<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 15 2008, 12:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Neil Spalding was on Eurosport saying that the new engine has the old heads fitted until the pneumatics work. I definitely trust his knowlege above anyone elses until i see more evidence.
I take it all back then, Spalding knows his stuff. Thanks Tom. It seems strange all the same, like they're hedging they're bets.
Can somebody clear this up for me regarding HRC engines
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Hayden will be back on the '08 RCV, albeit still powered by last year's spring-valve engine, for round two of the 2008 world championship.
crash.net link
The above statement is from the above link via crash.net. lol, this makes it even more confusing!!
crash.net link
The above statement is from the above link via crash.net. lol, this makes it even more confusing!!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 14 2008, 04:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sarto IS wrong, the '07 engine doesn't fit, but the heads do just like Tom said.As I pointed out earlier, discussion on wether it was the block or the head are irrelevant.
I think everyone agrees that the main difference (atleast the one we are concerned about) lies in the valvetrain. Springs (2007) v. pneumatic (2008)..
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 17 2008, 07:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As I pointed out earlier, discussion on wether it was the block or the head are irrelevant.
I think everyone agrees that the main difference (atleast the one we are concerned about) lies in the valvetrain. Springs (2007) v. pneumatic (2008)..
I don't know what differences there is between the two, but I guess youre right that the sigle most important difference is the valve system.
But then again I do think an important important thing is that that they were suposed to have 4 '08 bikes available at Quatar. If Pedrosa used Haydens bike it was only out of convenience rather than taking it away from Hayden, as they had two more '08 available, and another set of '07 heads available from the '07 bikes. So Hayden racing the '07 was hardly anything but his own choise. A choise he had to fight hard for, just as it was reported.
I don't know what differences there is between the two, but I guess youre right that the sigle most important difference is the valve system.
But then again I do think an important important thing is that that they were suposed to have 4 '08 bikes available at Quatar. If Pedrosa used Haydens bike it was only out of convenience rather than taking it away from Hayden, as they had two more '08 available, and another set of '07 heads available from the '07 bikes. So Hayden racing the '07 was hardly anything but his own choise. A choise he had to fight hard for, just as it was reported.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 18 2008, 12:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>. So Hayden racing the '07 was hardly anything but his own choise. A choise he had to fight hard for, just as it was reported.I could not agree more. He even said,
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>"At one point at the test we were last and second last and that isn’t good. I guess it stung Honda but give them credit.
“It couldn’t have been easy to explain to the bosses that they wanted to roll out last year’s bike.
“I first asked about switching to the old bike after Phillip Island but they really didn’t want to take that step back.
Sometimes though you got to go back to move forward,..."
Now, this was reported on March 6, 4-5 days before Dani crashed his 2008 bike.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>"At one point at the test we were last and second last and that isn’t good. I guess it stung Honda but give them credit.
“It couldn’t have been easy to explain to the bosses that they wanted to roll out last year’s bike.
“I first asked about switching to the old bike after Phillip Island but they really didn’t want to take that step back.
Sometimes though you got to go back to move forward,..."
Now, this was reported on March 6, 4-5 days before Dani crashed his 2008 bike.
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Well this kinda proves that Hayden went for the older bike of his own volition!! .....
http://www.crash.net/motorsport/motogp/new...an_at_indy.html
now how does he expect to compete on that!!
http://www.crash.net/motorsport/motogp/new...an_at_indy.html
now how does he expect to compete on that!!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 19 2008, 04:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well this kinda proves that Hayden went for the older bike of his own volition!! .....
http://www.crash.net/motorsport/motogp/new...an_at_indy.html
now how does he expect to compete on that!!
As quoted today from MCN
Article
Nicky Hayden is hoping he will get his hands on a new spec chassis for the Spanish MotoGP in Jerez later this month after his nightmare start to 2008.
The American was woefully off the pace in the recent historic Qatar night race as he opted to switch back to a complete version of Honda’s 2007 factory RC212V.
The gamble backfired as he struggled home in 10th place, while Repsol team-mate Dani Pedrosa cast aside his pre-season issues to claim third.
