Can somebody clear this up for me regarding HRC engines

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 20 2008, 02:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Its a no brainer, because one of them is the 2nd best rider in the world right now and the other isn't close.
You assume here that the playing field is level. I have read enough of your posts to know that you are of the opinion that both have had the same access to machine and equipment. Your opinion has been that they were co-number one riders in 06 and start of 07. Despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, you still manage to believe the opposite. If you think that the 07 bike that was introduced in Qatar a year ago was to be equal for both riders to perform on a level playing field then we really have nothing to debate.

This is a prototype racing series, and as such, the machine places a large role in performance with the rider being responsible for the brunt of that success. Nonetheless, the inherent reality of prototype racing is that equipment does matter. I believe Povol touched on this, in that the series is not so much who is the better rider, but rather what manufacture build the better machine (“mousetrap”). I do NOT for a minute exclude the rider factor into this equation, but you and a few go on about how Peders is the better rider but refuse to disclose (or accept) the colossal evidence that Pedrosa, in fact, has been the sole strategy of designed and effort on the Honda Repsol Team.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 20 2008, 10:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>LOL You are amusing Jumkie.
There were no one talking about a complete new chassi before now. AFAIK nobody heard of it at all. The reports talked about the '08, NOT a new '08, but as soon as the news are out you make it into something else. Nikey wanted the '07 -period- Why the hell should HRC push something new on one that doesn't want it? Especially as they have a faster rider that are willing to try? Besides, very few doubt that Hayden now play the second fiddle so that not really up to discussion, but does that mean that he get's bad treatment? I don't think so. He got what he wanted, the '07. To me it looks like Pedrosa gave them some real feedback when he finally where back that enabled them to improve the chassi. The same can't be said about your guy who has been riding all winter, to busy riding to give any feed back.

And finally, even Honda have limits on their resources. Making a handbuildt frame, that might work or not, is not something you do in numbers. With time available they could probably make two of them but as it was there was only time for one. Who should get to try this one out? The slower one screaming for the '07 or the faster that wanted a new frame? Thy really had no choise did they?
Anyway, you've been complaining about Hayden being the developent rider bein ginnypig for HRC and Pedrosa. This time he got to ride proven equipment so what is the whining all about?
I'll keep my response short, (it hasn't mattered before when I've devastated your entire posts and shown you how grossly wrong you are, so I doubt it would help here). But I'll address a few of your erroneous contentions, in brief.

You need to stay current, as information has been coming out; perhaps you were not aware that a new chassis was made for Peders last minute. I can't really believe you didn't know (and therefore question why others have brought this up now with "nobody heard of it"). Yet, you later concede about the “new" chassis in the rest of your post (rather contradictory coming from somebody who isn't current; ah but it’s the same old Babel who likes too make statements before getting the actual facts--like imaginary “shredding of tires”). It's ok though Mattsteg pointed this out for you.


You say “Nicky wanted the 07 period”, but fail to address the report which stated that he did NOT have "access" to the latest generation 08 (new chassis and all); as well as, Hayden himself saying he “hopes to be offered” the "new" chassis for Jerez. I know you like to ignore stuff, but do you expect me to believe that you don't know the meaning of this statement? If you are hoping to be "offered" something "new" does this mean you have already turned down a offered that has NOT existed before? Let me dumb it down for you in a statement, he was NOT "offered" the new chassis! Yet you commandingly state, he was "screaming" for the 07. Did both riders have a real choice to distinguish from? Neither of the two wanted the older 08 chassis bike (no not even Peders). If he had, do you think they would have designed a NEW one? So you can apply your statement that Peders rejected the PRE-NEW-CHASSIS 08 too. So what did Honda do, they build Peders a new one. Then people like you can scream, well you see Hayden wanted the 07. Well then, did Hayden get an offer to have a "new" chassis build just for him? Well what did he say to answer this previous question---"he hopes to be offered the new chassis in Jerez." Its rather clear. (Just not to you or crvlvr)

