Brno Race Discussion

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Aug 17 2009, 07:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lorenzo back to the business This gets even more interesting, at least for me. Fast in practice then slow in race then back to fast in practice. Some chaulk it up to nerves or choking. Somehow I'm not buying it.
There is another rider comes into my mind with the name of CS, who hardly use to show his practice pace on race days.

But i think biggest single factor in lack of pace on race days could be down to change track temprature, which J Burgess mentioned yesterday as well just before the start of the race.

Kallio went off into the gravel today btw.

Which race was the Hayden/Kallio incident, which I seem to remember was unfortunately not caught on tv?

Sweet a double post by mistake.

I'll use this to ask somebody to please translate what suppo says in that video that was posted earlier in the thread?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pirkkalan GP @ Aug 17 2009, 06:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Kallio went off into the gravel today btw.

Which race was the Hayden/Kallio incident, which I seem to remember was unfortunately not caught on tv?
Le mans. It wasn't on TV, but Nicky posted pictures of the damage on his website after Kallio blamed him.

Yes I remember there were two sides to the story there. Just couldn't remember which race it was. I also remember Kallio was over FOUR seconds quicker than Hayden the lap before the crash. Also that Hayden finished the race where as Kallio didn't. That incident was rather different from yesterday's though as it was a flag to flag race with mixed conditions.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pirkkalan GP @ Aug 17 2009, 07:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes I remember there were two sides to the story there. I also remember Kallio was over FOUR seconds quicker than Hayden the lap before the crash.
If you really remember the race, you'll remember the tire situation. Nicky's tires were on a fresh lap and not warm. Of course Kallio was faster.
There are not 2 sides when you hit someone from behind.

Le Mans was Kallio's fault.
Brno was Kallio's fault (unless they've outlawed the block pass).
Where does he get off pushing Marco? You better believe he will get booed in Misano.

Kallio (like Takahashi) seems to think this is the 250s. Riders take different lines in MotoGP and it is the rookies job to watch and adapt.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Aug 17 2009, 06:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>There is another rider comes into my mind with the name of CS, who hardly use to show his practice

Get real guys (and just qoting you as an example here Inam), the master of fast Monday is CE not JL or CS.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Aug 17 2009, 06:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But i think biggest single factor in lack of pace on race days could be down to change track temprature, which J Burgess mentioned yesterday as well just before the start of the race.

And the biggest single factor could well be that in practice you get the track to yourself most of the time, weheras in race conditions you are often fighting with others whilst trying to manage tyre life, fuel consumption and perform consistent lap times. Practice is practice and is designed to find limits, settings etc over a short period that will work for the race when manged correctly, thus race pace is slower than practice.






Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 18 2009, 03:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And the biggest single factor could well be that in practice you get the track to yourself most of the time, weheras in race conditions you are often fighting with others whilst trying to manage tyre life, fuel consumption and perform consistent lap times. Practice is practice and is designed to find limits, settings etc over a short period that will work for the race when manged correctly, thus race pace is slower than practice.

Gaz
Couldn't agree more with you Gaz on above post.

But seriously CS stoner have number of times shown extraordinary pace on friday's and Saturday's which he failed to carry on race days but having said that in some of those races he won the race as well so you can argue that he never had to push so hard.

But i was trying to reply to Sackwack where he was getting funny ideas about yamaha doing foul play or something so i just used CS as an example.I wasn't trying to criticise him in any form or shape.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pirkkalan GP @ Aug 17 2009, 08:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'll use this to ask somebody to please translate what suppo says in that video that was posted earlier in the thread?
He said that it may be considered a typical racing incident and that Kallio probably didn't see Melandri. Then he goes on saying he's satisfied with Kallio's performance and with the bike.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Aug 17 2009, 08:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lorenzo back to the business This gets even more interesting, at least for me. Fast in practice then slow in race then back to fast in practice. Some chaulk it up to nerves or choking. Somehow I'm not buying it.
.............
Bad to see 3 riders a second quicker than the next quickest.