The Spaniard was using a new chassis that HRC engineers had hurriedly built in less than a week and now Nicky Hayden is hoping the improved frame will be offered to him in Jerez.
Nicky Hayden said: “He (Dani) seems to think it’s a big step forward, so hopefully I can get one of those for Jerez.
“They just made it between the test and the first race in Qatar so I’d like to try it.”
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Edit to clear things up a little
Yeah so he did switch back to the 07 because both he and Dani were sucking ass on the 08 bike. BUT then Honda whipped something up for Dani, literally right before the race, that "appears" Nikki did not have access too.
The more the reports are coming out the more its looking like Nikki is getting screwed, sorry Barry but you can keep dragging up the old reports but the new reports are pointing more towards this favortism.
http://www.crash.net/motorsport/motogp/new...an_at_indy.html
now how does he expect to compete on that!!
As quoted today from MCN
Article
Nicky Hayden is hoping he will get his hands on a new spec chassis for the Spanish MotoGP in Jerez later this month after his nightmare start to 2008.
The American was woefully off the pace in the recent historic Qatar night race as he opted to switch back to a complete version of Honda’s 2007 factory RC212V.
The gamble backfired as he struggled home in 10th place, while Repsol team-mate Dani Pedrosa cast aside his pre-season issues to claim third.
The Spaniard was using a new chassis that HRC engineers had hurriedly built in less than a week and now Nicky Hayden is hoping the improved frame will be offered to him in Jerez.
Nicky Hayden said: “He (Dani) seems to think it’s a big step forward, so hopefully I can get one of those for Jerez.
“They just made it between the test and the first race in Qatar so I’d like to try it.”
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Edit to clear things up a little
Yeah so he did switch back to the 07 because both he and Dani were sucking ass on the 08 bike. BUT then Honda whipped something up for Dani, literally right before the race, that "appears" Nikki did not have access too.
The more the reports are coming out the more its looking like Nikki is getting screwed, sorry Barry but you can keep dragging up the old reports but the new reports are pointing more towards this favortism.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 20 2008, 09:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But, as we all know, what works for Dani does not usually work for Nicky.
Folk seem to be forgetting that lately .... and sadly part of the reason for that is I think Hayden has slipped so far back the even he is both confused and has lost all confidence. I can't see how he can recover from the position he is in.
Folk seem to be forgetting that lately .... and sadly part of the reason for that is I think Hayden has slipped so far back the even he is both confused and has lost all confidence. I can't see how he can recover from the position he is in.
this is what Dani had to say after his race:
T<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>onight's result is unbelievable, we didn't expect this, so I'm very happy. Seven days ago I was almost last in the tests here but my team have worked really hard, bringing both 2007 and 2008 bikes here and making many changes - they've been fantastic. For the first time I understand the meaning and the legend of HRC and I'm so proud to be part of this. They gave me a competitive bike and the Michelin tyres worked really well and I did my best on track but without them I couldn't have been able to make it. I couldn't stay with Lorenzo and Stoner, so we still have to improve but since last week's tests we've made an incredible step forward. Now we have a few weeks to recover full strength in the hand before Jerez.
If the earlier quote about a new chassis is true, then what BarryMachine says might be true. Nicky jus gave up on the 2008 chassis. But Pedrosa was willing to try something new that Honda built from scratch in ONE WEEK. Either Pedrosa is able to give HRC specific feedback on what was wrong with the previous chassis so that they could improve it, or as some (and will continue to) claim, HRC did this interntionally to scre Hayden.
Also, it appears that the 2007 (spring valve) engine can actually keep up with Yamaha's new pneumatic valve engine.
T<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>onight's result is unbelievable, we didn't expect this, so I'm very happy. Seven days ago I was almost last in the tests here but my team have worked really hard, bringing both 2007 and 2008 bikes here and making many changes - they've been fantastic. For the first time I understand the meaning and the legend of HRC and I'm so proud to be part of this. They gave me a competitive bike and the Michelin tyres worked really well and I did my best on track but without them I couldn't have been able to make it. I couldn't stay with Lorenzo and Stoner, so we still have to improve but since last week's tests we've made an incredible step forward. Now we have a few weeks to recover full strength in the hand before Jerez.