Anyway, it seems odd to find you here on such a thread. After-all, we are NOT talking about TIRES—your favorite pass time topic. Hey, I’ll give you a tip, there are a few threads circulating on the topic of tires having issues; and close up pictures are presented as evidence. Why don’t you go and tell us how you see the tires have “shredded” and give us your expert eagle eyes explanation to enlighten us about this tire issue.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 20 2008, 11:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You assume here that the playing field is level. I have read enough of your posts to know that you are of the opinion that both have had the same access to machine and equipment. Your opinion has been that they were co-number one riders in 06 and start of 07. Despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, you still manage to believe the opposite. If you think that the 07 bike that was introduced in Qatar a year ago was to be equal for both riders to perform on a level playing field then we really have nothing to debate.

This is a prototype racing series, and as such, the machine places a large role in performance with the rider being responsible for the brunt of that success. Nonetheless, the inherent reality of prototype racing is that equipment does matter. I believe Povol touched on this, in that the series is not so much who is the better rider, but rather what manufacture build the better machine (“mousetrap”). I do NOT for a minute exclude the rider factor into this equation, but you and a few go on about how Peders is the better rider but refuse to disclose (or accept) the colossal evidence that Pedrosa, in fact, has been the sole strategy of designed and effort on the Honda Repsol Team.

I take your point about the un-eaven playing field because we all know the equipment does matter in gp racing, thats what makes it what it is. However the "overwhelming evidence" that Hayden is being sabotaged from the inside is mostly conspiracy theory and speculation which overwhelms you (and mylexicon) because you are so desperate to believe it. The evidence we use depends very much on the journalist whos opinion fits closest with our own rather than actual facts, and despite being a Hayden fan i take the opinion that honda aren't behaving in a way that differes too far from their recent history and the actions of any decent race team.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 21 2008, 01:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>XXX
I'll leave your usual insults alone this time. They are getting terribly repetetive but still no more than lies and insults. You should have learnd by now that your lies don't become truth just because your boring repets.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>You say “Nicky wanted the 07 period”, but fail to address the report which stated that he did NOT have "access" to the latest generation 08 (new chassis and all);
At a time the new frame were not even started upon. PI remember, that was a few weeks before it was made.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>as well as, Hayden himself saying he “hopes to be offered” the "new" chassis for Jerez.
As in a week after Pedrosa did well on the new frame Hayden didn't want?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I know you like to ignore stuff, but do you expect me to believe that you don't know the meaning of this statement? If you are hoping to be "offered" something "new" does this mean you have already turned down a offered that has NOT existed before? Let me dumb it down for you in a statement, he was NOT "offered" the new chassis! Yet you commandingly state, he was "screaming" for the 07. Did both riders have a real choice to distinguish from? Neither of the two wanted the older 08 chassis bike (no not even Peders). If he had, do you think they would have designed a NEW one? So you can apply your statement that Peders rejected the PRE-NEW-CHASSIS 08 too. So what did Honda do, they build Peders a new one. Then people like you can scream, well you see Hayden wanted the 07. Well then, did Hayden get an offer to have a "new" chassis build just for him? Well what did he say to answer this previous question---"he hopes to be offered the new chassis in Jerez." Its rather clear. (Just not to you or crvlvr)
All this could have made sense if it wasn't for the timeline Jumkie. You can't jump back and forth in time, and nither could hayden allthough I'm sure he would have liked to after seing pedrosas result.
But I'll give you one thing; considering the time available I doubt Hayden would have seen a new frame at Quatar.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Anyway, it seems odd to find you here on such a thread. After-all, we are NOT talking about TIRES—your favorite pass time topic. Hey, I’ll give you a tip, there are a few threads circulating on the topic of tires having issues; and close up pictures are presented as evidence.
I guess You're talking about the tread where YOU see insects or what ever? I really don't think you want me to enter there.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Why don’t you go and tell us how you see the tires have “shredded” and give us your expert eagle eyes explanation to enlighten us about this tire issue.
I might not have been the hottest racer around but at least I've been there. I'm far from any tire expert but I share my judgment based on the knowledge I've got. I've shredded a few tires my self and I've discussed tire wear and setup with a few very knowlegeable people around in europe. You would be surpriced to see how easy it is to get people talking when you're inside the paddok with a crew pass in WSBK. Even more so if you have them for dinner in your hospitality tent.
I don't know where you come from Jumkie, but unless you have some serious inside information on tires you really should stop mocking others for sharing their knowledge and judgement as best they can, based on the facts available at the time.

