Can somebody clear this up for me regarding HRC engines

I'm on another forum and this guy is telling me that the reason nickey rode the 07 bike without the pneumatic valve engine is because he likes it better than the 08 motor, and the 07 motor doesn't fit in the 08 bike.

so for qatar only dani had the new bike and pneumatic engine because he likes it better.

They didn't have a new 08 version of the valve spring engine for nickey or an 08 frame that would fit it so they just gave him the whole 07 package. But he says they will have a new valve spring motor for nickey in spain. That doesn't make sense to me since why would they make 2 different bikes?


That's what this dude is saying...from what I've read here they only brought 2 08 bikes, dani crashed 1 and rode the second. Nickey was SOL and got stuck with the 07 bike, which he might have liked a few weeks ago when the 08 bike might have been less than it is now.

so who's right?

Pedrosa has the Pneumatic

Dovisiosa has the spring valve jobby. Not sure if its by choice because its what Honda will give them as a satellite rider.

De Puniet ..... spring valve .... satellite rider ... take what you get ...

Hayden ....... wanted to run spring valve as he thought he went better on that in testing.

Nakano ....... satellite

De angelis ..... he fell off a satellite Honda.

But you have to remember that Pedrosa had an injured hand so in all reallity he may have been further ahead.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 13 2008, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Pedrosa has the Pneumatic

Dovisiosa has the spring valve jobby. Not sure if its by choice because its what Honda will give them as a satellite rider.

De Puniet ..... spring valve .... satellite rider ... take what you get ...

Hayden ....... wanted to run spring valve as he thought he went better on that in testing.

Nakano ....... satellite

De angelis ..... he fell off a satellite Honda.

But you have to remember that Pedrosa had an injured hand so in all reallity he may have been further ahead.
Nobody right now is running the new engine, just pedrosa on the 08 bike with valve spring engine. If this is wrong feel free to flame me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Noodlerizer @ Mar 14 2008, 02:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nobody right now is running the new engine, just pedrosa on the 08 bike with valve spring engine. If this is wrong feel free to flame me.

I thought that Pedrosa was using the 2008bike with the pneumatic engine.
As was previously said. the Chasis is different in both bikes as well as engine mounts
The 07valve spring engine will not fit the 08chasiss. The 08 Pneumatic engine will not fit the 07 chasiss.

I think some shenanigans is abound. Nicky has consistently gotten the short end of the stick and I don't think that he had the option to ride the Pneumatic vs the Valve spring.

As the discussions go, I believe Pedrosa crashed his bike and rode Nicky's..... If the talk that each had a Pneumatic and Valve Spring is true.

I thought I cleared this up in another thread.

The pneumatic engine was deficient, so was taken back for more work and the 07 engine was put in the 08 frame.
They couldn't get that to work the way they liked, so Nicky elected to go with the 07 that they had rushed to the meeting, while Dani elected to try a new frame with the 07 engine.

As is history now, the new frame looks to be a goer (certainly Dani had a better result with it), and Nicky will have one to try at Jerez.

HRC would have turned up with 4 08s, and I am not sure how many 07 bikes were on hand, but there would have to be at least 2, perhaps 4.

end of day dani had better results than nicky last year.

nicky is going no better or worse this year than last.

now straight off divisioso is going faster than nicky on the same bike

3 words

RIDER RIDER RIDER

Just to be a pedant. Nicky is going better than last year, but not well enough.


43'25.845 43'14.941

Race time for Dani last year (2007) was 43'11.318

Not real good for the 2006 World Champ. Yet he was going quite well on that bike by the end of last season. If that is the same bike.

I don't know anything absolutely but I think Honda screwed up badly.

From the get go both Honda pitboxes had 07s and 08s. I think its obvious (if the reporting is honest) that HRC made last minute changes to true the 07 engine and 08 chassis. Unfortunately they botched the change and they weren't able to get enough parts ready by race day. The new frame was untested so they brought 07s as backups, in case.

They issued a press release to cover their ...... It talked about how the 07 was performing better at Qatar and Honda made sure that the public knew that Nicky liked the 2007 spec better.

In reality Nicky probably did like the 2007 spec better because his 2008 frame was Dani's config. Nicky's config doesn't show up until Jerez.

Long an short, Nicky tested the bike like he always does, and when it comes time to fix things HRC never get it done for him. Maybe he did like the 07 better but it was because he didn't have access to the new bike with his configs. Plus there is the possibility that after Dani chucked his bike down the road, HRC took Nicky's 08 (Dani's parts) rather than rebuilding the scrap heap that was brought back to the garage.

Why is that important? Because the 2008 was actually designed with Dani AND Nicky in mind. Once again, Hayden was giving away 10kph down the straight, and he failed to make good use of his tires. Disaster.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sarto @ Mar 14 2008, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just to be a pedant. Nicky is going better than last year, but not well enough.