If the earlier quote about a new chassis is true, then what BarryMachine says might be true. Nicky jus gave up on the 2008 chassis. But Pedrosa was willing to try something new that Honda built from scratch in ONE WEEK. Either Pedrosa is able to give HRC specific feedback on what was wrong with the previous chassis so that they could improve it, or as some (and will continue to) claim, HRC did this interntionally to scre Hayden.
Also, it appears that the 2007 (spring valve) engine can actually keep up with Yamaha's new pneumatic valve engine.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 19 2008, 04:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If the earlier quote about a new chassis is true, then what BarryMachine says might be true. Nicky jus gave up on the 2008 chassis. But <u>Pedrosa was willing to try something new</u> that Honda built from scratch in ONE WEEK. Either Pedrosa is able to give HRC specific feedback on what was wrong with the previous chassis so that they could improve it, or as some (and will continue to) claim, HRC did this interntionally to scre Hayden.
Also, it appears that the 2007 (spring valve) engine can actually keep up with Yamaha's new pneumatic valve engine.
I have seen people ignore facts many times on this site, but recently, I haven’t seen it done to the degree that you have insisted on ignoring them. I have had plenty of exchanges with you about this very issue, shown you quotes, given you explanations, pointed out specific words; yet you still write as if there has been zero evidence and information to the contrary of what you insist on putting forward in your posts. I understand we can have a difference in opinion, but how in the world can you ignore a difference in facts?
I had all but given up on the previous exchanges, but then again I see you still insist. Are we to believe that you can only read the reports that support your view but suddenly the reports contrary to your view become gibberish?
I already did this before, but pay attention to the bolded words below:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>The Spaniard was using a new chassis that HRC engineers had hurriedly built in less than a week and now Nicky Hayden is hoping the improved frame will be offered to him in Jerez.
Nicky Hayden said: “He (Dani) seems to think it’s a big step forward, so hopefully I can get one of those for Jerez.
“They just made it between the test and the first race in Qatar so I’d like to try it.”
to clear things up a little
Yeah so he did switch back to the 07 because both he and Dani were sucking ass on the 08 bike. BUT then Honda whipped something up for Dani, literally right before the race, that "appears" Nikki did not have access too.
Sackwack has pretty much summed it up. But I’ll dumb it down in simpler terms. (Though I already have in another thread).
In summary: Hayden asked Honda to switch back after PI, since both Peders and Hayden where looking terrible on the 08, and the new engine was not up to par (Hayden asked for the 07 because that’s the one he had enjoyed some success, that is before the engine blew at PI). Honda refused! Honda finally at last minute allows Hayden to use the 07 spec bike before Qatar (they ship it from Japan, literally days before). (This is before we learned that Honda built something at last minute for Pedrosa). Reports surface at the time that Hayden did NOT have “access” to the 08 bike). Now we find out that Honda built a new chassis for Peder, last minute. Does it say they built one for Hayden last minute? No. So then the reports about not having “access” seem to be validated. And therefore, the treatment as second fiddle again are corroborate by evidence, reports, and self-admission; something that you continue to argue against despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
But of course, we are just suppose to ignore these documented sequence of events and believe your version, right?
We've been over this before, but incase you forgot:
Also, it appears that the 2007 (spring valve) engine can actually keep up with Yamaha's new pneumatic valve engine.
I have seen people ignore facts many times on this site, but recently, I haven’t seen it done to the degree that you have insisted on ignoring them. I have had plenty of exchanges with you about this very issue, shown you quotes, given you explanations, pointed out specific words; yet you still write as if there has been zero evidence and information to the contrary of what you insist on putting forward in your posts. I understand we can have a difference in opinion, but how in the world can you ignore a difference in facts?
I had all but given up on the previous exchanges, but then again I see you still insist. Are we to believe that you can only read the reports that support your view but suddenly the reports contrary to your view become gibberish?
I already did this before, but pay attention to the bolded words below:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>The Spaniard was using a new chassis that HRC engineers had hurriedly built in less than a week and now Nicky Hayden is hoping the improved frame will be offered to him in Jerez.