While I am an enthusiast that often jump the conclustions based on what I know so far (far to little),
your favorite seems to come by a week or two after the race, when all the evidence are on the table and "judge" people for what they said at race time based on that. Sure, we risk to get it a bit wrong but I rather be wrong a hundred times than being youre kind of "besser wisser".
It's up to you if we continue with your obsession of tires or if we continue with this years events.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 20 2008, 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'll leave your usual insults alone this time. They are getting terribly repetetive but still no more than lies and insults. You should have learnd by now that your lies don't become truth just because your boring repets.

Oh brother. Do I need to go back a remind you of our exchanges, including your colorful ones? I can remember one that comes to mind, oh lets see, how did you put it...oh yeah, you said to me in a well thought out reply: ".... you!" Wow, YOU sure stuck to the issues. And now you are gonna take the same weak cry for foul that others have done (you’re note alone, others have taken this feable chicken-.... and hypocritical route). So now you're gonna get all sensitive? Ah, I see your frustrations for your weak debating skills continue to get the best of you? Lets not go crying foul now, shall we? Grow some skin or don't bother debating <u>me</u> if you can't handle the heat.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 20 2008, 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>At a time the new frame were not even started upon. PI remember, that was a few weeks before it was made.

What exactly is your point here? I know the "frame" wasn't started yet, I just told you this (apparently you were not aware of this). The "new" frame/chassis was built literally days before the race. (Now I’m repeating myself, as if this will help you understand, my bad).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 20 2008, 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As in a week after Pedrosa did well on the new frame Hayden didn't want?

Did you miss the part that says, it was NOT “offered”? (I really can't make it any easier to understand.)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 20 2008, 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>All this could have made sense if it wasn't for the timeline Jumkie. You can't jump back and forth in time, and nither could hayden allthough I'm sure he would have liked to after seing pedrosas result.

I know it must be difficult for you to keep chronological events straight. But you can go back and read it over and over and over, as many times as you want so you can finally get it straight in your mind. (Takes notes and use numbers and matching lines, it seemed to help me back in school).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 20 2008, 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But I'll give you one thing; considering the time available I doubt Hayden would have seen a new frame at Quatar.


That's nice. Why would you doubt he would have seen a new frame? Perhaps maybe because it was NOT offered to him? You make my point here. Being that there was a time constraint, they decide to pick one of the two riders to offer building a new chassis. As much as you have already conceded that he is the number two rider, I agree with you. But I don't agree with your reasons he is the number two. You say because he is slower, I say because he is not favored, therefore, he given second-rate equipment to his teammate (and this no less is what you base your reasoning for him being slower). Has this changed any since they became teammates? I don't think so. Like a told crvlvr, we can disagree as to an opinion, that’s fine. I can live with that. But please, let us include full discloser as to some pertinent reasons and information for why this may be the reality.

D'oh gee Junkie don't you get it ...... it wouldn't matter if Hayden was on the best bike in the universe .... he's not going to do much better.

You want to villainise Honda or something else .... just like the Rossi fans do ...... but you have to look at it without the sparles/feathers/ and lace glasses on ....


The guy has gone off .... he needs to fix that first.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 20 2008, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>D'oh gee Junkie don't you get it ...... it wouldn't matter if Hayden was on the best bike in the universe .... he's not going to do much better.

You want to villainise Honda or something else .... just like the Rossi fans do ...... but you have to look at it without the sparles/feathers/ and lace glasses on ....