43'25.845 43'14.941

Race time for Dani last year (2007) was 43'11.318

Not real good for the 2006 World Champ. Yet he was going quite well on that bike by the end of last season. If that is the same bike.
Man those lap times are .....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sarto @ Mar 14 2008, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just to be a pedant. Nicky is going better than last year, but not well enough.


43'25.845 43'14.941

Race time for Dani last year (2007) was 43'11.318

Not real good for the 2006 World Champ. Yet he was going quite well on that bike by the end of last season. If that is the same bike.
he is going no better or worse relative to other riders.

u cant compare lap times from year to year. it means nothing. what counts is his position relative to the other riders. which is pretty much the same as the first race last year.

end of day honda isnt as .... as everyone makes it out to be.

it came second last year didnt it? if last years team was Melandri and Loris, honda would of been WC or close to it.

and didnt it come 3rd and 4th in the 1st race??

again 3 words


RIDER RIDER RIDER

The 2007 engine does not go in the 2008 chassis, ever. The 2008 bikes ridden this weekend both had the 2008 engine block (because it fits) with 2007 cylinder heads because the pneumatics don't work yet.

still think honda are in a mess and not 100% sure but only 7 wins for Repsol HRC since Vale left tells its own story

I think Sarto is right and Tom may be right. although I've never heard of the 07 heads being used with the 08 blocks.. But lets forget about blocks and heads and just focus on valves. for this dicsusion, there are 4 variables

1. 2007 Chassis/frame
2. 2007 Engine (Spring Valve)
3. 2008 frame
4. 2008 Engine (pneumatic valve)

AFAIK, Honda is yet to run its 2008 engine in any race. they yested it and ut performed worse than the 2007 engine. So in Qatar, this is what was run:

Pedrosa: 08Frame/07Engine
Hayden: 07 Engine/07Frame
Satellite Teams: 07Engine/07Frame

What is being delated is why Hayden ran 07/07 instead of 08/07 like Pedrosa. Honda's (and Nicky's) quotes indicates that he preferred the 07 frame. there was one story that said Honda made him ride on the 07 instead of the 08 frame.

Regardless, fact is 2 satellite Honda riders finshed ahead of Nicky.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 14 2008, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think Sarto is right and Tom may be right. although I've never heard of the 07 heads being used with the 08 blocks.. But lets forget about blocks and heads and just focus on valves. for this dicsusion, there are 4 variables

1. 2007 Chassis/frame
2. 2007 Engine (Spring Valve)
3. 2008 frame
4. 2008 Engine (pneumatic valve)

AFAIK, Honda is yet to run its 2008 engine in any race. they yested it and ut performed worse than the 2007 engine. So in Qatar, this is what was run:

Pedrosa: 08Frame/07Engine
Hayden: 07 Engine/07Frame
Satellite Teams: 07Engine/07Frame

What is being delated is why Hayden ran 07/07 instead of 08/07 like Pedrosa. Honda's (and Nicky's) quotes indicates that he preferred the 07 frame. there was one story that said Honda made him ride on the 07 instead of the 08 frame.

Regardless, fact is 2 satellite Honda riders finshed ahead of Nicky.

Is there not 2 generations of 07's? Nicky got the early 07 and Pedro on the later 07?
Also, it sounded like they were scrambling for parts so who got the good parts?

This topic is getting rediculous and we will never know, well never say never heh

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Mar 14 2008, 07:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think Sarto is right and Tom may be right. although I've never heard of the 07 heads being used with the 08 blocks.. But lets forget about blocks and heads and just focus on valves. for this dicsusion, there are 4 variables

1. 2007 Chassis/frame
2. 2007 Engine (Spring Valve)
3. 2008 frame
4. 2008 Engine (pneumatic valve)

AFAIK, Honda is yet to run its 2008 engine in any race. they yested it and ut performed worse than the 2007 engine. So in Qatar, this is what was run:

Pedrosa: 08Frame/07Engine
Hayden: 07 Engine/07Frame
Satellite Teams: 07Engine/07Frame

Sarto IS wrong, the '07 engine doesn't fit, but the heads do just like Tom said.

Satelite teams (and Hayden last weekend) ride latest revision '07. Not early or late, but latest.
Pedrosa rode the '08 with '07 headers on top of the '08 engine. Except from the heads there does not exist any 07/08 mix.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>What is being delated is why Hayden ran 07/07 instead of 08/07 like Pedrosa. Honda's (and Nicky's) quotes indicates that he preferred the 07 frame. there was one story that said Honda made him ride on the 07 instead of the 08 frame.

I don't have any evidence but I suspect it is as simple as this: They had 6 bikes in total, two identical '07 and four more or less identical '08. Hayden wanted and got his wish to ride the '07 and after crashing one '08 there were still 3 untouched '08 waiting for Pedrosa.
If two of them had pnumatic heads it was easier for them to let Pedrosa take Haydens unwanted rather than changing heads on his second bike from the '07 or from the scrapped '08. That gave them both wat they wanted, including the extra safety of a spare '07 for Hayden alone. But then again, no conspiration is boring even though it's closer to the truth.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 14 2008, 01:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Long an short, Nicky tested the bike like he always does, and when it comes time to fix things HRC never get it done for him.

