Joined Feb 2007
6K Posts | 58+
Rovrum S,Yorks Eng
BRNO GP Race Discussion
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For some reason, lap times were much slower compared to last year.
The pole was slower, the race pace even slower...
It must be a tire thing. These 2010 Stones are different from last year's.
Almost all riders, with the only exception of Lorenzo, have been complaining about the current Bridgestones. The hard tires are unusable -- too hard. And the "soft" ones are hard enough to last the entire race, and then some.
It seems all had to shift the weight even more to the rear with these tires, and all complain about a lack of front end feel.
All but Lorenzo and his team. They are quite happy. They found something the others haven't, apparently. Kudos to Forcada!
(If Rossi was the only one without any problems, many would already be screaming about conspiracy -- but luckily it is Lorenzo)
There is also the possibility that jorge is really, really good at this particular point in time.
I tend to agree with you about the tyres, in addition to jorge being good. if so, it is another example of the law of unintended consequences and that precipitate reaction to circumstances which might be transitory if left alone is not wise.
The single tyre rule seemed to me to be a reaction to the dominance of stoner/ducati in 2007, more than just for the economic reasons which were said to justify the change. I have no doubt that the bridgestone tyres in 2007 gave stoner an advantage, partly because they were particularly suited to the gp07 having been developed with considerable effort for several years to be so, and partly because they serendipitously peculiarly suited stoner's riding style and apparent necessity for a particular front end "feel" . I had no problem with rossi switching to bridgestone, but did have a problem with the control tyre, as did roger/chopperman from the rossi perspective. Now we appear to have a tyre peculiarly suited to another rider, and good luck to him; it is obviously at least partly due to he and his team's talent for settting-up the current yamaha. However there is now no alternative manufacturer to develop a tyre which might suit a different bike and riding style, and little incentive for bridgestone to diversify their tyre development such as it is now ; they are rumoured to be leaving the sport anyway. Valentino can very likely develop the ducati to suit the tyre I guess, if that is all that is required.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Yes - Stoner reiterated in a recent interview - that he found the tires too durable for his style of riding,
saying that the tires should not be super grippy till the end of the race - because his riding style/strategy
was best served by tires that would allow him to slide the bike around a lot during the closing laps.
Conversely - tires that stay sticky until the end clearly suit Lorenzo and his 250 style - ride-on-rails
technique very well.
The whole spec tires thing still sucks. It hasn't made racing safer or closer.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Of course he's exceedingly good. I personally don't like him, but have no problem recognizing that Lorenzo is a great rider.
But when anybody (Rossi included) enjoys that kind of domination, there is always a technical advantage hidden somewhere. As was the case in 2007. Or in 2002-03. No rider can consistently be 4-5 tenths or even 1 second faster than the competition in MotoGP, on all tracks, without some kind of technical advantage.
+100
as I've said many times before, BS are now very lazy in their approach as is natural with no competition, if anyone Michelin should have been the sole tyre supplier, they have a record which far exceeds BS in Motogp and even in the years when they were so dominant it was as if there was only one supplier-they continued to push the envelop developing specific tyres for riders, teams and bikes. (and before you lot bring out the bopper rubbish-they developed specific rubber for MickD, AlexC, Sete, Max, Colin, Nicky, Pedders and others too!)
Rubber is probably the most important element besides the rider and BS's shopfront approach of 'this is what we have-choose one' IMO doesn't reflect the passion and excellence that should be prototype racing. Compared to Michelin's far more bespoke philosophy, BS's efforts are second rate-as is their record in Motogp for besides a couple of 'out of the blue' seasons due to a major spec rule change coupled with a major tyre supply rule change- BS really were the tyre 'not' to have........and it was the latter rule change that prompted Rossi and Pedders to jump ship handing the sole supplier rights to BS.......and now we know they will be pulling out anyway-this is farcical-I've seen local Saturday Morning under 12's football tournaments better managed than this! I know the Spanish encourage a good siesta-but after the race not during!
And of all the tech wizardry that exists in the sport, the rubber advancements made by Michelin in Motogp were starting to really make a different to rubber available for the road, one of the only true benefits to the road rider filtering down. I can't help but notice BS hasn't really filtered much at all recently or ever........?