The guy has gone off .... he needs to fix that first.
Interesting coming from a guy who thinks Stoner walks on water. Oh how we have forgotten the tough times he had keeping the shinny side up. I recall him (Stoner) making a case that he was not given the proper opportunity to succeed on the Honda, but he took it a very striking step further in his characterization--hell, he even went a step further and said they sabotaged him. So who really has "villainise Honda"? How ironic! Very unlike what Hayden has said about Honda here. Maybe your idol had a point, unlike you. If you wish to debate it we can go all day, I'm up for it. But get a logic book out and read through it. Otherwise, stick to what you know best, praising Stoner.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 21 2008, 02:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Interesting coming from a guy who thinks Stoner walks on water. Oh how we have forgotten the tough times he had keeping the shinny side up. I recall him (Stoner) making a case that he was not given the proper opportunity to succeed on the Honda, but he took it a very striking step further in his characterization--hell, he even went a step further and said they sabotaged him. So who really has "villainise Honda"? How ironic! Very unlike what Hayden has said about Honda here. Maybe your idol had a point, unlike you. If you wish to debate it we can go all day, I'm up for it. But get a logic book out and read through it. Otherwise, stick to what you know best, praising Stoner.

What you are saying in escence is that had Hayden ridden Pedrosa's bike at Qatar ..... he would have performed as well as Pedrosa ......do you believe this ..... I don't.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 20 2008, 10:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What you are saying in escence is that had Hayden ridden Pedrosa's bike at Qatar ..... he would have performed as well as Pedrosa ......do you believe this ..... I don't.

Nah man. I'm not saying that. Of course not, I agree with you on this point. It’s like asking me if he rode Stoner's bike would Hayden have won, no. Why, well because it was not designed and set to his specification. What I have been trying to say in so many words is Honda was willing to make Pedrosa a "new" chassis, and it seems to have worked. But they were not willing to do the same for Hayden. This is my protest. Ok, I accept they don't have all the time and resources. But surely they did while the testing was going on months back, yet they stubbornly made few changes. At this point they were unwilling to scrap what they had put forward, and faced with another potentially embarrassing start to the season; they bring previous and present generation bikes, and at the 11th hour even go so far as to design a NEW chassis (the very thing both had complained about, but only one got). Lets not forget, bother riders had experience problems here. But one only got it addressed to his own specification it seems. (At least this is what the reports have led me to believe.)

The argument has been made that Hayden perhaps didn’t earn the right to have been crafted a “new” chassis. My point is, well how could he have if the entire push and design since we have been on 800s has been predominantly for Peders? Perhaps you missed my post race comments, but I do blame Hayden for not performing and adapting to the 800s. But man, when you start to read through these articles that begin to leak out the reality then a person like me begins to question his opportunity to really show what he’s got. So much so, that it compelled Hayden fans like Lex to make a thread titled “My Apology to Nicky”. That is to say, yeah, we are willing to blame him for poor performance as a rider; but in lue of new information, then come out reports that he is relegated to the B class of equipment, then our attention natually turns to this. Sure you guys try to turn it around and say, “he chose the lesser equipment” but did he really? When its not offered to you, can your really “turn it down”?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 21 2008, 04:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nah man. I'm not saying that. Of course not, I agree with you on this point. It’s like asking me if he rode Stoner's bike would Hayden have won, no. Why, well because it was not designed and set to his specification. What I have been trying to say in so many words is Honda was willing to make Pedrosa a "new" chassis, and it seems to have worked. But they were not willing to do the same for Hayden. This is my protest. Ok, I accept they don't have all the time and resources. But surely they did while the testing was going on months back, yet they stubbornly made few changes. At this point they were unwilling to scrap what they had put forward, and faced with another potentially embarrassing start to the season; they bring previous and present generation bikes, and at the 11th hour even go so far as to design a NEW chassis (the very thing both had complained about, but only one got). Lets not forget, bother riders had experience problems here. But one only got it addressed to his own specification it seems. (At least this is what the reports have led me to believe.)