Actaullay, does Honda listen to anybody? Say what you will about Biaggi, but Neil Spalding has some good information in his book MotoGP Technology. In Max's last year, Honda pushed all sorts of odd crap on Biaggi and Barros. Max and Alex both kept saying "it doesn't work, it doesnt work". well, everyoine said "that's Max being Max". well, Neil goes on stating that HRC basically took all the crap they tried with Max and Alex, smashed it in one bike and gave it to Nicky for 2006. Now, Nicky did have times that he said 'it doesn't work', but not as loudly as Max and Alex. Nicky different clutch setup than Dani's, his bikes inabaility to get off the line, etc - well, Alex and Max put up with the exact same things. Remeber Nicky's quiet complaints about the bike even though he was finishing well? Nicky just managed to stay on two wheels the whole season and have consistant finishes and, yes, benefited from the misfortune of others - 3 Rossi DNF's along with crashes at Jerez and Valencia, basically everyone crashing at Catlunya and being ineffecitve afterwords due to injury. Look at all the DNF's cand crashes in 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Grand_Prix_motorcycle_racing_season). But hey, that's racing and Nicky won with consitant finishes whether you like it or not.

HRC will do what HRC will do regardless of what the rider is going to say. The only thing really helping Dani with HRC is Puig and the fact they are both Spanish and Repsol oil is Spanish.

At least that's my theory.....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 15 2008, 08:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sarto IS wrong, the '07 engine doesn't fit, but the heads do just like Tom said.

Satelite teams (and Hayden last weekend) ride latest revision '07. Not early or late, but latest.
Pedrosa rode the '08 with '07 headers on top of the '08 engine. Except from the heads there does not exist any 07/08 mix.


If two of them had pnumatic heads it was easier for them to let Pedrosa take Haydens unwanted rather than changing heads on his second bike from the '07 or from the scrapped '08. That gave them both wat they wanted, including the extra safety of a spare '07 for Hayden alone. But then again, no conspiration is boring even though it's closer to the truth.

I don't mind if I am wrong. I am only going on what I have read elsewhere.

Only here have I heard that they used 07 heads on the 08 block.
Do you have a source for that?

Also, I think they gave up on the pneumatic heads some time ago, and there would have been 2 hybrid 07/08 bikes for each rider, with as you say at least a couple of 07 bikes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sarto @ Mar 15 2008, 06:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't mind if I am wrong. I am only going on what I have read elsewhere.

Only here have I heard that they used 07 heads on the 08 block.
Do you have a source for that?

Also, I think they gave up on the pneumatic heads some time ago, and there would have been 2 hybrid 07/08 bikes for each rider, with as you say at least a couple of 07 bikes.

ASFAIK they didn't give up the pnumatics but realised it wouldn't be ready for quatar.

Regarding the heads, can't remember where I red it but if I remember correctly it was more like a first hand report and not one of those speculative ones. Besides it make perfect sense. Unless they change bore the top will fit with only the cam drive mechanism to be interchangable.
As an example I know that Ducati 916/748 heads where interchangeable so you could easily transform your 748 to a 916.

don't think that old trick would work with the 07 v 08 honda, is it not an entirely new motor? i think it is. the crankcases on the 08 honda are very different, we've all seen the pics, so the heads can't possibly swap. we know the 08 motor won't sit in the 07 frame, that tells you all you need to know.
anyway i can't honestly see the big h going to all the bother of designing a new pneumatic motor whilst retaining the same dimensions as the outgoing valve sprung version, that's against honda religion. the pneumatic valves allowing higher revs will almost definitely require a shorter stroke to allow the rest of the motor to handle 20k + revs without breaking into ....., which in turn means upping the bore. That and the advantages of pneumatics allowing a smaller lighter motor, and the fact that big bang is dead, makes me think the whole donkey is new.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skid @ Mar 15 2008, 10:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>don't think that old trick would work with the 07 v 08 honda, is it not an entirely new motor? i think it is. the crankcases on the 08 honda are very different, we've all seen the pics, so the heads can't possibly swap. we know the 08 motor won't sit in the 07 frame, that tells you all you need to know.
anyway i can't honestly see the big h going to all the bother of designing a new pneumatic motor whilst retaining the same dimensions as the outgoing valve sprung version, that's against honda religion. the pneumatic valves allowing higher revs will almost definitely require a shorter stroke to allow the rest of the motor to handle 20k + revs without breaking into ....., which in turn means upping the bore. That and the advantages of pneumatics allowing a smaller lighter motor, and the fact that big bang is dead, makes me think the whole donkey is new.

Neil Spalding was on Eurosport saying that the new engine has the old heads fitted until the pneumatics work. I definitely trust his knowlege above anyone elses until i see more evidence.