That's not so very strange... Practice is usually done in 5 or 8 laps stints, the race is 20-30 laps. Even assuming that the bikes keep a race setup in practice (but I doubt they practice on a full tank anyway) the mental 'setup' and concentration of the riders will have to last for much longer in the actual race, and under more stress

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Aug 18 2009, 04:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's not so very strange... Practice is usually done in 5 or 8 laps stints, the race is 20-30 laps. Even assuming that the bikes keep a race setup in practice (but I doubt they practice on a full tank anyway) the mental 'setup' and concentration of the riders will have to last for much longer in the actual race, and under more stress

Are you implying that Lorenzo has no idea what he is talking about? Lorenzo would know the score and what he is capable of in practaice and come raceday. It seems awefully ignorant to not know that he will go slower with more fuel and doing more laps, no?? I am pretty sure that Lorenzo knows what he is capable of during the race after all the practices and warm-up. Of course he would never admit nerves or anything mental then would he

But I understand your bias towards Lorenzo

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squarewheel @ Aug 18 2009, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He said that it may be considered a typical racing incident and that Kallio probably didn't see Melandri. Then he goes on saying he's satisfied with Kallio's performance and with the bike.

thank you squarewheel. A constructive post unlike some others

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Aug 17 2009, 10:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>There are not 2 sides when you hit someone from behind.

somebody should tell that to insurance companies!!

My point was not to discredit Nicky that he was going slow, I'm full well aware of what the situation was and I'm somebody who likes the Kentucky kid, it was to show how Hayden was like a back marker - in Kallio's way. Why wave blue flags if it's all the responsibility of the rider behind?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Aug 18 2009, 05:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Are you implying that Lorenzo has no idea what he is talking about? Lorenzo would know the score and what he is capable of in practaice and come raceday. It seems awefully ignorant to not know that he will go slower with more fuel and doing more laps, no?? I am pretty sure that Lorenzo knows what he is capable of during the race after all the practices and warm-up. Of course he would never admit nerves or anything mental then would he

But I understand your bias towards Lorenzo


...Exactly

BTW, it's not just my 'bias': so far there is enough evidence he doesn't really know not only what he talks about, but even what he does on track and why/how he does it.

That doesn't mean he cannot learn, of course. Some say he's learning. I still have doubts about his intelligence.

I'll be glad to be proven wrong... for the time being: give us Stoner back!!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pirkkalan GP @ Aug 18 2009, 12:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>somebody should tell that to insurance companies!!

My point was not to discredit Nicky that he was going slow, I'm full well aware of what the situation was and I'm somebody who likes the Kentucky kid, it was to show how Hayden was like a back marker - in Kallio's way. Why wave blue flags if it's all the responsibility of the rider behind?The blue flag is to let them know someone is coming so that they can let them by. There's no obligation for a rider to let another rider that they are ahead of by. You're not a "back marker in someone's way" when you're ahead of them in the race!

To say that Hayden was "4 seconds slower" the lap before is misleading. Why not go back to the lap before that when Hayden switched bikes and was 40 seconds faster? He's on his second lap with new tires - of course his time is going to be worse (but his pace would clearly be picking up as he rounded the track, too). Even with the ram by Kallio, Hayden ran the same pace the lap of the incident as the lap before, and the following lap he was under Kallio's best time, even on a damaged bike. Hayden was 6 seconds quicker on his changing lap, 3 seconds quicker on his first lap after that, and a second quicker on his third lap after changing. He was slightly slower on his second lap than Kallio was on his second, because Kallio, riding over his head, rammed him in bonehead fashion and cost him time(ran him off track, and even with that off-track excursion ran about the same lap time as the previous lap).

Nicky was seconds faster than Kallio on fresh tires. He was about up to temperature and pace (certainly not 4 seconds slower at that point) and was in the lead. Kallio was an overexcited rookie eager to try and pass someone who was significantly faster than him in the same conditions before his tire advantage was neutralized by another half-lap of heat. He pushed too hard, got in over his head, made a desperate move before he had any chance at all to know what Hayden's line was, screwed up and crashed into Hayden, and then complained that Nicky changed his line.

If not up to Kallio's pace at the time, Nicky would have been very close to it. Kallio probably knew he was about to get dropped, so he got desperate and foolish.