The argument has been made that Hayden perhaps didn’t earn the right to have been crafted a “new” chassis. My point is, well how could he have if the entire push and design since we have been on 800s has been predominantly for Peders? Perhaps you missed my post race comments, but I do blame Hayden for not performing and adapting to the 800s. But man, when you start to read through these articles that begin to leak out the reality then a person like me begins to question his opportunity to really show what he’s got. So much so, that it compelled Hayden fans like Lex to make a thread titled “My Apology to Nicky”. That is to say, yeah, we are willing to blame him for poor performance as a rider; but in lue of new information, then come out reports that he is relegated to the B class of equipment, then our attention natually turns to this. Sure you guys try to turn it around and say, “he chose the lesser equipment” but did he really? When its not offered to you, can your really “turn it down”?

Well I still don't get why Hayden did not get the new chasis either, if he wanted it ...... they aren't a huge part and would have taken minimal time to build ...... logic would seem to indicate that indeed it was as the early reports were saying .... Hayden thought they had more chance on the 07 frame ..... which again seems odd ..... because I remembered all the Hayden fans on here saying the 07 frame was too short for him ....... just seems a never ending stream of "its never right for me". That to me indicates Hayden has a problem he needs to iron out, thats assuming he still has it in him. As you know I am overtly aware that riders peak then wane.

Naturally his performance is not helped by satellite team Hondas beating him either.

Also did Hayden try out the new 08 engine at PI ( the stealth smoke bomb one ) .... or am I dreaming?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 20 2008, 11:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well I still don't get why Hayden did not get the new chasis either, if he wanted it ...... they aren't a huge part and would have taken minimal time to build ...... logic would seem to indicate that indeed it was as the early reports were saying .... Hayden thought they had more chance on the 07 frame ..... which again seems odd ..... because I remembered all the Hayden fans on here saying the 07 frame was too short for him ....... just seems a never ending stream of "its never right for me". That to me indicates Hayden has a problem he needs to iron out, thats assuming he still has it in him. As you know I am overtly aware that riders peak then wane.

Naturally his performance is not helped by satellite team Hondas beating him either.

Also did Hayden try out the new 08 engine at PI ( the stealth smoke bomb one ) .... or am I dreaming?
Well you make some valid points here, especially the two that he got beat by the satellites and that he has a problem he needs to iron out. I'll address this below. But first off, let me say that the "small" frame you speak of was the first generation 07 (the bike that was introduced at Qatar last year). The one at PI was different and better suited, obviously it was, if you recall, he was hanging with the venerable Stoner until the engine took a dump. Well it’s this bike that he reverted to as the choice between that one or the 08 spec bikes they were testing. You see, the 08 spec bikes during testing were not coming along well for neither Pedrosa nor Hayden (you may recall they were pitiful during testing, the only thing that masked this problem was the great Q tire sessions that made it seem like he was up on lap time order).

So naturally faced with the prospect of taking the 08 spec that was performing worse that the 07 spec, he unwittingly "chose" the 07. But then comes the Qatar race and we see Honda pulling out all the stops and brings 07, 08, and a newer generation 08 (new chassis). This to me leads me to believe there is still disarray in development (at very least it was a bandage that worked out great for Peders and Honda, I think they were even suprised, if you doubt this just look at how the podium has been characterized in the media as an "unlikely" podium). Which leads me to the fact he got beat by the satellites. He admits this out right, and the quote he offers is "we got beat bad." Ok, I'd call that taking responsibility, right?

As to your last valid point about him needing to get something "ironed out". I totally agree. Unfortunately, my opinion is he may need a move like the more assertive Stoner did in going to another brand. I am aware that Stoner was Ducati's third choice. But Stoner had the presence of mind to grab a hold of the opportunity (though what did he have to lose; UNLIKE Hayden & Meladri who turned it down, though I made a case why Hayden would have stuck with Honda; remember at what moment the contract was negotiated—keep in mind, while he was the championship points leader, 3/4 of the season in, and near his home track round of Laguna, what would you have done?.)