Nicky Hayden said: “He (Dani) seems to think it’s a big step forward, so hopefully I can get one of those for Jerez.
“They just made it between the test and the first race in Qatar so I’d like to try it.”
to clear things up a little
Yeah so he did switch back to the 07 because both he and Dani were sucking ass on the 08 bike. BUT then Honda whipped something up for Dani, literally right before the race, that "appears" Nikki did not have access too.
Sackwack has pretty much summed it up. But I’ll dumb it down in simpler terms. (Though I already have in another thread).
In summary: Hayden asked Honda to switch back after PI, since both Peders and Hayden where looking terrible on the 08, and the new engine was not up to par (Hayden asked for the 07 because that’s the one he had enjoyed some success, that is before the engine blew at PI). Honda refused! Honda finally at last minute allows Hayden to use the 07 spec bike before Qatar (they ship it from Japan, literally days before). (This is before we learned that Honda built something at last minute for Pedrosa). Reports surface at the time that Hayden did NOT have “access” to the 08 bike). Now we find out that Honda built a new chassis for Peder, last minute. Does it say they built one for Hayden last minute? No. So then the reports about not having “access” seem to be validated. And therefore, the treatment as second fiddle again are corroborate by evidence, reports, and self-admission; something that you continue to argue against despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
But of course, we are just suppose to ignore these documented sequence of events and believe your version, right?
We've been over this before, but incase you forgot:
Jumkie, you have a favorite rider (per your profile ) Nicky. I don't... who do you think is going to be objective?
You seem to suggest the HRC bends over backwards to screw Hayden. That is sheer Nonsense. You have not provided one shred of evidence other than reports (without any specific quotes or sources) that support your position.
Even if your theory, that Nicky is getting screwed by HRC, is true. Then why did Nicky renew his contract with HRC?
Let's assume the report about the new chassis is true. Let me ask you this.. If you were HRC and you had one new bike. Who would you give it to? Nicky or Dani? And why?
You seem to suggest the HRC bends over backwards to screw Hayden. That is sheer Nonsense. You have not provided one shred of evidence other than reports (without any specific quotes or sources) that support your position.
Even if your theory, that Nicky is getting screwed by HRC, is true. Then why did Nicky renew his contract with HRC?
Let's assume the report about the new chassis is true. Let me ask you this.. If you were HRC and you had one new bike. Who would you give it to? Nicky or Dani? And why?
LOL You are amusing Jumkie.
There were no one talking about a complete new chassi before now. AFAIK nobody heard of it at all. The reports talked about the '08, NOT a new '08, but as soon as the news are out you make it into something else. Nikey wanted the '07 -period- Why the hell should HRC push something new on one that doesn't want it? Especially as they have a faster rider that are willing to try? Besides, very few doubt that Hayden now play the second fiddle so that not really up to discussion, but does that mean that he get's bad treatment? I don't think so. He got what he wanted, the '07. To me it looks like Pedrosa gave them some real feedback when he finally where back that enabled them to improve the chassi. The same can't be said about your guy who has been riding all winter, to busy riding to give any feed back.
And finally, even Honda have limits on their resources. Making a handbuildt frame, that might work or not, is not something you do in numbers. With time available they could probably make two of them but as it was there was only time for one. Who should get to try this one out? The slower one screaming for the '07 or the faster that wanted a new frame? Thy really had no choise did they?
Anyway, you've been complaining about Hayden being the developent rider bein ginnypig for HRC and Pedrosa. This time he got to ride proven equipment so what is the whining all about?
There were no one talking about a complete new chassi before now. AFAIK nobody heard of it at all. The reports talked about the '08, NOT a new '08, but as soon as the news are out you make it into something else. Nikey wanted the '07 -period- Why the hell should HRC push something new on one that doesn't want it? Especially as they have a faster rider that are willing to try? Besides, very few doubt that Hayden now play the second fiddle so that not really up to discussion, but does that mean that he get's bad treatment? I don't think so. He got what he wanted, the '07. To me it looks like Pedrosa gave them some real feedback when he finally where back that enabled them to improve the chassi. The same can't be said about your guy who has been riding all winter, to busy riding to give any feed back.