Lol. He'd already lost 0.8 through the first two sectors. Suggesting he'd be still a good second or two slower if he hadn't have got in the way. Numbers point to Kallio catching Hayden quickly and to Nicky being in his way, Kallio avoiding him, therefore going onto a wet part of the track and falling. Lol, desperate and foolish. You guys crack me up. Fastest on track and taking advantage of situation is more fitting. Just a snail with colder tyres and less confidence was in the way.

Oh I thought the blue flag was to signify a clean beach. Silly me.

Number's don't lie?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pirkkalan GP @ Aug 18 2009, 02:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lol. He'd already lost 0.8 through the first two sectors. Suggesting he'd be still a good couple of seconds slower if he hadn't have got in the way. Numbers point to Kallio catching Hayden quickly and to Nicky being in his way, Kallio avoiding him, therefore going onto a wet part of the track and falling. Lol, desperate and foolish. You guys crack me up. Fastest on track and taking advantage of situation is more fitting. Just a snail with colder tyres and less confidence was in the way.

Oh I thought the blue flag was to signify a clean beach. Silly me.
Why do you persist with the grossly unrealistic assumption that warming tires warm up in discrete imcrements at the beginning of each lap? Losing .8 of a second on 2 sectors with warming tires doesn't necessarily mean he'd be a "good couple of seconds slower". Also, your .8 figure is wrong, it was .6, and only .2 in the last sector that Kallio completed. Hayden was about 2 seconds up on his pace from the previous lap through the first 2 sectors as well. He was up to speed. Kallio knew hes opportunity was fading, so he tried an overambitious, foolish pass. If you're .2 slower through a sector, you might be holding someone up, but that's racing (and Hayden's last sector split before the crash beat Kallio's from the previous lap). The numbers don't lie. Hayden was up to speed, Kallio was slightly faster, but the difference was rapidly shrinking. He was up to Kallio's pace from the previous lap. Kallio had ran a couple of consistent laps, and suddenly dropped half a second over the first two sectors (yet still was catching Hayden slower and slower) and crashed. Sounds like a desperate and out of control rider to me.

Snail with less confidence on colder tires? Hayden was matching Kallio's splits from his 5th (and final full) lap with fresh tires on his third. Fastest on track? That was Melandri by then. Kallio just didn't have the pace to match, and quite possibly lacked the pace to stay with Hayden for more than another lap or so, as the next lap Hayden completed was faster than anything Kallio had done (and faster through his last 2 sectors where he'd dropped time and gotten in over his head, too).

Numbers don't lie, unless you make up your numbers.

6+2 = 8

You miss two points: track conditions improving and your time will drop when there's a slower bike in front.

Yes, less confidence. Kallio was very confident at that point believing himself to be able to catch the front riders and the bike was feeling great. Certainly nothing desperate was going on in his mind.

Indy will be interesting. Hayden should be miles ahead of Kallio.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Aug 18 2009, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Couldn't agree more with you Gaz on above post.

But seriously CS stoner have number of times shown extraordinary pace on friday's and Saturday's which he failed to carry on race days but having said that in some of those races he won the race as well so you can argue that he never had to push so hard.

But i was trying to reply to Sackwack where he was getting funny ideas about yamaha doing foul play or something so i just used CS as an example.I wasn't trying to criticise him in any form or shape.

He is right here Gaz, if Casey is quick he usually shows it straight away, within 1st 10 laps on Fri-Sat, the point to remember here is that Jeremy and Vale always seem to fox with practice and bring out an amazing package on race day- continual good luck or good tactics - open for discussion.....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pirkkalan GP @ Aug 18 2009, 04:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>6+2 = 8What's the relevance of that? I mean congratulations on being able to add 2 1-digit numbers and all, but without context they don't mean much.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pirkkalan GP @ Aug 18 2009, 04:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You miss two points: track conditions improving and your time will drop when there's a slower bike in front.Until you override your ability and bin it.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pirkkalan GP @ Aug 18 2009, 04:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes, less confidence. Kallio was very confident at that point believing himself to be able to catch the front riders and the bike was feeling great.False confidence.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pirkkalan GP @ Aug 18 2009, 04:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Certainly nothing desperate was going on in his mind.Then why'd he try an impossible pass? If he was really appreciably faster than Hayden at that point, a less risky pass would have been easy. The problem is that he wasn't, and his advantage was going to be gone within the lap, if it wasn't already.