What we are seeing this year is the obvious down side of the sole tyre rule and indeed Dorna with the MSMAMORONS other choking regs. Even though this type of precession was not unheard of in the past with tyre competition, we tended to see at least a few other riders able to challenge-not too mention satellite efforts like KRJR and Elias getting up and amongst it. Now it seems in an age of incredible choice, the best riders, teams and bike manufactures in the world have far less options.
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
None of this is in fact Bridgestones fault. They made it quite clear that they would have difficulty in providing tyres for the whole grid. They were pressured into doing so.
SIngle tyre rule ..... it sucks
Even now they want to drop F1.
SIngle tyre rule ..... it sucks
Even now they want to drop F1.
+100
as I've said many times before, BS are now very lazy in their approach as is natural with no competition, if anyone Michelin should have been the sole tyre supplier, they have a record which far exceeds BS in Motogp and even in the years when they were so dominant it was as if there was only one supplier-they continued to push the envelop developing specific tyres for riders, teams and bikes. (and before you lot bring out the bopper rubbish-they developed specific rubber for MickD, AlexC, Sete, Max, Colin, Nicky, Pedders and others too!)
Rubber is probably the most important element besides the rider and BS's shopfront approach of 'this is what we have-choose one' IMO doesn't reflect the passion and excellence that should be prototype racing. Compared to Michelin's far more bespoke philosophy, BS's efforts are second rate-as is their record in Motogp for besides a couple of 'out of the blue' seasons due to a major spec rule change coupled with a major tyre supply rule change- BS really were the tyre 'not' to have........and it was the latter rule change that prompted Rossi and Pedders to jump ship handing the sole supplier rights to BS.......and now we know they will be pulling out anyway-this is farcical-I've seen local Saturday Morning under 12's football tournaments better managed than this! I know the Spanish encourage a good siesta-but after the race not during!
And of all the tech wizardry that exists in the sport, the rubber advancements made by Michelin in Motogp were starting to really make a different to rubber available for the road, one of the only true benefits to the road rider filtering down. I can't help but notice BS hasn't really filtered much at all recently or ever........?
What we are seeing this year is the obvious down side of the sole tyre rule and indeed Dorna with the MSMAMORONS other choking regs. Even though this type of precession was not unheard of in the past with tyre competition, we tended to see at least a few other riders able to challenge-not too mention satellite efforts like KRJR and Elias getting up and amongst it. Now it seems in an age of incredible choice, the best riders, teams and bike manufactures in the world have far less options.
i don't disagree with most of this. The situation in 2007-2008 was perhaps complicated by michelin's financial travails at the time, so their ability to invest in their moto gp effort was compromised. However neither bridgestone nor michelin wanted a control tyre, and ducati actually wanted to switch to michelin as the decision was made. Now michelin, a rusted -on and long-term supporter of motogp and a natural fit with the sport (as opposed to sponsors like energy drink companies) is not there, and bridgestone look like going with the apparent cost savings having not kept them in the sport anyway.
My attitude to lorenzo is similar to yours, but I think in fairness no credit should be taken away from him, particularly as this annoyed me when applied to other riders in the past.
Joined Jul 2006
11K Posts | 291+
Texas
i agree with most on this whole page .... me
you know..... I bet the 990 torque would help burn up some tire
you know..... I bet the 990 torque would help burn up some tire
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
i agree with most on this whole page .... me
you know..... I bet the 990 torque would help burn up some tire
Not sure a flat spot in the centr of the tyre is what they are complaining about, and the 990's weren't that fast in the corners so, so it might be even worse for 990's
Joined Jul 2006
11K Posts | 291+
Texas
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
then let me put it this way....... Is it fair that, in prototype racing, if a rider/team are good enough to dictate to a tyre manufacturer what they need from their rubber to go faster, that they aren't allowed? And I'm not just talking about vr, it's safe to say that Nicky, Colin, Marcom and many others all performed far better on the 990's with no tyre limits. All were on Michelin.