And finally, even Honda have limits on their resources. Making a handbuildt frame, that might work or not, is not something you do in numbers. With time available they could probably make two of them but as it was there was only time for one. Who should get to try this one out? The slower one screaming for the '07 or the faster that wanted a new frame? Thy really had no choise did they?
Anyway, you've been complaining about Hayden being the developent rider bein ginnypig for HRC and Pedrosa. This time he got to ride proven equipment so what is the whining all about?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 20 2008, 10:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Jumkie, you have a favorite rider (per your profile ) Nicky. I don't... who do you think is going to be objective?
Im speechless over that one.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>You seem to suggest the HRC bends over backwards to screw Hayden. That is sheer Nonsense.
They treat him like a satelite rider. Which in a sense is screwing with him because he is supposed to be a number 1 factory rider.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>You have not provided one shred of evidence other than reports (without any specific quotes or sources) that support your position.
Umm there is plenty of quotes and evidence surrounding this, look at my post, with quotes from Nicky that Jumkie took the time to highlight and REPEAT back to you. Show me a <u>RECENT</u> report that would suggest the contrary is true.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Even if your theory, that Nicky is getting screwed by HRC, is true. Then why did Nicky renew his contract with HRC?
Because he won the championship with them in 2006 and probably couldn't forsee all the ........ that was coming.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Let's assume the report about the new chassis is true. Let me ask you this.. If you were HRC and you had one new bike. Who would you give it to? Nicky or Dani? And why?
Good questions and they have been argued to death.
I will let Jumkie fill in the rest
Im speechless over that one.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>You seem to suggest the HRC bends over backwards to screw Hayden. That is sheer Nonsense.
They treat him like a satelite rider. Which in a sense is screwing with him because he is supposed to be a number 1 factory rider.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>You have not provided one shred of evidence other than reports (without any specific quotes or sources) that support your position.
Umm there is plenty of quotes and evidence surrounding this, look at my post, with quotes from Nicky that Jumkie took the time to highlight and REPEAT back to you. Show me a <u>RECENT</u> report that would suggest the contrary is true.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Even if your theory, that Nicky is getting screwed by HRC, is true. Then why did Nicky renew his contract with HRC?
Because he won the championship with them in 2006 and probably couldn't forsee all the ........ that was coming.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Let's assume the report about the new chassis is true. Let me ask you this.. If you were HRC and you had one new bike. Who would you give it to? Nicky or Dani? And why?
Good questions and they have been argued to death.
I will let Jumkie fill in the rest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 20 2008, 12:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>LOL You are amusing Jumkie.
There were no one talking about a complete new chassi before now. AFAIK nobody heard of it at all. The reports talked about the '08, NOT a new '08, but as soon as the news are out you make it into something else.
That's all well and good, except people were talking about a "new 08" over a week ago?
This article, representative of what all else was flying around then, is pretty clear in saying that Hayden's '08 and Pedrosa's '08 weren't of the same generation. It clearly says that Hayden rode a bike 2 generations older than Pedrosa's and didn't have access to the newest bike. Sure, a lot of people spun the thing to say that "Hayden didn't have an '08 available", but that's largely based on misreading what was reported. To say no one was talking about a "new 08" rather than "the 08" is to be an ostrich.
There were no one talking about a complete new chassi before now. AFAIK nobody heard of it at all. The reports talked about the '08, NOT a new '08, but as soon as the news are out you make it into something else.
That's all well and good, except people were talking about a "new 08" over a week ago?
This article, representative of what all else was flying around then, is pretty clear in saying that Hayden's '08 and Pedrosa's '08 weren't of the same generation. It clearly says that Hayden rode a bike 2 generations older than Pedrosa's and didn't have access to the newest bike. Sure, a lot of people spun the thing to say that "Hayden didn't have an '08 available", but that's largely based on misreading what was reported. To say no one was talking about a "new 08" rather than "the 08" is to be an ostrich.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 19 2008, 04:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Also, it appears that the 2007 (spring valve) engine can actually keep up with Yamaha's new pneumatic valve engine.