So to address your point, this is what I think Hayden needs to do. Here is the conspiracy theory party of my rant: As long as Dorna, Repsol, Puig, and Pedrosa remain Spanish, Hayden will not be treated favorably or equal to his teammate, and therefore he must move on to where a team will make him their true #1 rider (if anything, I think we both agree that there are strong politics at play in this sport). Look, he did win a title (sure we can debate just how great or lack luster it was an achievement) but you don't get to be a champ if you suck. It seems to me, that at very least he is in the top five of riders, if you look at the other top riders, all of them are no holds bar #1 riders on their teams (Stoner, Rossi, Pedrosa, and now Lorenzo) . I ask you, has there ever been a thread, report, article, or a hint that this short list of riders have ever NOT enjoyed the full effort and support of their respective teams? Has it ever been questioned that perhaps they are second fiddle? Odd, isn't it?

ok lets look at it from another angle ....... where are the benefits to Honda?

...... if they favour .... and not Hayden .... US market drops ..... worldwide it looks like Honda are crap ...... can't see its Honda doing it ..... there's no benefit.

who benefits from such a conspiracy?

Who has control in that team? Repsol or Honda?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 21 2008, 03:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh brother. Do I need to go back a remind you of our exchanges, including your colorful ones? I can remember one that comes to mind, oh lets see, how did you put it...oh yeah, you said to me in a well thought out reply: ".... you!" Wow, YOU sure stuck to the issues. And now you are gonna take the same weak cry for foul that others have done (you’re note alone, others have taken this feable chicken-.... and hypocritical route). So now you're gonna get all sensitive? Ah, I see your frustrations for your weak debating skills continue to get the best of you? Lets not go crying foul now, shall we? Grow some skin or don't bother debating <u>me</u> if you can't handle the heat.

Who need to grow some skin?

Read again Jumkie, there's no crying just another kick in your but as you go on with an endless nagging about me and tires. Regarding the ".... you" you know exactly why and boy did you deserve it. This time it was just a reminder that for every X times you repeat that lie you will get another ".... you" or other suitable reply. I just can't be bothered with it every ....... time you repeat it, and I suspect, neither can the rest of the members. You keep up your girly talk with badly hidden references, but just now and then I'll be here to remind you and it will be in clear speech.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>What exactly is your point here? I know the "frame" wasn't started yet, I just told you this (apparently you were not aware of this). The "new" frame/chassis was built literally days before the race. (Now I’m repeating myself, as if this will help you understand, my bad).
YOU told me? LOL
Anyway, my point is that Hayden had no patience nor any confidence in Honda to wait for an improved frame. He made that clear by demanding the '07. And by doning that he effectivly excluded himself from being the preferred rider, or "ginnypig" as YOU call it WHEN it doesn't work. That process started at PI.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Did you miss the part that says, it was NOT “offered”? (I really can't make it any easier to understand.)
And that was where?
I got the part where he clearly stated that "he wanted the '07".
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>That's nice. Why would you doubt he would have seen a new frame? Perhaps maybe because it was NOT offered to him? You make my point here.
So, we agree then? Nothing in the world can change the fact that pedrosa took victories home last year and ended second, while last year defending champion didn't bring back anything. Of course Pedrosa is the perferred rider, but as it looks to me he is also doing a much better job with Honda, trusting them to supply him the good stuff, while Hayden literaly are riding around in circles.