This is suppose to be the worlds best motorcycle road racing, we should be seeing the best from the best in all facets and we are not. So is it fairer? once upon a time a satellite team could grab an engine, build a bike around it and taylor their tyre needs with a manufacturer to be competative, and they were. Now the rider and team have to build the bike and their riding styles around a very specific tyre.........fairer? Don't know about that. More expensive? Certainly. Entertaining? Certainly not.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
I don't think I'm taking credit away from Lorenzo 2010 (or Rossi 2002-3 or Stoner 2007) saying that such persistent one-way domination by one rider is always due to some kind of technical advantage. These are riders who would win races and championships anyway -- but it is always a technical advantage that transforms a frequent winner and potential champion into a total dominator and "sure" champion, in this sport. Then of course, when the rider enjoying such favorable circumstances happens to be one of our favorite riders we are happy, less when it's one we dislike
The clear example of that was Agostini in 1968-1972. He was capable of winning championships against Hailwood on Honda and Read on his own MV, so we have to give the highest credit to him -- but the years of his utter domination, when he won most of his titles, were marked by a strong technical advantage -- when he was left the only rider on the grid racing a real GP bike (due to the temporary withdrawal of all the Japanese manufacturers).
I don't think I'm taking credit away from Lorenzo 2010 (or Rossi 2002-3 or Stoner 2007) saying that such persistent one-way domination by one rider is always due to some kind of technical advantage. These are riders who would win races and championships anyway -- but it is always a technical advantage that transforms a frequent winner and potential champion into a total dominator and "sure" champion, in this sport. Then of course, when the rider enjoying such favorable circumstances happens to be one of our favorite riders we are happy, less when it's one we dislike
The clear example of that was Agostini in 1968-1972. He was capable of winning championships against Hailwood on Honda and Read on his own MV, so we have to give the highest credit to him -- but the years of his utter domination, when he won most of his titles, were marked by a strong technical advantage -- when he was left the only rider on the grid racing a real GP bike (due to the temporary withdrawal of all the Japanese manufacturers).
Sure, it is nearly axiomatic that anyone who has a really dominant season is both very good and has very good equipment. Previously only riders ultimately rated as great have had seasons such as stoner had in 2007 and lorenzo is having this year, but I don't disagree with your argument concerning the modern electronics on other threads and this may have changed, although i do hold some hope for stoner with honda.
Agostini was before my time but it seems he had an advantage as strong as anyone has ever had with the mv augusta, but he did manage the championship late in his career on the yamaha.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
I don't think that is what J4rno was implying, as you always tend to be the diplomat. I think its what you alluded to when you said it doesn't sit well when this has been the claim for other riders, namely, Stoner's dominant 07 performance chalked up to superior package. J4rno said, "technical advantage", thats implying he has something unfairly and disproportionately better than others. In other words, the inferior package of other rider's affecting their results detrimentally whereby making Lorenzo's performance slightly (and slyly) overrated and a bit discounted. Notwithstanding, I asked him to clarify above.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
That is evident to anybody who has eyes! Which does not mean it is an "unfair" advantage -- it can be just better setup exploiting the tires better, better tuning of the the TC, whatever. It is fact that the current Bridgestones have left all riders complaining, all BUT Lorenzo. Explain it the way you want, but the fact is there.
Unless of course you want me to believe that Lorenzo has 5 tenths/1 second up his right wrist, vis a vis riders like Rossi or Stoner. Such preposterous claims have only been made by your hated Rossi boppers for their idol, in the past, and I always considered them ridiculous. Have you become a Lorenzo bopper?
That is evident to anybody who has eyes! Which does not mean it is an "unfair" advantage -- it can be just better setup exploiting the tires better, better tuning of the the TC, whatever. It is fact that the current Bridgestones have left all riders complaining, all BUT Lorenzo. Explain it the way you want, but the fact is there.
Unless of course you want me to believe that Lorenzo has 5 tenths/1 second up his right wrist, vis a vis riders like Rossi or Stoner. Such preposterous claims have only been made by your hated Rossi boppers for their idol, in the past, and I always considered them ridiculous. Have you become a Lorenzo bopper?
Race times were amazing this year, Rossi's final lap in Brno 2003 was a 1.59.7, Lorenzo and pedders this year were the same.......
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