5 worst top speeds for the race were
average top speed best top speed
Hayden 317.3 318.1
West 317.1 317.5
Dovizioso 315.3 315.9
Nakano 314.8 315.5
De angelis 313.0 314.5
for comparison
Rossi 322.7 326.2
Toseland 319.3 322.4
Doesn't seem like Honda kept up with anyone. I watched the race several times. Toseland didn't have that bad of a speed disadvantage like Ikeep reading. He was just horrible coming out the last corner onto the straight. Watch for yourself. When Rossi would come out on to the straight dovi would be right on him catching his draft and Rossi would still pull away. Tosland would be right on them into the last corner but on the exit he would be several bike lengths back. Also watch when he was passed by Dani and Rossi (and nearly casey). They were passing him by the half way point of the straight, It was his drive off the last corner that hurt him.
You can't include Pedrosa, he will always be fast considering he's a freakin jokey.
5 worst top speeds for the race were
average top speed best top speed
Hayden 317.3 318.1
West 317.1 317.5
Dovizioso 315.3 315.9
Nakano 314.8 315.5
De angelis 313.0 314.5
for comparison
Rossi 322.7 326.2
Toseland 319.3 322.4
Doesn't seem like Honda kept up with anyone. I watched the race several times. Toseland didn't have that bad of a speed disadvantage like Ikeep reading. He was just horrible coming out the last corner onto the straight. Watch for yourself. When Rossi would come out on to the straight dovi would be right on him catching his draft and Rossi would still pull away. Tosland would be right on them into the last corner but on the exit he would be several bike lengths back. Also watch when he was passed by Dani and Rossi (and nearly casey). They were passing him by the half way point of the straight, It was his drive off the last corner that hurt him.
You can't include Pedrosa, he will always be fast considering he's a freakin jokey.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (projekZERO @ Mar 20 2008, 01:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>5 worst top speeds for the race were
average top speed best top speed
Hayden 317.3 318.1
You can't include Pedrosa, he will always be fast considering he's a freakin jokey.
Welcome to the forum Projek 0.
average top speed best top speed
Hayden 317.3 318.1
You can't include Pedrosa, he will always be fast considering he's a freakin jokey.
Welcome to the forum Projek 0.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 20 2008, 05:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Even if your theory, that Nicky is getting screwed by HRC, is true. Then why did Nicky renew his contract with HRC?
Because he knows HRC are the best. Being second best at HRC is better than anything else hes gonna get offered
Because he knows HRC are the best. Being second best at HRC is better than anything else hes gonna get offered
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 20 2008, 05:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you were HRC and you had one new bike. Who would you give it to? Nicky or Dani? And why?
Its a no brainer, because one of them is the 2nd best rider in the world right now and the other isn't close.
Its a no brainer, because one of them is the 2nd best rider in the world right now and the other isn't close.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 20 2008, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Jumkie, you have a favorite rider (per your profile ) Nicky. I don't... who do you think is going to be objective?
Would it help if I delete all my riders to make me more objective? How about if I put every rider’s name as my favorite, would that help? How about I put up Pedrosa's name on my profile, would my argument be suddenly better? Do you see the absurdity of your statement? (Probably not)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 20 2008, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You seem to suggest the HRC bends over backwards to screw Hayden. That is sheer Nonsense.
or as some (and will continue to) claim, HRC did this interntionally to scre Hayden
The only thing that is “sheer nonsense” is you not being able to distinguish between “bending over backwards to screw him” vs. not presenting him with the goods as a co-number 1 rider (and the only MotoGP champion of the team incidentally.) There is a difference between <u>sabotage</u> (which is what YOU suggest people are saying) as oppose to the legitimate objection that Honda has relegating Hayden as the obvious #2 rider. You have NOT read anybody saying Honda are “intentionally trying to screw him” (not even a variation of this implication, even if they did, we agree that its absurd)—which leads me to believe that you are using the age old shoddy debating tactic of gross exaggeration (obviously you fabricated it to support/sidetrack your weak arguement.)