Mean while you're kicking a dead horse. Wheter HRC made Pedrose the faster or if he allways were the faster doesn't really matter any more. That was last years fight and Hayden lost that by a margin. Pedrosa is the one creating results. This year Hayden IS playing the second fiddle nothing will change that unless he himself pick himself together and show results.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Being that there was a time constraint, they decide to pick one of the two riders to offer building a new chassis. As much as you have already conceded that he is the number two rider, I agree with you. But I don't agree with your reasons he is the number two. You say because he is slower, I say because he is not favored, therefore, he given second-rate equipment to his teammate (and this no less is what you base your reasoning for him being slower). Has this changed any since they became teammates? I don't think so.
That's your oppinion, but I have to fully agree with Tom here. There is now way in hell that HRC intentionally try to .... up Hyadens career. They made a few misstakes with the bike design last year, and while correcting them this year they made some others this year, but they recived very much similar equipment last year, but I suspect there will be a clearer pecking order this year, but even then Hayden will be on competetive equipment unless he starts to get regulary beaten by Dovi. That way he might drop down bellow Dovi halfway through the season. Nothing new there, just (HRC) business as usual.

that proves they admitt a mistake and they make the exterior larger -> Even when Haydens star is dropping he gets heard by HRC, how is that for a sabbotage? I havn't heard Pedrosa complain about last years size, have you?

I think it is reasonable to consider Nicky extremely lucky to have a place in the sports best team for 6 years despite only returning 3 race wins. If you are the type whos into politics and conspiracy theories then you should ask exactly how a superbike champion got and kept that job for so long because many will argue that it has been a marketing decision.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 21 2008, 05:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think it is reasonable to consider Nicky extremely lucky to have a place in the sports best team for 6 years despite only returning 3 race wins. If you are the type whos into politics and conspiracy theories then you should ask exactly how a superbike champion got and kept that job for so long because many will argue that it has been a marketing decision.

Actually he did exactly what Honda wanted him to do, and that was take away the Championship away from Rossi. Lets break it down even further, he won a championship. This is more than a lot of the riders in the paddock can say. I think that its pretty obvious how and why he kept his seat there at Honda. I agree with part of your point, that he is extremely lucky to have the seat that he has. But I would like to add that all the riders are lucky to be in the position that they are in.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Mar 21 2008, 03:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually he did exactly what Honda wanted him to do, and that was take away the Championship away from Rossi. Lets break it down even further, he won a championship. This is more than a lot of the riders in the paddock can say. I think that its pretty obvious how and why he kept his seat there at Honda. I agree with part of your point, that he is extremely lucky to have the seat that he has. But I would like to add that all the riders are lucky to be in the position that they are in.

I agree with you, i was simply suggesting another angle for the people who are looking for conspiracy theories and politics wherever they can. I believe Nicky was given a contract on merrit and did what was required of him, i also think the extension of his contract was justified.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 21 2008, 06:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think it is reasonable to consider Nicky extremely lucky to have a place in the sports best team for 6 years despite only returning 3 race wins. If you are the type whos into politics and conspiracy theories then you should ask exactly how a superbike champion got and kept that job for so long because many will argue that it has been a marketing decision.

Tom, I’m a little confused about these two posts. In the first one you say Hayden is “lucky” to have been elevated to a factory Honda team (presumably the best in the paddock, though only one title has been produced in that time(perhaps this is only Hayden's fault), and the last two years would seem to suggest the contrary that they are the "best" team). In those six years, Hayden improved and finished higher in points standing every year until he actual won a world title. It was only after Honda’s development and design turned to the attentions of Pedrosa did things take a turn for the worse as far as Hayden’s career goes. (Unless of course you still think that the 800 they introduced at Qatar in 07 was designed around Hayden, like I said, if this is the case, the debate ends here). If not, then I think you have oversimplified his success as you say he “only” returned 3 race wins. Perhaps you forgot about the 1 world title backed up with a years worth of podiums. However, even then, how do you reconcile the fact that he is the only Honda title winner (runner up first, then champ) among a national series dubbed a “Suzuki cup”? And so now we are going to say he was “lucky” to get a factory Honda effort because perhaps he didn’t deserve it? Perhaps he didn’t merit a factory ride with the brand he’s been loyal with (to a fault) nonetheless, he has produced a title for them amongst a sea of Suzuki titles in the last ten years in the AMA. As if that may have been a “fluke” he backs it up with a world title?

