires at the end of this year. Dorna are in no rush to sign a new contract with the MSMA...
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
A two stroke has no cylinder head to speak of.
How much do you think this thing weighs?
Ok thats a good point. But the 119kg two stroke was from 1985. 2011 and they cant afford to even get close to that?
To directly compare a two-stroke to a four-stroke, I have to go to mx bikes.
According to Yamaha specs, a yz250 2stroke weighs in at 227lb. yz250f 4stroke weighs 227lb. How can it be the same, whats the head weigh?
450's replaced the old 2 strokes. A yz450f weighs in at 245 lb. Difference 18 lb, 8kg. So really a four stroke should not weigh more than 10-15kg kg heavier. Which would mean a 135 kg minimum for motogp four strokes. Coincidently same as moto2. This was actually listed for twins, but no one has made one. There was a report somewhere about another tripple (beside the cube) designed to take advantage of the lower weight but it never showed up. I think is was a Cosworth?
Joined Apr 2011
636 Posts | 26+
Gold Coast
have a look at a modern gp bike with its clothes off compared with that old nsr. the electronics, plugs, wires and sensors that go with them would add up. they look like a bowl of black spaghetti behind the nose of the fairing. Check out the different suspension too. The old bikes had very primitive spindly little forks, and the modern ones run big fat big piston jobbies.
I would have a guess and say that the cooling systems in the modern bikes would weigh in at a bit more too, at they develop a heap more power than the old bikes, so would need something more heavy duty.
You seen the forks on a 1985 500? You think they were 48mm? There's a lot more material on a bike meant to cope with 240hp instead of 140hp.
Also I would have thought a YZ250F would be a single cylinder therefore they wouldn't have a massive head like a cylinder too which would reduce weight.
Joined Jul 2006
11K Posts | 291+
Texas
what kind of HP yall think the 1000s will be pushing?.. the 990s were said to be about 250-260..
oh and put'm on Dunlops hell the lower classes run'm
oh and put'm on Dunlops hell the lower classes run'm
Not in a cost effective manner, imo. Gotta remember the old engines had square bore-stroke so when they moved to 990s and 800s, the engines were bored from 50-someting-mm to 80-something-mm. That's 3cm of extra real estate along both axes, and then add another engine-worth of metal on top for the valvetrain. Plus, what Krop said as well about beefing everything up to handle the extra power, speed, grip, and weight.
Is 119kg possible. Probably. But they'd have to use composite metals and ceramics, imo, and they'd have to master carbon fiber frame design or 'monocoque' design.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
Thats what I was thinking of. A twin cylinder monocoque ala the new Ducati, weighing in much lighter to make it competitive. The last of the 500's were supposed to have around 220hp. The chasis were light and handled it. Yet there is no way to even consider it with the 81mm bore restriction. So an 1199cc engine is no good for motogp. They would have to enlarge an 848 with an ultra long stroke. Tripple is no good. Not even a V5 to be seen. So we get stuck with run of the mill 4 cylinders all the same weight, same delta box chasis. I hope 2013 brings in massive changes.
Ducati Superbike 1199 Superquadrata have confirmed the rumors that the new Bologna bullet will do away with the tradition belt-driven camshaft and instead feature a gear-driven cam configuration.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
My other thought was that Suzuki or any other team wanting to stay with an 800 next near could be given a lower weight minimum to compete against the 1000's. But if it costs less to make a 1000cc engine than to lose 15kg then the question is answered. I read somewhere they currently use ballast to make the weight. Its a big advantage to have the bike itself lighter, then position the weight to aid handling?
Joined Jul 2008
2K Posts | 14+
Tweed Valley Australia
I think all the speculation is just that, we'll have to wait until next year to see. If the CRT bikes are being lapped DORNA will be embarrassed and the naysayer crowd will be all vindicated. I hope this isn't the case because then (at great cost) another fix for the series will have to materialise.
They can't continue to change rules and capacities and talk of control ECU's when the latest from Aprilia BMW and Ducati have brilliant units on street bikes, I think Casey, especially as world champion should have kept his mouth shut on the issue as should Dovi and Ben. Open warfare between the sports governing body and the riders is a recipe for further costs and the key factor in all of this is that the sport cannot absorb costs like it wishes it could.
