Brno Race Discussion

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Aug 18 2009, 10:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He is right here Gaz, if Casey is quick he usually shows it straight away, within 1st 10 laps on Fri-Sat, the point to remember here is that Jeremy and Vale always seem to fox with practice and bring out an amazing package on race day- continual good luck or good tactics - open for discussion.....

Yep, CS is straighht out of the box fast as that is all he knows and really it does work for him as it generally gets him to the front row.

But practice pace is different to race pace irrespective of who and this is where VR's approach has been successful even when he is not the quickest rider throughout practice as he will continue to look for settings whereas I suspect others (not just CS) say, all good and leave it there. I say this as we forever hear that VR/JB have changed settings etc on the morning of the race and found an extra X tenths or whatnot, but rarely do we hear from others.

Yes it could be the standard media/mind games BS but I doubt strongly that VR would not put a maximum effort into practice in these times as he knows he needs to be closer the front with the current bolter opposition. In years past he could easily be on row 4 and still win, but today is a little harder and he much prefers to be first row (although not necessarily pole) as it is always easier from there.







Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 19 2009, 10:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yep, CS is straighht out of the box fast as that is all he knows and really it does work for him as it generally gets him to the front row.

But practice pace is different to race pace irrespective of who and this is where VR's approach has been successful even when he is not the quickest rider throughout practice as he will continue to look for settings whereas I suspect others (not just CS) say, all good and leave it there. I say this as we forever hear that VR/JB have changed settings etc on the morning of the race and found an extra X tenths or whatnot, but rarely do we hear from others.

Yes it could be the standard media/mind games BS but I doubt strongly that VR would not put a maximum effort into practice in these times as he knows he needs to be closer the front with the current bolter opposition. In years past he could easily be on row 4 and still win, but today is a little harder and he much prefers to be first row (although not necessarily pole) as it is always easier from there.







Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 19 2009, 01:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes it could be the standard media/mind games BS but I doubt strongly that VR would not put a maximum effort into practice in these times as he knows he needs to be closer the front with the current bolter opposition. In years past he could easily be on row 4 and still win, but today is a little harder and he much prefers to be first row (although not necessarily pole) as it is always easier from there.

Garry
Spot on Gaz again and the biggest improvement i have seen last year and this year are his starts off the line, and if there was only one weakness in Rossi you can point out in past but now he has overcome that as well. He knows he needs to be along side CS and Dani to challange them if you give them clear track for few laps then its difficult to catch them.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Aug 19 2009, 03:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Spot on Gaz again and the biggest improvement i have seen last year and this year are his starts off the line, and if there was only one weakness in Rossi you can point out in past but now he has overcome that as well. He knows he needs to be along side CS and Dani to challange them if you give them clear track for few laps then its difficult to catch them.

Which raises the question of what has changed, and yes that is meant to allude to such things as electronics and what not.

Specifically it has to be said that throughout his career VR has been somewhat of a poor starter and is not usually associated with blasting into the lead in the first few corners, yet this year he is always there or thereabouts. Were it a skill thing he would have fixed the problem a long time ago, so the only obvious (or logical) answer is electronics or technical improvements in the bike.

So, with that said let us discuss further to see how far we can make this thread go as we seem to have nothing to whinge, ..... or moan about this race.








Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 19 2009, 03:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Which raises the question of what has changed, and yes that is meant to allude to such things as electronics and what not.

Specifically it has to be said that throughout his career VR has been somewhat of a poor starter and is not usually associated with blasting into the lead in the first few corners, yet this year he is always there or thereabouts. Were it a skill thing he would have fixed the problem a long time ago, so the only obvious (or logical) answer is electronics or technical improvements in the bike.

So, with that said let us discuss further to see how far we can make this thread go as we seem to have nothing to whinge, ..... or moan about this race.

Gaz
I disagree with you Gaz on above post, i think you really a made good point in your previous post where you said in past even when Rossi started from the 4th row he still manges to win races with ease, i think due this reason he never really bothered with his poor starts and another thing he always likes to have close racing.

But now he knows that his rivals have close the gap on him and competition is alot tougher in the shape of CS,JL and Dani.

Ok now comes the point how he manage to improve his starts off the line, where you are saying its all bcecuase of electronics or technical improvements but why all these aids not helping Lorenzo with his starts, he is having poor starts race after race.

I believe he knew his weakness and he worked hard to overcome that weakness, i wouldn't say its all down to electronics or technical improvements.You have to give him credit where its due Gaz.

Edit:It was frist time in 2007 when CS started to disappear in distance on ragular basis and Rossi realized that he needs to improve his starts and it only took him one season to sort out his starts off the line.

Thread rolls on.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Aug 19 2009, 04:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I disagree with you Gaz on above post, i think you really a made good point in your previous post where you said in past even when Rossi started from the 4th row he still manges to win races with ease, i think due this reason he never really bothered with his poor starts and another thing he always likes to have close racing.

But now he knows that his rivals have close the gap on him and competition is alot tougher in the shape of CS,JL and Dani.

Ok now comes the point how he manage to improve his starts off the line, where you are saying its all bcecuase of electronics or technical improvements but why all these aids not helping Lorenzo with his starts, he is having poor starts race after race.

I believe he knew his weakness and he worked hard to overcome that weakness, i wouldn't say its all down to electronics or technical improvements.You have to give him credit where its due Gaz.