What has been debated and presented is that Hayden was NOT given “access”, not “offered”, (these are direct quoted words in the record) the latest generation of the 08 bike (that means the benefit of having a “NEW” chassis developed just for him). Yes, he had opted to go with the latest 07 generation, but this was BEFORE Honda had decided to scrap the 08 chassis and make Peders a NEW one last minute. (Are you aware that reports come out periodically and one must address the issues and discussion dynamically--this means as information is reported and leaked out you need to adjust your view based on what is reported.?)
I have a feeling I’m wasting my time here (why would it be any different, we have already covered ALL of this ground on another thread), but I’m compelled to straighten out what is rather obvious from the documented articles. Like I said, we can have a difference of opinion on Honda’s treatment or development strategy, that is ok, but the stream of articles on the public record indicate that Hayden has NOT been provided with the same opportunity as his teammate. And it is these reports that you seem to dispute. This should NOT be news, afterall, the 07 bike from its inception was obviously not built to suit Hayden (this coming off a fresh world championship). And here again on the cusp of the 08 season we see the same strategy played out. Of course a Hayden fan (like me) will protest.
So it’s ok for us to have a difference in opinion as to Honda’s strategy, that I understand, but in doing so let us at least factor in the facts. So if you are going to gratuitously claim that Honda should NOT favor Hayden, well then at least DISCLOSE that the record seems to indicate that Pedrosa gets the benefit of the doubt when it comes to equipment. It seems a rather uneven playing field that you chose to judge these two rivals. (UNLESS, you can come up with something substancial that idicates Hayden is getting preferential treatment .)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 20 2008, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You have not provided one shred of evidence other than reports (without any specific quotes or sources) that support your position.
Really? Nothing? This is what I don’t understand. I have linked, quoted, bolded, and sited the articles to you (hell you have even used them in some of your own posts) but then how do you ignore the words? I’m baffled. There is no use linking them to you again here. (Its not like we haven’t already practically memorized them).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 20 2008, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Even if your theory, that Nicky is getting screwed by HRC, is true. Then why did Nicky renew his contract with HRC?
If you were on the cusp of wining a world title (a precious opportunity few and far between) would you sign with another manufacture at that moment? Also, Hayden has won in the US with Honda, and he is loyal (to a fault). On top of that, as Sackwack pointed out, would he have known in the future they would come out with a mini-bike with Peders name engraved on the side to have him defend his title?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 20 2008, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Let's assume the report about the new chassis is true. Let me ask you this.. If you were HRC and you had one new bike. Who would you give it to? Nicky or Dani? And why?
So then you do read the reports, but simply chose to ignore their meaning, in addition to questioning their truthfulness (since it doesn't suit your argument). This is an easy question, I would give it to the man who has provided a premier world title for my company. Do you think the 07 bike presented at Qatar a year ago was designed with Hayden in mind? (I’m assuming you said NO, so then why would you expect Hayden to out perform Peders?) Until Pedrosa fans can protest that the Spaniard is NOT getting the bike designed around him, then maybe we can begin to talk about who should get what. Has it ever occurred to you to question why Pedrosa has been (thus far from 07) more successful than Hayden? I’m sure we can debate this too. You might say, well he is just a better rider. You may be right, but in saying this, would you also disclose that the overwhelming evidence has been that the machine was designed with Peders in mind?
Well it’s been sort of fun debating, but I have a suspicion you will find a way to ignore what doesn’t suit you. However, I took the time to rebut what you are saying, not just for you, but at least for the reader be made aware of the other side and decide for themselves. The articles and quotes are there for everybody to read.
Would it help if I delete all my riders to make me more objective? How about if I put every rider’s name as my favorite, would that help? How about I put up Pedrosa's name on my profile, would my argument be suddenly better? Do you see the absurdity of your statement? (Probably not)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 20 2008, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You seem to suggest the HRC bends over backwards to screw Hayden. That is sheer Nonsense.
or as some (and will continue to) claim, HRC did this interntionally to scre Hayden
The only thing that is “sheer nonsense” is you not being able to distinguish between “bending over backwards to screw him” vs. not presenting him with the goods as a co-number 1 rider (and the only MotoGP champion of the team incidentally.) There is a difference between <u>sabotage</u> (which is what YOU suggest people are saying) as oppose to the legitimate objection that Honda has relegating Hayden as the obvious #2 rider. You have NOT read anybody saying Honda are “intentionally trying to screw him” (not even a variation of this implication, even if they did, we agree that its absurd)—which leads me to believe that you are using the age old shoddy debating tactic of gross exaggeration (obviously you fabricated it to support/sidetrack your weak arguement.)