CRT has to succeed for motogp to survive the EU crisis. As I said in a previous thread when the European and Japanese economies are back on their feet CRT can be modified to suit whatever purpose is necessary then, even phased out. but they have to keep the show on the road until that day comes.
They can't continue to change rules and capacities and talk of control ECU's when the latest from Aprilia BMW and Ducati have brilliant units on street bikes, I think Casey, especially as world champion should have kept his mouth shut on the issue as should Dovi and Ben. Open warfare between the sports governing body and the riders is a recipe for further costs and the key factor in all of this is that the sport cannot absorb costs like it wishes it could.
CRT has to succeed for motogp to survive the EU crisis. As I said in a previous thread when the European and Japanese economies are back on their feet CRT can be modified to suit whatever purpose is necessary then, even phased out. but they have to keep the show on the road until that day comes.
Joined Mar 2005
7K Posts | 20+
Woody Creek
How long ago are you talking? I remember for two years after the 800cc formula was announced, Honda were linked with building a triple. The thought was that they could lop off two cylinders from the all-conquering RC211V V5 and get the weight advantage for Pedrosa.
Thats what I was thinking of. A twin cylinder monocoque ala the new Ducati, weighing in much lighter to make it competitive. The last of the 500's were supposed to have around 220hp. The chasis were light and handled it. Yet there is no way to even consider it with the 81mm bore restriction. So an 1199cc engine is no good for motogp. They would have to enlarge an 848 with an ultra long stroke. Tripple is no good. Not even a V5 to be seen. So we get stuck with run of the mill 4 cylinders all the same weight, same delta box chasis. I hope 2013 brings in massive changes.
Ducati Superbike 1199 Superquadrata have confirmed the rumors that the new Bologna bullet will do away with the tradition belt-driven camshaft and instead feature a gear-driven cam configuration.
Never used to be like that, years ago the Kawasaki 750gp bike had a monocoque chassis. we have had 6 cyclinder bikes, rotory engined bikes, twin wishbone hub centre steering bikes ect. Seems there scared to build true prototypes these days and who can blame them. Ducati failing to get the carbon frame to work will not encourage teams/manifactures to try something new. There is just to much money at stake to take the risk now.
Any updates on the strange Vyrus machine that was muted for Moto2 ? It dared to be different but we`ve heard nothing for a while.
The question isn't whether they'll be lapped by the factory bikes, but whether they can hang with the leased satellites. And that's as much a question of rider as machine.
Edwards will be the reference point, I think. I'm looking forward (excuse the pun) to him ushering in the new era.
I think we will see fast CRTs and moving-chicane CRTs. Barriers to entry are reduced so some people will almost certainly be clowning around next season. In Stoner's words, their ambitions will outweigh their talent.
Moto2 bikes make 20hp less than WSS, but Moto2 turns faster laps now. Superbikes are 1.5-2.5 seconds off of MotoGP pace. CRTs will be lighter, more-powerful, and Bridgestone shod. CRT competitiveness vs. 21L factory bikes is a guarantee, but the window is very small. If Dorna push through 24L-1000cc-16,000rpm for everyone, the CRTs will be dead in the water.
We will see some face-melting times in quali next season, imo. Those times will be race pace in 2013 if Dorna have their way.
I might be stupid, and admit to as much on occasion, but having read about the differences in the ECU's from factory SBK's, to the EVO class in BSB, it would seem logical that that would be the single greatest step in the right direction.
Might negate the 'factory' advantage altogether.
Might negate the 'factory' advantage altogether.
Agree with that BH. Give them 24L of fuel, control ECU and tires, and it's going to be down to chassis and rider differences. Except on the straights.
But (and this one is a big one), unlike carbon brakes, race-developed electronics trickle down to the street. That said, given the choice between good racing and some (expensive) R&D benefit, I'd go with good racing.
Edit: on second thought, you still have Honda's $900,000 seamless shift transmission to consider (which is why CRT regs state the transmission can also be claimed with the engine).
But (and this one is a big one), unlike carbon brakes, race-developed electronics trickle down to the street. That said, given the choice between good racing and some (expensive) R&D benefit, I'd go with good racing.
Edit: on second thought, you still have Honda's $900,000 seamless shift transmission to consider (which is why CRT regs state the transmission can also be claimed with the engine).
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