From what I’ve read of your posts, you have little to no respect or appreciation for “superbike” champions and stubbornly cling to the idea that only deserving riders come from the 250 series. Yet, you have disagreed with me that the 250s are a “feeder” series. So it seems you have it both ways. However, Hayden was a superbike champion and a MotoGP champion. Please give me the list of those who have achieved such a feat here. “Lucky” to be on a Honda for marketing? Wow. So YOU think its "<span style="color:#FF0000reasonable to consider Nicky extremely lucky" to be on the "best team...despite"... (yeah, those are YOUR words. Did you realize you pressed the send button when you wrote that?) What is "reasonable" about thinking this, for anyboby?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 21 2008, 08:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree with you, I was simply suggesting another angle for the people who are looking for conspiracy theories and politics wherever they can. I believe Nicky was given a contract on merrit and did what was required of him, i also think the extension of his contract was justified.

You see Tom; this is where I become confused. I know there is sarcasm and liberties with narrative prose in writing, but frankly, these two posts seem a bit schizophrenic. (No offense). Now I agree with your second post, and it would seem to refute your first post. So I have decided to address both here.

If you think its “reasonable” for people to question the merits of his factory ride for marketing purposes; then it seems to me it would be “reasonable” to question why he seems to have forgotten how to ride a motorcycle after 07. Up to that point (07), his improvement and success seems to indicate that he was a pretty good rider. I suppose you consider it fishing for “conspiracy theory” to question, <u>why</u> the big change in performance. That’s what this thread has been much about; that it is “reasonable” to question this dramatic downturn in performance without your characterization of it only being a “conspiracy theory”. Like I said, nobody is saying he is getting screwed on purpose, and no they are NOT sabotaging him, but at very least, he is not equal to his teammate. I think this is a “reasonable” protest by his fans.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 21 2008, 05:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You see Tom; this is where I become confused. I know there is sarcasm and liberties with narrative prose in writing, but frankly, these two posts seem a bit schizophrenic. (No offense). Now I agree with your second post, and it would seem to refute your first post. So I have decided to address both here.

If you think its “reasonable” for people to question the merits of his factory ride for marketing purposes; then it seems to me it would be “reasonable” to question why he seems to have forgotten how to ride a motorcycle after 07. Up to that point (07), his improvement and success seems to indicate that he was a pretty good rider. I suppose you consider it fishing for “conspiracy theory” to question, <u>why</u> the big change in performance. That’s what this thread has been much about; that it is “reasonable” to question this dramatic downturn in performance without your characterization of it only being a “conspiracy theory”. Like I said, nobody is saying he is getting screwed on purpose, and no they are NOT sabotaging him, but at very least, he is not equal to his teammate. I think this is a “reasonable” protest by his fans.

I may not have made it clear but that first point is not actually my opinion, just an alternative view that might fit in with your take on things regarding politics, dodgy dealings and riders having jobs they don't deserve. The second point is how i actually feel about the situation, so its nice to see we agree on the fundamentals. It seems clear that our disagreement in this instance is that you believe Nicky's poor performance is a result of a power shift in the team, wheras i believe the power shift in the team is a result of Nicky's downturn in performance. Once again minor details and speculation is tearing us appart

peace

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 21 2008, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It seems clear that our disagreement in this instance is that you believe Nicky's poor performance is a result of a power shift in the team, wheras i believe the power shift in the team is a result of Nicky's downturn in performance. Once again minor details and speculation is tearing us appart
Ah, yes. Well, it seems again our passions for our opinions are to be buffered (checked) by "reasonable" perspective.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 21 2008, 05:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Read again Jumkie, there's no crying just another kick in your but
That's nice Babel. I thought you were getting soft with your feeble "cry for help." But it’s nice to know you were "secretly" insulting me. I can live with that. Let the banter continue old sparing partner.

Please forgive me for not responding to the rest of your worthless comments. If you really crave a rebuttal, just scroll up to my other posts; I'm pretty sure I answered all your question and comments at least thrice.