What has been debated and presented is that Hayden was NOT given “access”, not “offered”, (these are direct quoted words in the record) the latest generation of the 08 bike (that means the benefit of having a “NEW” chassis developed just for him). Yes, he had opted to go with the latest 07 generation, but this was BEFORE Honda had decided to scrap the 08 chassis and make Peders a NEW one last minute. (Are you aware that reports come out periodically and one must address the issues and discussion dynamically--this means as information is reported and leaked out you need to adjust your view based on what is reported.?)
I have a feeling I’m wasting my time here (why would it be any different, we have already covered ALL of this ground on another thread), but I’m compelled to straighten out what is rather obvious from the documented articles. Like I said, we can have a difference of opinion on Honda’s treatment or development strategy, that is ok, but the stream of articles on the public record indicate that Hayden has NOT been provided with the same opportunity as his teammate. And it is these reports that you seem to dispute. This should NOT be news, afterall, the 07 bike from its inception was obviously not built to suit Hayden (this coming off a fresh world championship). And here again on the cusp of the 08 season we see the same strategy played out. Of course a Hayden fan (like me) will protest.
So it’s ok for us to have a difference in opinion as to Honda’s strategy, that I understand, but in doing so let us at least factor in the facts. So if you are going to gratuitously claim that Honda should NOT favor Hayden, well then at least DISCLOSE that the record seems to indicate that Pedrosa gets the benefit of the doubt when it comes to equipment. It seems a rather uneven playing field that you chose to judge these two rivals. (UNLESS, you can come up with something substancial that idicates Hayden is getting preferential treatment .)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 20 2008, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You have not provided one shred of evidence other than reports (without any specific quotes or sources) that support your position.
Really? Nothing? This is what I don’t understand. I have linked, quoted, bolded, and sited the articles to you (hell you have even used them in some of your own posts) but then how do you ignore the words? I’m baffled. There is no use linking them to you again here. (Its not like we haven’t already practically memorized them).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 20 2008, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Even if your theory, that Nicky is getting screwed by HRC, is true. Then why did Nicky renew his contract with HRC?
If you were on the cusp of wining a world title (a precious opportunity few and far between) would you sign with another manufacture at that moment? Also, Hayden has won in the US with Honda, and he is loyal (to a fault). On top of that, as Sackwack pointed out, would he have known in the future they would come out with a mini-bike with Peders name engraved on the side to have him defend his title?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 20 2008, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Let's assume the report about the new chassis is true. Let me ask you this.. If you were HRC and you had one new bike. Who would you give it to? Nicky or Dani? And why?
So then you do read the reports, but simply chose to ignore their meaning, in addition to questioning their truthfulness (since it doesn't suit your argument). This is an easy question, I would give it to the man who has provided a premier world title for my company. Do you think the 07 bike presented at Qatar a year ago was designed with Hayden in mind? (I’m assuming you said NO, so then why would you expect Hayden to out perform Peders?) Until Pedrosa fans can protest that the Spaniard is NOT getting the bike designed around him, then maybe we can begin to talk about who should get what. Has it ever occurred to you to question why Pedrosa has been (thus far from 07) more successful than Hayden? I’m sure we can debate this too. You might say, well he is just a better rider. You may be right, but in saying this, would you also disclose that the overwhelming evidence has been that the machine was designed with Peders in mind?
Well it’s been sort of fun debating, but I have a suspicion you will find a way to ignore what doesn’t suit you. However, I took the time to rebut what you are saying, not just for you, but at least for the reader be made aware of the other side and decide for themselves. The articles and quotes are there for everybody to read.