Edit:It was frist time in 2007 when CS started to disappear in distance on ragular basis and Rossi realized that he needs to improve his starts and it only took him one season to sort out his starts off the line.

Thread rolls on.

Could be a number of things and given that JL has hinted that he is not getting equal to VR (whether true or not) it could be that he does not have the same electronic package (unlikely) or that he has not gotten the nuances of it's set-up as yet. Could well be that he has no idea of the balances required or he could simply be a bad starter who will improve over time.

As for the second highlighted paragraph, my question back would be why did VR not improve the starts throughout 2006/2007 as being the competitive person he is, were he able to improve his starts at that point he would have as he had competition in those years as well. Nope, I tend to think it is electronics/technical (maybe clutch changes etc) as if he could have improved earlier he most definitely would have as no athlete will take risks with mediocre performances when they strive for perfection.

See let me ask it this way, are you saying that VR has improved his starts because he had to, with no outside assistance from electronics?

If so, why has it taken so long for him to improve given that the competition has improved over the last three years?




EDIT: See to take some poetic licence, for me I struggle to understand why people automatically assume that the improvements of all riders are down to electronics, with the exception of VR who is all skill.





Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 19 2009, 12:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Which raises the question of what has changed, and yes that is meant to allude to such things as electronics and what not.

Specifically it has to be said that throughout his career VR has been somewhat of a poor starter and is not usually associated with blasting into the lead in the first few corners, yet this year he is always there or thereabouts. Were it a skill thing he would have fixed the problem a long time ago, so the only obvious (or logical) answer is electronics or technical improvements in the bike.

So, with that said let us discuss further to see how far we can make this thread go as we seem to have nothing to whinge, ..... or moan about this race.











Gaz


Even in 08 these starts were improving-slightly. VR has always liked to bed the bike in, but the past two and a half years have changed that, and we see some mistakes (Assen 08) in the first few laps. It seems to be a bit of both to me, maybe improved launch electrics combined with a bit of work with VR-bit boring though there doesn't seem to be any weakness in him now-very scary for the others, if they weren't already scared enough!

Vale certainly has watched a lot of great riders succumb to his pressure and lose the front (while in the lead) over the years.

A good point to add here would have to be the 800's and how they have changed the face of racing. It is well noted they are easier to master for the majority of riders, so the importance of the talent of riders who relied on racing skills to make up for bad starts, poor grid position etc. has been diminished, especially when launch control and greater acceleration/top speed allowed certain riders to clear a 3-4 second gap in 1.5 laps!

More of late though it seems to have taken a little longer for VR and JL to drop CS, Pedders and Dovi, but the Fiat boys pace is really stunning, I find the amazing thing about the M1 is I have trouble seeing where its stronger, certainly not in straight-line acceleration, it just seems so precise.

The front on-board from the 99 around 8 laps in at the second right-hander in the down hill section was amazing, VR just seemed to slingshot through the apex and pull 5 meters on JL instantly.

Honda, Ducati and Suzuki are worried-and so they should be, if Yamaha retains JL, grabs Spies and keeps JB after VR goes, the triple tuning fork will continue to dominate for a while yet

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Aug 19 2009, 04:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>More of late though it seems to have taken a little longer for VR and JL to drop CS, Pedders and Dovi, but the Fiat boys pace is really stunning, I find the amazing thing about the M1 is I have trouble seeing where its stronger, certainly not in straight-line acceleration, it just seems so precise.


Not so sure I agree fully with the comment indicating that it is taking longer for the M1 pilots to drop DP, CS, Dovi etc as for me the M1's just seem to be within themselves early whereas the others seem more on edge (none more so than the Ducati).

But the M1 to me appears as ridiculous machine in terms that it has no obvious weaknesses. Over the years all bikes have had their strong and weak points but for 2009 I have not seen an obvious weakpoint with the M1 as it accelerates well, has good speed, handles like it is on rails and has stability everywhere which makes it a very tough ask for the other manufacturers.

None of this detracts from the performances of VR/JL as they are simply riding at a level that when coupled with the bike makes them damn near untouchable and whether it makes good racing or boring racing it is spectacular to watch the precision, although I do prefer the bucking bronco look myself.





Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Aug 19 2009, 02:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>None of this detracts from the performances of VR/JL as they are simply riding at a level that when coupled with the bike makes them damn near untouchable and whether it makes good racing or boring racing it is spectacular to watch the precision, although I do prefer the bucking bronco look myself.





Garry

190cc more capacity and 4 less lap-tops in the garages might bring this back for you mate!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Aug 19 2009, 06:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>190cc more capacity and 4 less lap-tops in the garages might bring this back for you mate!!



Explain that bloody Ducati then

But in all seriousness, give me 500cc of two-strole and then we are on the path







Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Aug 19 2009, 02:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What's the relevance of that? I mean congratulations on being able to add 2 1-digit numbers and all, but without context they don't mean much.

It was in context. You said I made up numbers. I didn't. I added two splits to give a total of 0.8 and that was what I said in the first place.

He didn't make a desperate move. He started to go past on one side, hayden got in the way, switched to the other side and hit a wet patch. Wasn't anything desperate. Just trying to avoid a slow moving vehicle (maybe he should put that on his leathers), which he would have done if it wasn't for the wet track.